What would be best ways to attract more young people to permaculture?

Like in subject, I;m not sure whats the average age of a permie here, but I would t be surprised that its a bunch of older folks in here,
I've seen post "gen z permies", so I dont say there is no interest at all, but my question is what would be more dynamic engaging environment
that would be more attractive to youngsters to get interested in permaculture as concept and as way of living?

https://permies.com/t/270112/Gen-Permies

If I wanted to attract more young people to permaculture I would offer my time to the school to make presentations, demonstrations, etc.

Teaching them is the best way ...

My dream is to get some working systems in place, then be able to offer summer internships that include housing. Young people need help economically and with building life skills like how to repair things and grow food. It's also the beginning of a mindset shift to start considering different ways of living and working. Actually living in it for an extended period of time and getting to see *something* you planted or built go from nothing to a real living plant or working structure is a much more meaningful experience than just learning about it. You also get the real world experience of things not working as expected and that's ok too, you can keep going and try again.

The key is it must be economically viable enough to pay them at least a decent part time wage and provide housing and food. I expect to "lose money" on the internship part even though they would be helping with the work but overall I should have enough resources to provide for them and the system should be profitable enough to pay their salary as well as at least 30% food otherwise I don't feel I'd be in a position to teach them things that will help them personally survive and thrive in this world.

This isn't to say permaculture isn't worth doing for other reasons but those are my personal philosophies when it comes to mentorship of young people who are trying to figure out a path to survive in this world and help the planet at the same time.

Part of the difficulty of engaging younger generations now is that the revolutionary aspects of permaculture have indeed been exceedingly well disguised as "gardening" - and perhaps lost or neglected in the polyculture of practical ideals of the movement, in a time when even median teenagers recognize the rapid critical breakdown of status quo systems and norms that demand radical alternatives.

There is a real deep challenge in addressing large scale / systemic change in ways that steer toward stable outcomes through many small and large efforts, and sustain focus over the time required to take effect. But losing that focus, failing at those outcomes, and tempering ambitions back to the level of discretionary aesthetics and lifestyle choices inside an insulated bubble is a betrayal of basic ethics that does little to inspire or empower others.

Grey hairs here.
I don't think Permies is the best place to attract young people.
It's very intimidating to them. Putting your thoughts on 'paper', where everybody can read how inexperienced you sound, forever and ever. Only to get told how it's not what you think, back to school, boy!
Cause eh, you come from school where most are kept prisoner by the ever-repeated lie of an easy bright future, and you know nothing about nothing but books when you left, just parotting what the book said, no critical thinking skills. Ok they know of computers and social media a lot better, but not about gardening or anything related.
And because they know of social media, that's where they gather. Instagram, snap chat, tik-tok ,telegram, name it. Endless lists of chit-chat and visually pleasing (nonsense) coming by in a stream, there they say things to each other. That is where Permies should be if it wants to attract youngsters to a Permaculture lifestyle. Time is ripe, because they're down and out, depressed and repressed as no generation has ever been.
They need our help, or better guidance, more than ever. And we need their energy, and enthusiasm and young strong bodies more than ever.

This is a good question.

I think perm is still attractive enough. I mean, it never gets old eating the best food, transforming your space into abundance.  For some people, there is a a certain point where it can become just work. But even then it will always be a rewarding work. But not monetarily.  Yeah, exceptions.. but the biggest fail point I hear/read is that you can't pay your bills very well.  So this doesn't really answer your op,

But I think its important to understand what you are asking of people.  As a wwoofer you don't make anything.  As a starting farmer, you make debt.  Once you are established you can then start paying your bills.  Now I am not saying you don't get paid in other ways the moment you walk out of your pdc or step into your own community based project.  

So ultimately, yes, there is a solution to this that lies with system change.  But you can't hold your breath for that.  And I couldn't tell you here that there is something that needs to change with perma.  This is all just f4t.  

As far as OPs ?, you got to ask them.

Casey McGriff wrote:.  Now I am not saying you don't get paid in other ways the moment you walk out of your pdc or step into your own community based project.  

Ways of overcoming the fear of failure, of being seen to be a failure if you don't have stuff? I suspect this holds many people back from taking the leap. Money gives security as well; unless you start on the family farm, having a place where your efforts pay off is difficult. Maybe more grass roots organisations with communal efforts are needed, where people (young and older) can be part of a greater effect than they are able alone?

I do believe there's a tremendous untapped opportunity for a non-extractive aka regenerative income engine for younger, competent, enterprising permies based on an adaptation of the 'real estate flip' model of property (re)development in areas with a few key ingredients that will support a market niche for well conceived permaculture-inoculated homes and habitats on previously undervalued or degraded property! Lots of people are or will be seeking alternative, resilient, abundant dwelling spaces, and would gladly do so through a monetary investment/premium in part, versus the extensive study, sweat, sidetracks, and search required to navigate it all from the get-go on their own.

Some more thoughts and sketching on this here:

https://permies.com/t/235002/Ways-Investing-World

I challenge the idea that younger generations are somehow not inherently interested in Permaculture and related ideas.  To the contrary, a great many of my students are highly interested in my stories about gardening.  When students hear that I essentially make my own topsoil by chipping up wood and feeding it to mushrooms.

Some of my students take this to heart and go and try something on their own.  If they succeed, unfortunately I am probably no longer their teacher so my feedback is sketchy.

More problematic though is that most students who really take this to heart have access to a real garden.  Moreover, since many of my students are about to head off to college, gardening (the Permies gateway drug!) isn’t something on their horizon until they own their own home—which is becoming increasingly difficult.

I do think that there is a receptive High School audience that would really get intrigued if they could see Permies as profitable—and as had already been noted, a lot of us are gray haired and finally have time to garden,


I think that Anne hit the nail on head when she said that she was willing to go into schools to introduce the concept of Permies to students.


Overall, I see real potential here.



Eric

In all reality if you really want to interest kids start them as soon as they can walk. Learning to grow things teaches them in more ways than you can imagine!

larry kidd wrote:In all reality if you really want to interest kids start them as soon as they can walk. Learning to grow things teaches them in more ways than you can imagine!

Yes! My parents taught me foraging (ramps and fiddleheads) and mushroom hunting from a very young age. I ended up learning almost all the plants in the region (near enough) and plant medicine, at least, and getting a bit into permaculture too, not to mention the other sorts of projects I have going on.

Phew, lots of geezer talk around here. If I were 16-22, awash in hormones and angst and uncertainty, the essential question on my mind would be: How will permaculture help me get laid?

Douglas Alpenstock wrote:How will permaculture help me get laid?

source

Being able to grow stuff and make things is a form of 'magic' and for some people definitely an attractive trait! One of the things that attracted me to my husband was that when he took things apart and reassembled them, not only did they start working again, but he didn't have the odd few bits left over which many people seem to end up with!

The knowledge to have the right tools to hand, and how to use them.
Making fire in a rocket mass heater and heating your home with a handful of twigs....
The ability to find food in a wilderness is also pretty sexy.

I grew up participating in Boy Scouts, which in its own right was fun, but what I was really yearning for was learning the skills that are so often discussed here.

The SKIP program is a way to not only learn those skills, but to do it on my own time. This however might still be a roadblock for some folks ability to learn, especially when they are younger and less confident in themselves.

I believe that younger folks might need some handholding to get them started, but how to achieve that is up in the air.

I am millennial years old. Not necessarily a concrete plan, but I think showing young (or old) people that permaculture is a different way and you could say opposes big ag, big lawn, etc.. I tend to spread the word casually, say at work, give people some seeds and veggies.

It's a way to be different and stand out from the crowd

Tie it to the FIRE movement? Tie it to environmental activism? To actual independence?

Demonstrate the benefits, immediate and long-term for the environment, to their health, their finances... that's the same for everyone. Show permaculture as something other than a one-way, complete immersion path?

It's a journey, not an "end point?" There's many ways to have it, or some of it.

I don't think of myself as a "real" permie for a lot of reasons. Still, I get a lot of benefit from reading/thinking about how to uncouple myself from the crap production/selling, consume, and repeat cycle. I learn how to use less energy, eat cleaner food, raise more of my own, etc.

It's not all or nothing. Get someone to use cloth rags instead of paper towels, and you've succeeded. Get someone to make over a piece of clothing, ditto. Get someone to bake a loaf of bread.

Etc.

Along this line: why don't we (generic we, not Paul, etc.) sponsor baking contests? Work with 4H/young farmers to help them learn skills more quickly/easily, or show them alternatives? Why not work with state Ag departments to show home food gardens that are perhaps more productive using Ruth Stout's methods, or, or, or....

I only kinda know what a wolfati is or what it might be used for, don't really understand why you'd want a very tall hugel, have no interest in peeing outdoors, etc. But I have a LOT of interest in baking bread quickly that's more nutritious, growing food more easily, being less dependent on my auto, keeping more money in the bank instead of giving it to (company) for something I can make myself, etc.

The way you learn to be a nuclear scientist doesn't start with building bombs, it starts with a kid learning 2+2. If you gave the 6 yo kid the formulae for the bomb, they'd say "I can't do that." Permies isn't all that different.

If there's resistance/aggression on viewing advanced permaculture, then why focus on that as what you're trying to teach? The BBs are much friendlier.

One thing to note is that the older generations create the matrix in which the younger generations grow up and develop, to some extent. I think the fact that more of older people are into permaculture is not a problem, although I used to. Now I think it’s likely a more sustainable way to go about it. The older permies have gone through all the easy and the hard parts and young people can look to them for direction. Oftentimes older people find more sustainable ways of doing things out of necessity and that could save some headaches for the young.

Maieshe Ljin wrote:One thing to note is that the older generations create the matrix in which the younger generations grow up and develop, to some extent.

The past two posts are inching closer I think.  The paradigm that has been created is a debt system.  Permaculture is an abundance system.  The internet is actually an abundance system (debatably so). (Just thought of that last note, so I will have to think on it before i can form it into this conversation)

Now that debt I am referring to has led to some amazing achievements socially, infrastructure, and opportunity.  But the cost has been environment, relationships, and body/mind resiliency etc.  And they are constantly trying to be paid back.  But,, are they, and how?

This is where I like the bake-off ideas and integretating with already existing ranchers/ farmers and generally socially available events.  Pop up events at homes, in yards.  Creating space for education as engagement.  This is a form of paying it back.  This is what led me to believe that it was possible to get out of the paradigm in the first place.  (That's whole nother story).  But these solutions must be made with long-term in mind.  How, when the debt (and sure finance is included) shows little slowing down?  Thats what localcommunity interaction and even individuals must figure it out.  Strong community bases that allow for newcomers to come/go without much effect on the presented experiences.

I do think permaculture will always be in the environmental movement category, even though its really about human beings.  So thats good.

But organizations help scale these activities up and many times make them long-term, but un-incorporated individs,, can have just as much impact with less,,, whats the term in electronics,,?? um,  ,,,  with less resistance.  

This has been fun blabbing with all you on this topic. It really is hard to see all the younger guys as anything other than screwed thru the lens of most of the paradigms that exist.  So its nice to read people who still care and found (finding) success in this world.  

I was about to list out what's worked from me based on experience with my three kids, but now I'm realizing it's sort of pointless. Permaculture is naturally attractive on its own; just do permaculture activities and when kids see it they'll want to as well.

I apologize, as I haven't read the other responses so I'll bet someone has said this already, but...

The reason this happens, I think, is because permaculture activities are all aligned to very basic and universal human drives. Money-saving, simplicity, peace & calmness, greenery, delicious food, fun, personal growth, etc. And all in an enduring and balanced way!

To make an analogy, if the modern western industrialized world is fake Red Juice simulacrum Berry Blast flavor in a plastic tube, permaculture is a handful of fresh raspberries still warm from the sun that ripened them. Unlike the former, the latter need no marketing or slogans or cartoon mascots to communicate their appeal.

Kids are pulled in all sorts of directions, by their parents, by their teachers, by the broader society, and especially by their immediate peer group, and I'm not into fighting against all these forces. In fact I'd venture to say it'd be un-permaculturalist to do so. Instead, just "do permaculture" where kids can see you and most of them will be interested most of the time. And those who aren't now might be later, or at least they'll have had the exposure.

Remember how many different people you were between early childhood and middle adulthood. Tens? Dozens? Hundreds? And we are still becoming new people every day. There are plenty of opportunities to discover the joys of gardening, woodworking, cooking, creating, or whatever else under the permaculture umbrella. Let permaculture's attractive forces flow out through visibility, that's the important part I think if your aim is to get others interested.

I am going to loosely respond to a collection of posts and give some of my personal observations.

As I earlier stated, I have a great many number of students who would be strongly drawn to a Permies lifestyle if they saw a sustainable income attached to the idealistic principles.  I think this is more achievable than many would initially suppose, but there are some hurdles in the way and the greatest of these hurdles runs smack into broader generational and demographic trends for at least the last 30 years.  For the moment I will reference my home state of Illinois, but the basic principles are at play across the United States (how much across the world, I cannot say).

Growing up, and even up to the point when I started teaching, the state of Illinois had a population of around 12 million people.  And during that time, the population was roughly evenly split between the Chicago area, its suburbs & exurbs, and the rest of the state.  Recently I had reason to check this population split again and the difference just about took my breath away when I saw it.  Presently, that broader Chicago zone now holds about 3/4 or of the state’s population or 9 million out of 12 million!  This is despite the fact that Chicago itself is actually depopulating.  The suburbs are being filled to the brim with Illinois residents moving from both Chicago proper and downstate Illinois (anywhere in Illinois outside of Chicago, even areas north of Chicago!).  I then took a look at Google Earth and I could see what the stats were already telling me—I could see endless tracts of land that had been converted from fields into housing developments.  For those wondering how I can see it, new housing developments have virtually no trees, but one of the first things a new homeowner does—especially in one of these homes—is to start planting trees in the yard.  Basically, new home construction can be dated by tree growth.

What I am getting at here is that one of, if not the greatest barriers to entry into a Permie lifestyle that would earn money is the cost of owning some amount of arable land.  And for 3/4 of the Illinois population, the idea of what the price per acre of land is will be dictated by the price of land in the rapidly expanding Chicago metro region.

By contrast, downstate land prices can be much, much lower, but one must be willing to move to these areas—probably a substantial distance from Chicago and its suburbs.

I think that the economic case for Permaculture can be made more easily to these young adults—especially as they consider career paths—if the economic barriers can come down.  We have all seen videos about how some market gardener manages to make $100,000 from a single acre of land.  The money is there, but the economic obstacles are significant.  If lower costs can be demonstrated, I think the potential attraction of Permaculture only grows.

And so far I am only looking at one, narrow example of Permaculture.  But I think that if even this specific case can be made then other, broader, more expansive definitions of Permaculture become viable as well.

At any rate, these are my 2 cents.  Fire away if you disagree!!


Eric

I am guessing it is daunting to be a permaculture parent of young children too. The pressure is doubled or tripled perhaps. In my area there are homeschool groups that come together for activities (art and storytelling in the closest one) and give the parents a break for a little while while the children can socialise and play. These groups tend to have a permaculture hue to them. Even amongst schooled children there is a sense of community to the parents of them.

In Vermont things are already leaning into organic culture so I grew up with all sorts of nature programs, the elementary schools sent us on camping trips and educational visits to the forests and wild places. One organization acquired a chunk of mature hilly forest and is partnering with one school for nature education and other such. It really does help when the overall culture is conducive. A lot of is just connecting green people together. There are more than you think once you delve into it.

Maieshe Ljin wrote:One thing to note is that the older generations create the matrix in which the younger generations grow up and develop, to some extent.  

Good point and one that is often overlooked.

Quite possibly one Could ask; What can I do personally to move this cause along in my household, then community, then other communities if desired/possible.

It is a slow process and ultimately, there has to be a philosophy shift in a persons mind to pursue non conventional processes. One way that can happen is through your example and words when explaining it to folks in your circles because they see your example.

Hands on, libraries, offer field trips or tours in schools. Events, etc. Park meetups. Maybe a coordination meetup events for single parents with children about permaculture...

They are glued to technology so they need something hands on to show them that nature is way better.

Not all just generalizing.

Dear All, Would you mind taking a look at the two possibilities below?

NOTES ON APPLICATION: an unpaid broker (me to start and then others?) makes connections between homesteaders and learners. Quality learners are found through worldwide church network.

1. Offer "free for work" learner family stays on homesteads (maybe they camp) AND the unpaid broker asks the family to tip the homesteader...the families supply their own food.

AND/OR

2. young men learners do "free for work" stays and are coached by broker on how to bring in their own food...broker asks for young men to look for ways to get tips for the homesteader.

I spoke to a permie in here a while back. Something he told me stuck with me. What do you have in abundance? And what do you lack?

Any arrangement you want to learn, there's gotta be something you have to offer whether it's your manpower or skills trades that the other person you would like to learn from may lack or want to learn as well.

That's community. Think of a group of islands.

One island grows, tomatoes, one peppers, one builds chicken coops, etc. each islands has its thing it's good and thus there will be something that island needs.

Children and young folks are very hands on. They need to explore get dirty and try things to get things to stuck inside them forever. Or else they won't care. This movement or lifestyle ain't cool lol. It's hard work. But it's rewarding and worth it and you build a legacy. And once you master it yes it can be fun and enjoyable. I think they need to see and feel that for themselves rather than someone trying to convince them, and it sure helps when they see others their own age group too.

Getting dirty learning, making mistakes, trying new things outta be fun or else you won't savor the experience. Thats all rooted in love. You have to spark that love within someone to care about themselves, their neighbor, their community, the world etc. If we master it within ourselves, it resonates outward to others. Much love the children and young folks are really the key right now. A lot of us are spiritually tired and frustrated because we are ones doing the detaching, deprogramming and detox from the current lifestyle. It's really tough at times. Fighting lots opposition, family friends coworkers etc. Most people think getting back to nature is crazy or odd. But that what our ancestors did and we are so out of tune with that it's so sad.

We make the sacrifices, then pass the wisdom to the young, they will surely take off to the sky and that our payoff. Not in money or material things, it's that feeling we are all doing our part take care of the earth as fellow planet keepers. That we may be able to all see life go on.

Much love y'all.

Get in a time machine and go back 60 years. Then unrig the system.

Boomers could afford a place to live and maybe even some land. Not so much the case for a majority of post Boomers.

Most people I know who would be interested in PC can't even afford a shitty apartment without a roommate or two. And even then they have to work a crappy job to fund Boomer retirement accounts. The game is rigged.

Wheaton Labs bootcamp and deep roots seems like one way that might help.

Eric Hanson wrote:

As I earlier stated, I have a great many number of students who would be strongly drawn to a Permies lifestyle if they saw a sustainable income attached to the idealistic principles.  

Eric you are probably correct about the income part.

Are the students not interested in living a sustainable life for themselves and their future family?

J Katrak wrote:Get in a time machine and go back 60 years. Then unrig the system.

Boomers could afford a place to live and maybe even some land. Not so much the case for a majority of post Boomers.

Most people I know who would be interested in PC can't even afford a shitty apartment without a roommate or two. And even then they have to work a crappy job to fund Boomer retirement accounts. The game is rigged.

I don't have any opinion on whether "the system" is rigged. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't, maybe it defends on what "the system" is. I for one don't feel like any system has control of me. It's simply a matter of choices.

Assuming "people" refers to adults in the US who can legally work here--I've only lived here as an adult, and can't speak about other places--I do not see the evidence that most people can't afford a place to live and some land. Most of those making such a claim, I bet, could take steps to afford it within a few years, if it's something they wanted, but they choose to afford other things.

Maybe someone is telling young people the system is rigged and that they can't afford anything, and young people hear this and believe it and repeat it because this makes it someone else's fault if they don't easily get everything they want? Definitely if you want to attract people to Permaculture, tell them this is not true. Permaculture is all about making choices so that you can afford a place to live and some land.

Yeah, telling people they have no chance is not very good motivation.

On another note, we are still talking about the financial aspect as the weakness in permaculture development or at least it seems to be the biggest hurdle. Making a living is important,, but many people I have seen try to cross that border end up losing or at least compromising the permaculture ethics. (no judgment here if this has happened)

Permaculture has to be like a walk in the woods.  Enjoy the air, the soil.  It is free, but it still appreciates your breath back (saving seeds for you and your neighbors garden for next year), your protection (maybe in the form of land ownership).
A companion to your life that is found most beneficial as a perspective (w action) to be shared.

I don't have any particular solutions I want to share for this conundrum and I wish all the best to those that have succeeded financially. But overall, its longevity seems to be more related to it coming through in your life and out into the world being taught as another tool.

And then those with the extra work ethic+desire can take it to that financial level.  

This thread seems now related to this thread...

https://permies.com/t/285115/sufficient-land