the gut wrenching choices about future energy stuff

Today I am at the top of reddit.  Yay!  I posted an AMA.  It ran late and I had to go to bed.  I woke up to lots of dark stuff, but am making the best of it.  This is a moment to infect brains.  

One comment:

He's been peddling this for a while. It's a very niche idea, and like many enthusiasts he acts like it's a secret invention that will change the world. It has issues and I don't think it's the amazing thing he says it is.

Notice he's essentially against renewable energy and solar.

And my response

When I was a young fella I worked as a lowly librarian for the northwest power planning council. I got to read all the white papers, all the proposals ... all of the environmental disaster reports for every type of energy for four states. I got to hear the other people working there try to come up with solutions that don't have environmental disasters. This stuff is super duper hard.

The real solution ... the constant elephant in the room ... the butt of all uncomfortable jokes ... conservation. What if people just used less? "They won't." But ... "no" but ... "never."

Mmm-kay ... some people use about a tenth of the energy of average. What are their lives like?

What if a picture can be painted showing an even more luxuriant life with a tenth of the average? What if I could make a hundred little pictures that are a hundred little flavors, all using much less? What if I could make a list of suggestions where each suggestion shows something that can add luxury to your life and/or saves a lot of cash? Conservation without sacrifice? Conservation that adds luxury. What if?

I am "peddling" many things. Including "peddling."

Rocket mass heaters are purely renewable.

I am not against solar. I am for recipes for conservation.

Of course, that guy is a troll and will just say crazy stuff.

But I think there is a thread of truth in there.  I do not advocate big hydro - they are fish blenders and there are problems with silt building up behind the dams.   There are environmental problems with solar, wind, nuclear, natural gas ...  all of them.  Further still, I use electricity every day.  I very much enjoy electricity.  I'm using electricity right now to type this.

What am I for?  

At the northwest power planning council it was looking like demand for energy would be going up 7%.  And it looked like the thing to do would be nuclear.  If only people could find ways to cut 7%.  

25% of the homes in montana heat with electric heat.  What if half of those switched to a rocket mass heater?

Solving the conservation problem is nearly impossible.  It will take a lot of time.  And it will take millions of small conversations.  But I think we are, collectively, making progress.  It has taken me a few decades, but I think I have come up with a list of stuff that I never saw at the northwest power planning council.  Stuff that makes a real difference.  

The sooner we start having the millions of conversations, the sooner the changes start to happen.  The sooner we can extend the list.  The sooner people drink in the benefits.

paul wheaton wrote:

I very much enjoy electricity.  I'm using electricity right now to type this.

Me too. I admit that I would really not like to have no electricity.  At the "grid level" electricity is so easy and convenient - I want a cup of hot tea, I just have to plug the kettle in.

Just as I've read about the "slow food movement", where people learn to appreciate taking the time to make a nice meal and eat it with friendly conversations, maybe we need a "slow life movement"? Maybe it takes me a bit longer to light a rocket stove to heat that water, and maybe I have to plan ahead and make extra and put it in a thermos for later, but maybe that's not such a bad thing? (Actually, I do the "thermos for later" thing even when I heat with electricity - I think it saves power.)

However, there are things I don't need to use electricity for if I organize my life to not need it. I don't need electricity to dry my laundry. I don't even need as much to wash my laundry if I spot treat a bit of dirt and wear my jeans an extra day or three if I don't get broody duck shit on them.
I may not have a rocket mass heater, but I do have a wood-stove (not nearly as efficient, but still a short cycle fuel burner) and a sweater.

So I agree - focus on the real energy savings - the things that save you a lot of power, and if we need to keep the solar panels because they're the least bad option to allow us to keep what is good about the current North American lifestyle, but now we only need 2 panels instead of 20, that's far better than Mother Nature getting so totally ticked (as I type this, my Province is about to be hammered with two more major rainstorms in a month whose normal "average" rainfall is 152.6mm, and we've already had 249.5mm - massive flooding, road damage, farms under water etc) with us humans that she decides her planet would be better off without us.

So yes, I think we're overdue for,

the gut wrenching choices about future energy stuff.

Let's just get on with it folks!

paul wheaton wrote:Today I am at the top of reddit.  Yay!  I posted an AMA.  It ran late and I had to go to bed.  I woke up to lots of dark stuff, but am making the best of it.  This is a moment to infect brains.  

One comment:

He's been peddling this for a while. It's a very niche idea, and like many enthusiasts he acts like it's a secret invention that will change the world. It has issues and I don't think it's the amazing thing he says it is.

Notice he's essentially against renewable energy and solar.

It sounds like you have personal trolls, which is not the kind of celebrity I would wish on anyone.

But I don't understand the "gut-wrenching" aspect of heating choice. I'm grateful to have multiple options, and (maybe this is the sticking point) I don't find any of them to be problematic. Every energy source embodies trade-offs (as does every choice in life), but  using them efficiently is, to me, the important consideration. Squandering energy on unproductive action is just a shame, but utilizing energy in productive activity, whether economic or social, is using, not abusing, it. How does that wrench any guts?

FWIW I have observed that the lifestyle shock of an energy transition is too much for many to wrap their heads around. It's "what we have now" vs. the zombie apocalypse, with no in-between.

For most of my fellow citizens, the change of lifestyle involved in conservation and energy efficiency is viewed as unthinkable and gut-wrenching, a war-footing sacrifice. Sure, they are happy to save the climate, provided that it doesn't cost them more than $100 (actual poll result!) and "some other evil entity that doesn't affect me personally" takes the massive hit.

Obviously that's impractial. There's a long way to go for people to redefine their perceptions of what luxury and comfort are.

The parallel to gardening in the last few years is an interesting one. Once it was pooh-poohed as backward looking, grandparenty, poor people stuff. Then the pandemic hit and supply chains exploded, and suddenly it was practical, healthy, fashionable, and crucially gave people a sense of control in the face of uncertainty. I think that translates to energy in some ways. I use a variety of energy sources, and I don't really expect that RMH's per se will be the saviour of the world. But redefining luxury and comfort in practical increments -- and linking it to personal control of one's destiny -- is a good path forward. My 2c.

Small scale, local energy production is where it's at, IMO. For me, a rocket mass heater is the solution. If everyone who needed to heat their homes used a RMH, the pollution caused by our conventional methods would be only a tiny fraction of what it is now, due to the efficiency of an RMH and all that infrastructure that goes with it would no longer be needed.   And now that folks at Wheaton Lab's Permaculture Technology Jamboree are entertaining the idea of  tinkering with a RMH that makes electricity, the rocket mass heater could become THE all-in-one solution to our personal energy needs. I don't see why it couldn't be scaled up for industrial uses, too... For a limited time, there is a way for you to get in on the action, at half the cost through the BUY-One-GET-One free sale for the annual PTJ event in July. I'm really excited about the possibilities!

They already have rocket mass heaters that produce electricity on an industrial scale, I work in hydro now, but I did work at a trash to energy plant and we produced 31 megawatts.

In the United States we have 85 of them but they are under attack and being reduced while Europe sees them as the renewable energy answer instead. I think they have it right. With the collapse of the recycling market in China and Vietnam, it’s the best we got right now. Turn 95% of solid waste into megawatts and only bury 5% of what we were burying in a landfill.

 Paul Wheaton is right, conservation is best, it’s always been best, but being a person whose life mission it is to provide electricity, it’s kind of like a DOT worker who plows winter snow. They are not to ask, “why people are on the roads in this mess at this hour”, but to rather make the roads passable.

It is the same for me, my life’s role is to have power available to citizens when they flip the switch no matter the reason, day or the hour. As was seen in the 2003 Northeast Blackout, people die without power, in that case 100 people in 12 hours.

A lot of this is just different views. Some look at this from as viewed from space picture, and some look at this more closely. Paul is not wrong, but neither am I. In my case I have a lot to do to convert 125 volts dc to 34,500 bolts ac at 16 megawatts in a span of 300 feet. To try and consider the as viewed from space view would be too much.

But electricity is far from easy to understand. Black start, spinning reserve, lead and lag loads, power factor, etc all get phased into this huge equation we mistakenly, simply call “the grid”. In reality it is the largest machine in the world rotating away at 3600 revolutions per minute. Well here in the us anyway where we use 60 hertz.

If only a Gen Z permie influencer would come along and make RMHs a TikTok aesthetic. (Cue video short of young woman in neutral natural fiber clothing feeding twigs into a rmh in her scandi-maximalist suburban tract home.)

Judging from the *plethora* of up-cycling compilation videos, minimalism or cozy aesthetic videos, “Cleantok” videos, #recessioncore, #cleangirlsaesthetic, #cottagecore (because aren’t cottage gardens pretty permaculture guilds?) “oddly satisfying” video content of power washing, grass cutting, scything, etc, people (especially young people) aren’t afraid of a quirky niche permie-adjacent POV or of conservation and eco friendly lifestyle changes.  Figuring out how to make RMH/permaculture “aesthetic” and packaging content thusly (maybe finding inspiration in an existing relevant “-core” niche) could be a way to get more buy-in from younger, somewhat more mainstream people.

I think that a lot of the content on Permies and other similar forums appeals to an older group (I'm pretty old myself ;-P)  that is less concerned about fitting in (discussions of humanure spring to mind). But younger people, still looking for their own identities, and despite the protestations of individualities and uniqueness, are looking for a group to join.

Making the concepts and actionable steps of permaculture (or just individual areas of focus like the RMH) appealing and unintimidating, actually *doable* for the average younger citizen, making something to “join” that is both desirable and accessible, something that appeals to values to which a younger demographic may aspire, and to the desire to do meaningful things with one’s life, and making it look “aesthetic”could be a practical tool for activating these incremental societal changes so often discussed here.

This seems like the kind of language that could effectively convey the idea of these kinds of choices as "upgrades" (or luxuries) rather than sacrifices to the ones who are going to be carrying the burden of energy decisions into the future.

I think one reason why DIY electricity has not really caught on is that: Energy can neither be created or destroyed.

From that there is no pulling the wool over anyone’s eyes. As I sit here my 2 turbines are spinning down in the powerhouse making 16 megawatts. If anyone has no idea how much power that is, it’s understandable, so convert it to mechanical horsepower. It’s 21,000 horse power, so you know that is a lot just from that. But megawatts can be converted into cubic feet per second too! But you can also convert kilowatts to mechanical power, or btus in garbage, or gallons of oil. Or cords of wood.

On average a house uses 10 kw at peak usage (morning and in the evening), so when I hear of a wind mill that goes on my house that costs $27,000 for 5 kw, I know, that is a lot of money for only half my electrical needs. I think that is why the home DIY market has not been really broached yet. A company cannot make an outlandish claim because it is so easy to fact check with simple conversion math.

I cannot say, "I am producing 16 megawatts from 350 cubic feet per second because it does not pass the straight face test. 350 cubic feet per minute is what comes out of a road culvert after a heavy rain, and I am claiming I can produce power for 1600 houses? No way, that just does not make sense.

But it does not matter what is used as an energy source; everything has a reliable conversion factor in energy, and that is empowering to a consumer. Using that we can validate claims. It really is that transparent: do the conversion math and make your own choices.

Ps: It is about 7700 cubic feet per second of water flow to produce 16 megawatts.

Steve - What kind of turbines? Water or wind?