Todd Fletcher

John C Daley wrote:I would look in the Middle East where this sort of work is common.

There is some information, though not in detail, in Nader Khalili's books https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nader_Khalili

He's behind the Earthbag Superadobe domes, Cal Earth

Also, I've seen some PDFs either by or about Egyptian architect Hassan Fathy that went into more detail. The method described is a graphical calculation, done by a sort Euclidian drawing process, and doesn't use modern technical engineering techniques. I believe Fathy's Dar-El-Islam in New Mexico was designed with such techniques. No idea how they got building permits.

I forgot to mention one other technique I've encountered, fermented cactus juice.

Apparently the traditional recipe was used to restore the San Xavier Mission in Tucson, in the 1990s I think. In the 1950s it had been surfaced with cement stucco, they removed all that and had artisans from Mexico do the exterior plaster. They let the cactus sit in drums for a few weeks, then remove the slime and add it to the mix. It's said to smell horrible.

It would be interesting to know what their maintenance procedure is. It's a church in active use.

Great responses, Tadelakt looks like the thing to pursue first.

permies.com must be the only place on the internet you can ask a crazy question and get sane replies!

Thanks again.

I don't have any need, I'm stuck for the time being in an apartment with a drawing pad. I'm hoping to have land to actually, you know, do something later this year. And test it I will! And much else, at least if it seems worth doing.

We get 7" a year of rain where I am, I'm thinking of different "natural" materials to make a mud brick vaulted roof durable here, no Portland. In Iran they cover such roofs with square ceramic tiles that look a lot like the local Mexican tile. They also do a kind of trencadis. There's that possibility, like a patio floor on the roof. Lime plasters work for some. Seems like the raw earth roofs last maybe a year or two in Iran, with similar rainfall although I don't get any ice here in the low desert. So the thought came to me, hey what would it do if you could fire it as a whole, make one big tile, or like a big inverted teacup of it?

Have you heard of architect Leon Krier? He contrasts modern buildings with traditional by initial time investment vs building lifetime maintenance.  So modern buildings go up quickly but long term cost of maintenance is high. Traditional buildings are slow to put up, but cost a lot less over their lifetimes.

Now take this idea over to typical Arizona suburban home construction vs some natural building type for the climate. The additional time and labor to build an adobe vault roof vs the current prefab frame strut sandwich things has to be offset but much longer lifetime, to be a real alternative.

In sum, I'm wondering if that's possible, and if so what does it. For example, the method should provide at least 25 years before needing any real attention, that seems like a reasonable span. And at that point it shouldn't need a total replacement.

Nader Khalili fired the insides of raw mudbrick buildings in Iran, he called them Ceramic Houses. They would set up a large oil burner inside and let it go for 24 hours or something like that. The result hardened the interior to a kind baked-in-place finish. He doesn't seem to have pursued the idea, I'm not sure why but I think cheap Iranian oil was part of the scheme. He went on to found Cal-Earth in the US and develop superadobe.

Could the firing idea be applied to exteriors? I am wondering what would happen if you ran a blowtorch over a raw earthen plaster. Could you get it fired enough for good water repelling and stiffening? Is a blowtorch even hot enough? Would the plaster crack or fracture? How much would it cost? How much labor? How crazy is this?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artisanal_mining

I have no land and haven't done anything, but I've toyed with similar ideas. In Arizona, where I live,  there are lots of private mines that open up to rockhounds to go out and dig pits for fire agates, for example. I know there are many similar options for all kinds of materials. Slate for example. I've hiked many places that had vast amounts of usable slate just lying there. I'm nore interested in natural pozzolano. How do get it out in the quantity you need, etc, is the obvious problem.

My plan it to build with adobe, given the climate. I'm expecting to use the adobe pit on site as an irrigation cistern, or possibly a partial basement or sunken courtyard.

I don't know if this meets the "cheap" factor but they are big that's for sure. I've started seeing them around lately, Dept of Hwys has three of them off the 202 in Mesa for example, so they must handle the wind well enough

https://www.containercanopies.com/canopies

How big a home is in square feet and how it actually feels to occupy can be two different things. There are a lot of ideas to be had in this way from marine architecture, Japanese homes, peasant cottages and even modern RVs.

Wrap around shelving and cabinets from about elbow height on up to arm's length can free up a lot of space by allowing furniture to slide flush against the wall underneath, and storage up higher doesn't crowd the floor. Cabinets under stairs, pocket doors, thinner, vertical windows to let in as much light as wide but low ones without the impeding the floor layout as much, etc.

Christopher Alexander recommends actually making the access to rooms in a house circuitous and meandering, to lengthen the journey between rooms and make the small house feel larger without adding footage. This also makes the rooms feel more private. Varying ceiling and floor levels also will complexify the space and enlarge it by sense of variety and hierarchy. Also very important is the spacial effect of views on rooms and spaces, as in what's seen through a window. A narrow staircase might be enlarged by a well placed portal window with a distant view, for example.

All in all this is one more area where intensive design focus up front can build in permanent, low maintenance assets, and with a repeatable design to amortize costs. But it has to be done with practicality of materials and construction in mind, so as to make a truly affordable and useful building and not a precious dollhouse.

John C Daley wrote:I think you are correct in assuming its a site an Engineer would love.
Storm water is now being considered an asset in some places as we learn to use it rather than dump it in the nearest river and cause flooding.

In Arizona, the city of Mesa has shown some intelligence here. The suburban neighborhoods at higher elevations are sprinkled with holding basins of an acre or two, maybe 15-25 feet deep at the max. The streets and storm drains empty into these. They have overflows but no outlets, typically they fill to half in heavy summer rain. From there, they simply drain slowly into the ground. The basins are grassy and used for sports fields or whatever the rest of the time, and are nicely planted with tall eucalypts. It's extensive too, I have no idea how many basins there are but it must be many hundreds. Seems like a pretty low maintenance program too.

We get avg 7" rain here but that falls mostly in a few heavy storms. These basins control the flood and preserve it.

Wow, what a great response, this place really does rock!

It sounds like the potential benefits in insulation are not needed in my climate, the thick solid walls doing the job and being structurally sound. I wouldn't consider it for the lower brick count alone, not worth the risk.

I've heard of double walled barns in Colorado, perhaps rat trap would have some use for those folks.

Yes, I've considered a metal roof shade! In my area metal roof 2 car carports are within my budget.

Basic plan is: take a year off, move to the land in camper while I build it all up. I have a couple of sons who can be badgered into helping. But it's at least a year or two off; I have not bought the land yet.

Thanks again for the super helpful response!

Todd