John Lester

Emmett Ray wrote:

I almost sent this message when I had a thought about your wall.  (I'm okay.  It didn't hurt too bad.)

Like you said, mice can't climb flat metal.  So, get whatever kind you want to use and bend it into right angles.  No actual construction is needed.  Just one end under the van (you can put a brick or rock on it so it doesn't move) and let the other side of the metal act like an RV skirt around your van.  You can make it as tall as you want as long as it's tall enough to prevent them from jumping or climbing that high.  This skirt would go all around your van, protecting your tires and even your engine because they would overlap each other, preventing mice, snakes, etc., from even getting under the van at all.  I hope I'm describing this well enough for you to get the picture.  Basically you're putting your van in a metal box that's about three or four feet tall, but your building the box around your van, with the metal that slides under your van (and under the tires) acting as the bottom of the metal box.  

I found a picture to illustrate what I mean by the shape of the metal.  (Ignore the writing on the picture.)  Just make enough of these to go all around the van and far enough up the outside of the van to cover the tires and any other possible entry area.

Hey oh thanks that is a good suggestion to prevent the need for any joints! Hadn't thought of that.

Indeed the situation is I would be in the van, not a storage suggestion, so will be able to do maintenance for whatever.

I do prefer the idea of just stopping them getting in the van rather than mass killing. They don't interfere with my life otherwise and don't see them in the day. Of course I am still not over there yet, having been working on the access track, so don't know the situation for sure but the wall would be my preferred line of defense to explore thoroughly first.

I have heard what I think are owls around the place at night so I guess they are doing something on that side of things.

Btw how do you suggest I would bend the metal without any dedicated metalworking tools? I mean accurately enough to not compromise its efficacy? Would just a heel in the intended crease and pull be enough?

Jill Dyer wrote:
The main problem with trying to fence them out is they can climb.

The whole point is to make a fence - probably better to call it a wall - they can't climb.

Would you like to tell me how they would climb a sheer face of smooth polished metal? That is along the lines I am thinking.

I will look up the cheapest metal types to see if it is cost effective.

Hmm looks like sheet metal would cost as much as a cheaper shed for that kind of area, into the hundreds!

An option could be one they may be able to climb but have a large overhang like staddle stones so they would not be able to get over the lip.

Corrugated sheets looking more affordable.

John C Daley wrote:I suggest what authority or experience the person who told you this?

I was told conversely that even if using compacted gravel this actually damages the soil due to the runoff and/or the engineering work involved or something so is it just a case of picking the lesser evil?

John, I can tell you that 250 years of Civil Engineering will show that statement to be incorrect.
Properly designed works will prevent runoff damage.

Yes I was misquoting. I got that statement wrong having reread it of what someone else was commenting. They were actually making the general comment that adding access, in whatever form, actually improves the land because it allows continual use of the land throughout the year.

The use of degradable material is a waste in reality.
Corduroy roads with trees is a lot of work as well.

Indeed an interesting counter point and also one supporting the idea that having to replenish them every few years, with imported stone/whatever is going to hike up the environmental impact, whereas these 'one and done' plastic ones are guaranteed for 20 years.

Yes besides the price probably ending up similar I would imagine wood ones would take a lot of research and work to make something worthy yet all that work for something that probably would have to be replaced quite often. Probably not a good investment of time and effort.

Those plastic square look good, I have seen them elsewhere, but I suggest you visit a few places that have used them.

I have tried the plastic ones mentioned in the OP now. I bought just enough to run the van on and off in case again they were a failure but I am pleased to say they worked excellently. So now, having discussed the potential environmental impact, and finding it acceptable, it is just a case of shelling out the huge amount for the full run!

I have a few questions?

- Why is planning approval needed for an access road?

I don't know I didn't make the laws in the UK but that is what they are!

- how long is this track going to be?

Almost exactly 250ft.

There are loads of rodents on the other side of the field where I would intend to run the track. I suddenly remembered that I better think of a way to keep them off the van before running the track to park there.

They have caused much destruction over that side already. I naively thought previously that they wouldn't chew through plastic if they could not smell food or otherwise being enticed but having seen them bulldoze through most none metal things I would leave at, or near, ground level I have since read they will just gnaw indiscriminately if only to keep their teeth from overgrowing.

So I certainly don't want my van to be over unprotected.

I did experience them a lot on the van over in this corner of the field for a while. I used to hear them scratching and scraping almost as soon as it got dark. Yes I am confident it was rodents as I know that sound, and also saw droppings before.

The run of frosty weather must have killed them off though as I haven't heard them now since that run of cold weather.

I think they are going to be rife over that other side though and there are two big piles of cut back brash (not sure what you guys stateside call it but piles of small woody debris) which they probably find good nesting grounds.

When I had the previous rodent issues I seem to have deterred them going on the roof of the van, which they did often, they would go on the bumper then I would hear them scrambling up the sides, by sticking electrical tape to the seams of the back doors where I would previously have heard them climbing.

I am thinking to do a similar method to make a fence a few feet high, and a bit under ground of course, to make a fence to not give them anything to grip on to so they won't be able to climb over.

Similar in theory to historic staddle stones which protected grain stores but of course I don't want to raise the van base of the ground in this case as that would be impractical from an engineering perspective and much simpler to make a fence around at ground level instead.

What would be a reasonably priced material that I could run about a 20ft by 10ft perimeter around the van? I am thinking I could either use plastic drainpipe for the corners or just make them flush and 90 degrees or less so they would not have anything of substance to grab on to.

Ideas? I am thinking to put the track on hold until I have a good idea for how to protect the van.

Btw as I have solar on the roof I would not want anything that would cover it completely so something to bear in mind with suggestions.

Thanks.

Nancy Reading wrote:So assuming you really do need vehicle access over the field and can't rearrange things to make this unecessary (It always seems a pity to lose potential growing space) I did find a couple of threads that may trigger some thoughts. It obviously depends on how often you want to drive on the surface and how heavy the vehicle is going to be.
First: The living road This idea was to make a roadway with tree trunks that might carry on growing (therefore not rotting) providing an everlasting green roadway that would blend into the swamp. I've certainly had alder carry on growing just laid on turf (annoying when you want them to firewood!) and willow certainly will. I don't know that anyone had actually tried this and there were a few concerns, but a nice thought experiment...
This one has more detail on corduroy roads, which do sound possible if you have access to timber. I'm not sure what the going rate is near you, but I think you could get a double lorry load of logs for £500 or so (plus delivery)
A thread about geocells which sounds like what you are proposing. They are available is various materials and also can be filled with a variety of materials.
I wondered whether a lightweight fence like this might be used as a surfacing material for spreading the loads like a corduroy road but less substantial?



Then I found this! Making corduroy roads of various strengths and about 10:30 minutes in they make a slightly more substantial version of the fencing as a portable military road, and a little later smaller sections laid just for the vehicle wheel tread areas. I'm thinking that they could even be rolled up after use to keep dry so last longer.

Thanks for the ideas.

I really do want to be able to park within the land itself because all my living arrangements are in my van and I don't feel much privacy only being able to park right on the edge with cars always going by. It is very rural and surely would be considered a quiet road generally by most standards but there is a fair amount of farm traffic and just local residents going to and fro. Before purchasing the land I really would not have expected so much traffic as there is.

It can still be hours before anything goes by but still it would be a preference to not be so close as the reason for getting land for me was mainly to have a 'buffer to the outside world' as someone aptly put it elsewhere.

Also the water source is way over the other side so it is a nuisance to have to trudge over 2 acres of mud to refill every time. The main reason is for the privacy aspect though and to feel insulated from the public highway.

Another option was to make a shed over there, which was my initial idea, but I thought why reinvent the wheel? I would certainly happily sacrifice the land required for the privacy gain and I intend to run it on the lower side of the field which would get most shade to not encroach on the prime growing real estate but would not hesitate to use that if it would turn out better.

I think the log road would probably turn out similar in expense to run the 250ft and much harder to make. In expense one must consider the relaying which would probably be every couple of years.

No the geocells are not what I am discussing. A common confusion. I did try those first but they were fairly useless for this purpose as they just sunk into the ground and since they require a gravel base anyway it defeats the object. I linked the ones I mean in the OP and they are very different. They are specifically made to 'float' on mud.

I have bought a test run of them now and tried them out and they work great on the short strip I tried and having run the van on and off them a few times.

Chris D'Agorne wrote:...

Hail fellow brit. It is good to see another on this otherwise american based forum.

Regarding of any experiences of people having already used woodchip I posted on another forum, uk based, and someone replied that they tried and that it worked terribly. Like you say they said they turned into mush very quickly.

When having had various replies different places I feel ok with using the plastic now as others kindly pointed out that the total environmental costs of having 40+ tons of gravel shipped in is probably on par if not worse than using recycled plastic.

It has been stated that this kind of hard plastic is not the same as single use plastic. This stuff is made to not leech into the ground whereas the latter does so through breakdown. This one is uv treated as well to resist breaking down.

I don't think it is right what you mention about animals eating the plastic because they are very popular in equine circles, which is where I first read about them, and they have never mentioned anything like that.

I feel happy now accepting nothing is 100% clean and this seems very effective with not too awful a footprint or any proven discharge into the ground. I read up on it more and there are 7 main types of plastic. HDPE is one of the best for its stability, which is used for many human consumption containers, of which these things come under.

On a side note it would be good for this place to have a uk subforum if it doesn't already as I noticed much of the suggestions coming from those stateside are often not applicable to the uk.

Douglas Alpenstock wrote:
My concern with these tiles is that weeds and turf will grow up through the holes. This would be a devil of a thing to control. Eventually they will envelop the tiles and they will be difficult to remove.

That is somewhat the point so that they bed in better. They might not be easy to move once that happens but how often would you want to do that? They can be levered up if the time came. Certainly still easier than if you laid gravel down which would not be reusable after it had been down for a few months due to being sucked into the mud.

Nancy Reading wrote:Hi John, No one has a right to judge you based on what you use. We know that plastic is not an ideal solution, but sometimes it is the least worst that will do the job. I use plastic on my polytunnel. I have used it in groundcover mulches (and regretted it later). Maybe  you can use these temporarily this season and come up with a better solution for the long term. My view of plastic is that it does degrade and once it starts to crumble you end up with a mess.
I'm sure we've had threads on this sort of issue before...

I don't think this stuff would degrade, not for a long time anyway as they are guaranteed for 20 years with some people reporting they know of those using them for similar lengths of time. Plus they are somehow treated HDPE and purported to be the same as is used in children's playgrounds which are claimed to not leech.

At the start I had thought to only use sustainable material like wood or stone which would decompose back to the land.

There are only a couple of things like tarps or liquid containers which are plastic.

Well I really needed access on a wet field and you have to get planning consent to build traditional tracks which could take many months and likely to be rejected but I found out about these mats, which would not require consent as they count as temporary surfaces and just lay on top of the ground, that are made from recycled plastic which everyone raves about as being amazing for adding stability even over the worst mud.

See here: https://www.mudcontrol.co.uk/

I have bought a few and sure enough they work amazingly. I would now like more to run a whole track to the other side of the land but I am feeling torn about putting a load of this none degradeable material on there.

I wasn't able to think of a better way given the above restrictions. If I were have to used stone I would have been looking at 40+ tons probably to make a proper solid surface as well as hiring contractors to lay it probably. With these I can just place them down myself.

I was told conversely that even if using compacted gravel this actually damages the soil due to the runoff and/or the engineering work involved or something so is it just a case of picking the lesser evil?

The access track is really important as I wanted to be able to get right into the land and after this I would like to stick to using degradeable things when I can.

Other permies use things like polytunnels and plastic sheeting to suppress weeds so isn't this just the same?

They are made from 100% recycled material so that is something but plastic is still plastic.

Michael Cox wrote:I'm trying to understand what the exact problem is. Is it that the land between the ditches remains waterlogged, or are you concerned about the standing water in the ditches themselves?

I'm not an expert, but my understanding is that a ditch dries up the land down slope from the ditch. Many people find this counter intuitive, but essentially the ditch is intercepting the flow that would enter the downslope section thus allowing it to dry out. If your field is as waterlogged as you describe than you may have continual subsurface flows adding water to your ditches, which is why the appear to be not emptying.

Generally you want ditches to be close to horizontal in slope - they have much of a gradient then flowing water causes erosion problems.

I guess some photos of the arrangement would be helpful, as well as a clearer idea of what you are trying to achieve.

I am aware that the cut-off ditch is meant to dry the land below, hence the name. What I am questioning is how to empty them when they are at a level gradient, as you say is advised, as the water is just standing there. They say you have to direct down to the bottom but I am not sure how to get it to move if it is level at the top. If they should be horizontal in slope as you have noted my question then is how do you enourage them to go downhill of on a horizontal level? The land forms some small flatish shelves in places so not perfectly sloping so in these cases how to get the water to direct to where it would be downhill again which may been many tens of feet away?

I will figure it out though I guess and getting a better idea day by day.

Another question I have had is should just one cut-off ditch at the top of the field keep the whole field below dry? Or would several be of benefit. I will just trial and error this. I can just make more below the first one until no more water builds in the new ones.

As to the standing water it is not that I am concerned about it being there I am just asking if it is normal for it to sit there and for the ditches to constantly contain some water rather than being totally, or nearly, dry once water has passed through them.

Thinking from experience when just out for walks in farmer's fields they do usually have some form of standing water in their ditches throughout the year.

I dug a good bit more but now I have a new concern! Yesterday I was digging right next to the gravel track I have laid so far and it did not occur to me at the time but I later realized that this will risk the sides collapsing when driving on the track won't it!?

In some parts I dug it is only about 4-8 inches from the track edge, which is only gravel so that would be a risk wouldn't it? How far would be safe to keep open ditches by the tracks, without risking the track falling in when under weight of a vehicle, yet still allow drainage from track area as this is the main part I want drained. I mean for longer term I want to aim to drain the whole field but for now I want drainage around the track mainly because that is what I use to drive on and so the drier I can keep it the better.

I really don't want to be in a situation where I got the van stuck with one wheel in the ditch and perhaps another in the air as I would be really in a fix then I think and have to call for assistance which is what I really want to avoid. Better to fill in that work and start again from a safer distance. Perhaps from what you mention above I don't have to do the ditches right next to the track anyway for them to benefit from drainage.

As an academic question to help understand, would the middle of a large field drain if it only had ditches around its edges even thought those ditches are far away? Is it like if you had a wide and shallow bowl of water and even if you punctured the edge, the water will still flow from the whole container? I know a little different since the soil is like a sponge I suppose isn't it? Just trying to understand the theory better.

I know I could backfill with gravel to shore them up but I don't have any spare left now and don't want to buy more. I would rather just fill these ones in and make new ones a safer distance.

The stuff I have been digging is really catching a lot of water though! I have dug almost a foot deep, similar wide, and maybe 15-20ft in length mostly and by next day or two they are half full.