Ned Harr

We have a garden in our back yard, about 400 sqft or so, and in the center of it is a bathtub-sized pond. We love the pond, it is home to frogs and dragonflies and pollinators, which in turn attract birds, and the whole scene there is enchanting and lovely.

But some kind of grassy weed has taken over, first around the edges of the pond and now it’s colonized the whole garden. We can rip out as much of it as we like but it grows back seemingly overnight. Somehow it’s also taken over a raised bed in a totally different part of the property, so the pond might be incidental.

I think it might be nimblewill or crabgrass. Looking for suggestions on how to tame it without the use of either poisons or unreasonable amounts of labor.

I use this voltage tester, made by Amprobe:


If I touch that white tip to a wire and it doesn't light up, I can safely touch the conductor. No false negatives. That's why my boss and I swear by this tester.

Sometimes the tip lights up even though it's just a couple volts and I wouldn't have gotten hurt. I learn that usually because it doesn't make sense it should light up so I pull out a voltmeter instead. Better a false positive than a false negative.

Now, what's funny is different electricians have different (strong) opinions on voltage testers. First time I took out the above tester around this other electrician who isn't my boss, but who I work with occasionally, he sneered and called it "the widowmaker". Yet that's what my boss calls the type of tester that guy uses! My boss has a better argument though, which is that the Amprobe tester has no moving parts and thus nothing to fail. (The AA battery in it lasts usually longer than the life of the tester, maybe longer than the life of the electrician!)

Jackson Bradley wrote:I imagine most folks are comfortable changing things "like for like". You can find the breaker, turn it off, take a picture of the outlet or switch wiring, and install the new one. Doing that may spur you on the figure out why the outlet is a GFCI or not

Be aware that not all devices are configured the same. Sometimes on a GFCI the line-side lugs are closest to the ground lug, sometimes the load lugs are closest to ground and the line lugs are on the far end. This trips up electricians, so I'm sure it can trip up DIY homeowners. Same goes for many other components.

Most newer house breaker boxes have a main breaker that cuts power to all of the breakers but your incoming service will still be hot unless you can kill it at the meter base. Doing things in the meter base  (if it is a combo base with a meter and some breakers) is in a similar category.

The latest code says that the main shutoff actually must be outside next to the service entrance, though there is still often a main breaker in the main panel. If you open the outdoor shutoff (only brand new houses, or newly renovated houses will have this) then the feeder wires going into your main panel will be dead and safe to work on. You could do this to change your whole panel. If you just shut off the main breaker in the panel, then your bus bars will be dead but your main lugs will still be hot. You could safely work on your branch circuits this way, but you could not safely do a panel change.

Rocking a meter out is NOT in the same category as shutting off your main breaker. For one thing, it is a delicate task because you need to keep the line-side lugs connected so as to not alert the power company that you are fiddling with their equipment or your service, while safely keeping the load-side lugs disconnected so you can do your work without the meter slipping back in and energizing the main feeders without your intending it.

For another thing, if you do accidentally alert the power company and they send someone out to see what's going on, if there is a union journeyman electrician there to tell them "Sorry, just doing a panel change, didn't want to bother you, stern warning please" they will be more likely to oblige than if they show up and find Joe Schmoe Amateur; in the latter case they're going to be very unhappy and might take further action against you.

For a third thing, you are dealing with a full 100, 200, or 400 amps on the line side lugs of a meter, and if those slip out of position you could have an arc flash. When my boss and I do panel changes on older homes, even if I am doing the bulk of the work myself, he will at least rock the meter out for me and put it back again at the end, because it takes extra skill and practice. I'm at well over 2000 hours of experience in electrical work but I am not yet ready to do that particular task. PLEASE DO NOT ATTEMPT TO ROCK OUT A METER ON YOUR OWN UNLESS YOU ARE A HIGHLY EXPERIENCED ELECTRICIAN.

Anne Miller wrote:I would add my suggestion of getting a job that works with electricity.  Not necessarily as an electrician.

I 50% agree with this. My #1 recommendation after electrician would actually be not HVAC or other specialist, but to work for a remodeler or house flipper. You can generalize some electrical knowledge as a specialist but it will take a while and much of it might not be applicable to your own projects. A remodeler or house flipper on the other hand...

But there's a catch: there are many remodelers and house flippers who are hacks and will teach you to do things wrong. So you've gotta find one who knows his/her stuff and who takes pride in the quality of the work. You might discern some of that by asking questions like "What is your level of experience with electrical work in particular?" As William Bagwell said, and I would vouch for this too, people who know "just enough to be dangerous" often are.

Again, if you have questions about electrical work, feel free to ask me here on Permies (remember, photos help) and I'll answer as best I can. I visit the forums at least once every few days and typically browse according to topic, with an eye out for "Electrical".

In my opinion, the best possible way to learn DIY electrical is to follow a journeyman* service** electrician around for a couple weeks and learn on the job. After that amount of time as an electrical apprentice, I felt ready to take on a simple side job that would have been equivalent 1.5 points toward Paul's Straw Badge for electrical.

If you don't have that kind of time to spare (and who does?) my next choice would be Youtube. Find videos that are as close as possible to what you are trying to do. Skim comments first to make sure you're not seeing a bunch of people saying stuff like "I'm an electrician and this is a terrible/dangerous way to do this".

I have found ElectricianU (Youtube channel) is a pretty good resource for general knowledge. Never tried it for particulars ("how to do X"), but I'm sure if they offer that kind of content it's solid.

The problem with books is that they may be out of date; the National Electrical Code is updated every three years to keep up with changes in technology and safety standards, for good reason. If you're going to go from a book that's fine, but make sure it's been published recently (like, it should at least not be talking about cloth-sheathed wire and stuff) and if possible try to verify that its author is a qualified authority.

And of course if anyone here has questions about electrical work, feel free to reach out to me! As long as I'm around I will be happy to answer as best I can.

*"journeyman" means "has at least 4-5 years of experience and probably knows what he/she is doing". Yes, the word "man" can refer to either sex; the language of the trades is still in the process of modernizing beyond the gender norms of the past.

**"service" means an electrician who goes around and installs or fixes stuff in different kinds of places, whether houses, office buildings, warehouses, or what have you. This is a distinct kind of electrician from one who works exclusively in factories, or in new construction, etc.

C. Letellier wrote:I have wanted to play with it for building retaining walls.  But actually having done it not yet.  My test brick has done 4 years out in the weather and still looks good but that is all the farther I have gone.

As for panels no but large bricks there is a you tube video on a machine that makes large cob bricks that interlock sort of like Legos  From the video they are roughly 1 foot x 1 foot x 2 feet.  The argument for them was how hard they were pressed together supposedly making then very durable

Pressing cob/adobe into lego-like bricks is another idea I've heard a little about and want to learn more. Do they need mortar between them? Do you dry them first, or stack them wet? Presumably they are stacked offset; what about half-bricks at the ends of courses? What about over windows and doorways? Do you use metal lintels?

Cristobal Cristo wrote:Ned,

What would you gain by having a panel covered with thin cob? Cob is heavy, cheap if collected on-site and works as thermal mass if applied thickly.
If the panel had a brittle minimum of 5 cm of cob on each side and let's say it would be 1x1 m then already it would weigh around 200 kg (440 lbs). Some machinery would be needed to lift and install within already preconstructed frame.

I guess I was imagining it as an alternative to drywall. But yeah, it would still be way heavier.

Thanks, everyone for your comments.

Thanks Scott Lawhead, for letting me know someone is indeed doing this. I will check those out.

This is a Frankenstein’s monster comment replying in one fell swoop to the whole thread up to this point.

What do I mean by “engineered panels”:

By “engineered panels” I mean something manufactured (probably all in one location) offsite to precise specs, then brought to the site for permanent assembly. I was not thinking of SIPs as the only example of this, but they are one example of this. Panels used as infill between framing members could be another example, even if each panel is one wythe of an insulated wall with the insulation provided separately.


Insulation:

I’ve asked on this very forum about insulating with styrofoam, and the consensus seemed to be that styrofoam can catch on fire and then release poisonous fumes, which is a showstopper for using it in houses, or in houses made out of insulated panels.

Like Jay Angler however, lately I too have wondered about using styrofoam as insulation—-but in a slab or basement floor. From an environmental standpoint it would be a most useful sequestering, I’d think.

Joinery:

I’m not familiar with how engineered panels are joined; I imagine many methods are possible, and it’s a matter of finding an optimal way of doing it given the materials, the form of the panels, and what skills, tools, and materials are available at the assembly site.


Panel composition:

I guess I was thinking about adobe/cob etc. more in terms of mixtures and qualities than in terms of what form they’re typically given. But it’s true, typical natural earthen walls are very thick, and thicker at the bottom than at the top. They probably weigh a million and a half pounds each. You can’t just stack up walls like that on a flatbed.

This maked me wonder, though, could you spread a layer of (e.g.) cob over a sandwich of materials that includes hardware cloth on the outside (to act like rebar), various control layers (vapor barrior, insulation, etc.) under that, and framing and insulation in the middle, to create a panel that, once dried/cured/etc., can be moved and installed somewhere else?

Would those still be prohibitively heavy? Too brittle? Could the brittleness be reduced by changing the mixture of ingredients?

I’ll have to check out Scott Lawhead’s examples to see how they pull it off.


Why I’m asking:

I’ve heard it said of construction: good, cheap, fast — pick 2.

I know that one set of reasons to build with adobe, cob, etc. has to do with the low barrier to entry, with all the cost being on the time & effort side. If you have the time and can make the effort, you get the material advantages of adobe/cob/etc. This is great if you value Good & Cheap but don’t care about Fast.

But what if instead you are more interested in the qualities of earthen materials, and you don’t mind renting a crane in exchange for the advantage of a relatively fast and easy assembly? Or from the producer end, what if you want to offer a competitive natural alternative to people who might otherwise go with SIPs or conventional construction? You are interested in Good & Fast, and Cheap is less of a concern. (Again, it’s cool to know someone is doing this.)

Alternatively, maybe it would be possible to make a bunch of your own panels in one place, and then transport them to another place in instances/locations where building walls the traditional way would be more difficult?

Hopefully the thread title is self-explanatory.

Wondering if anyone makes engineered panels of natural* earthen construction?

And if so, where can I get more info?

*I'm using "natural" in a strictly nominal way, to refer to construction methods and materials commonly bearing that marketing designation. I have wordier thoughts about the concept of "nature" and the terms derived from it, but those aren't relevant here.

Daphne Rose wrote:Since most young people can’t afford land anymore* it’s waaay harder for us to get into permaculture.

To me the term "permaculture" has never necessarily meant "fully self-sustaining off-grid homestead situated on many acres of desirable land" or anything similar. In fact I just now discovered there is a page on this very site for permaculture skills you can pick up even if you live in an apartment: https://permies.com/t/129955/PEA-Permaculture-Experience-Apartment-dwellers

Now, if you've set as your criteria a fully detached single-family home surrounded by enough land to have a decent garden, I don't blame you, and the good news is it is probably within reach. [Caveat: I am basing this on the US. It might be a very different situation in other countries, though I suspect there are still at least some basic similarities.] As long as you don't care too much about being necessarily in the most trendy geographical areas or dwelling in a fancy mansion, there are lots of options that should be affordable for a young person with a steady job, especially if you are able/willing to learn more of the skills that save you money and make you more independent. I see examples all the time when I'm browsing Zillow.

The "steady job" and "able/willing to learn" part is critical, but I think it covers the vast majority of young people. Also, I'll just say because this was not obvious to me when I was young, there are some jobs where you start at low pay but are much more likely to advance to high pay relatively quickly; in my experience the skilled trades are like this while jobs like cashiering and customer service is not.

Daphne Rose wrote:Or we can discuss alternatives to ownership like ecovillages, and encourage activism.
* I don’t mean to discourage anyone this is just my experience. But I think maybe we need to focus less on ownership.

I am all for carefully and critically examining how we approach Stuff (not just ownership of, but use of, want of, need for, and attachment to). Really, the very way we structure our lives and our society in material terms ought to be fair game for questioning. I expect most people would exit that examination process with something fairly close to what they went in with, but it's still a good practice, and it may lead to more happiness & community, and less waste. But I don't think the reason for doing this should be based on the discouraging assertion, which I disagree with, that land is unaffordable to young people.

Last night I had, for the first time, a dream with a comedic element in it that caused me to wake up and laugh—more than once.

In the dream, my drummer’s former bandmates (who in real life I was friendly with) were conflated with some of our real-life mutual friends from high school days. In the dream they had come together to form a joke band, and had decided to call it Lead Zep’lin’, spelled exactly like that, with the apostrophes. They pronounced “Lead” like “leed”.

This hilarious band name is what caused me to wake up laughing the first time. I still giggle to recall it.

Once I fell back asleep, I kept having other dreams, and in them I would tell people I met about that band name, then wake myself up laughing again. I think it happened at least two more times.