Solutions for vehicle access on soft ground?

At the start I had thought to only use sustainable material like wood or stone which would decompose back to the land.

There are only a couple of things like tarps or liquid containers which are plastic.

Well I really needed access on a wet field and you have to get planning consent to build traditional tracks which could take many months and likely to be rejected but I found out about these mats, which would not require consent as they count as temporary surfaces and just lay on top of the ground, that are made from recycled plastic which everyone raves about as being amazing for adding stability even over the worst mud.

See here: https://www.mudcontrol.co.uk/

I have bought a few and sure enough they work amazingly. I would now like more to run a whole track to the other side of the land but I am feeling torn about putting a load of this none degradeable material on there.

I wasn't able to think of a better way given the above restrictions. If I were have to used stone I would have been looking at 40+ tons probably to make a proper solid surface as well as hiring contractors to lay it probably. With these I can just place them down myself.

I was told conversely that even if using compacted gravel this actually damages the soil due to the runoff and/or the engineering work involved or something so is it just a case of picking the lesser evil?

The access track is really important as I wanted to be able to get right into the land and after this I would like to stick to using degradeable things when I can.

Other permies use things like polytunnels and plastic sheeting to suppress weeds so isn't this just the same?

They are made from 100% recycled material so that is something but plastic is still plastic.

Hi John, No one has a right to judge you based on what you use. We know that plastic is not an ideal solution, but sometimes it is the least worst that will do the job. I use plastic on my polytunnel. I have used it in groundcover mulches (and regretted it later). Maybe  you can use these temporarily this season and come up with a better solution for the long term. My view of plastic is that it does degrade and once it starts to crumble you end up with a mess.
I'm sure we've had threads on this sort of issue before...

Nancy Reading wrote:Hi John, No one has a right to judge you based on what you use. We know that plastic is not an ideal solution, but sometimes it is the least worst that will do the job. I use plastic on my polytunnel. I have used it in groundcover mulches (and regretted it later). Maybe  you can use these temporarily this season and come up with a better solution for the long term. My view of plastic is that it does degrade and once it starts to crumble you end up with a mess.
I'm sure we've had threads on this sort of issue before...

I don't think this stuff would degrade, not for a long time anyway as they are guaranteed for 20 years with some people reporting they know of those using them for similar lengths of time. Plus they are somehow treated HDPE and purported to be the same as is used in children's playgrounds which are claimed to not leech.

Nancy Reading wrote:Hi John, No one has a right to judge you based on what you use. We know that plastic is not an ideal solution, but sometimes it is the least worst that will do the job. I use plastic on my polytunnel. I have used it in groundcover mulches (and regretted it later). Maybe  you can use these temporarily this season and come up with a better solution for the long term. My view of plastic is that it does degrade and once it starts to crumble you end up with a mess.
I'm sure we've had threads on this sort of issue before...

It's one of those "devil is in the detail" issues I think.

When we moved into our place the people prior to us had used the woven black plastic stuff as weedblock in a few places. It was already deteriorating when we moved in. A few years later we went to rip it all out but the damage was done - we have strands of black plastic through the soil. When ever I did that area now I need to pick out bit sby hand.

On the other hand, I have recent bought a huge piece of heavy duty thick black plastic (not woven) to use to solarise a couple of over grown areas to reclaim them into productive use. The plastic will stay down for around 6 months, then be carefully folded and stored under cover for reuse in later years. I'm not anticipating any issues with deterioraton for a long LONG time as it is mostly UV that does the damage, and this stuff is both UV stable and will spend most of it's life not exposed.

Personally, my homestead operates on "the art of the possible." Sometimes that includes plastic tarps, pails, and water totes. I always look for durable goods and watch for better alternatives.

My concern with these tiles is that weeds and turf will grow up through the holes. This would be a devil of a thing to control. Eventually they will envelop the tiles and they will be difficult to remove.

What about wood matt.  In northern Canada we use something called rig mats which are matts made out of 3 inch lumber bolted together. The matt is usually three layers thick.  They are used in industrial sites so stand up to large truck traffic.

Tim Siemens wrote:What about wood matt.  In northern Canada we use something called rig mats which are matts made out of 3 inch lumber bolted together. The matt is usually three layers thick.  They are used in industrial sites so stand up to large truck traffic.

I thought about that too, but the OP is in the UK. Around here, I can buy used ones in decent shape for a good price.

What about having a load of wood chips brought in.

It seem like over time more wood chips could be added until the track is completed.

Here in the US, the pioneers made roads out of logs.

I did not know these roads had a name until someone posted about them to the forum.

Corduroy roads, I couldn't thread though I know there is one.

Douglas Alpenstock wrote:
My concern with these tiles is that weeds and turf will grow up through the holes. This would be a devil of a thing to control. Eventually they will envelop the tiles and they will be difficult to remove.

That is somewhat the point so that they bed in better. They might not be easy to move once that happens but how often would you want to do that? They can be levered up if the time came. Certainly still easier than if you laid gravel down which would not be reusable after it had been down for a few months due to being sucked into the mud.

Anne Miller wrote:What about having a load of wood chips brought in.

It seem like over time more wood chips could be added until the track is completed.

Here in the US, the pioneers made roads out of logs.

I did not know these roads had a name until someone posted about them to the forum.

Corduroy roads, I couldn't thread though I know there is one.

I have the same issue as the OP, also in the UK. I considered woodchip, but my concern is that when it breaks down, it leaves bare earth, which has even less structural strength than the turf which is currently there. At the moment I just don’t use the track in winter and walk in, instead, which is a massive pain when carrying heavy loads.

Is there anyone who has tried woodchip on e.g. sloppy clay soils like this and can report back on what happens when all the chips have rotted down? I can get them free from local landscapers, and would rather do this than use plastic reinforcement mats.

I’ve heard that livestock can eat the edges of the mat once it starts to break down, which is obviously not great for their gut. And once it’s on the land, it’s very difficult, if not impossible to remove after a few years, so you’re effectively writing off any grazing. I have goats infrequently grazing this area.

So assuming you really do need vehicle access over the field and can't rearrange things to make this unecessary (It always seems a pity to lose potential growing space) I did find a couple of threads that may trigger some thoughts. It obviously depends on how often you want to drive on the surface and how heavy the vehicle is going to be.
First: The living road This idea was to make a roadway with tree trunks that might carry on growing (therefore not rotting) providing an everlasting green roadway that would blend into the swamp. I've certainly had alder carry on growing just laid on turf (annoying when you want them to firewood!) and willow certainly will. I don't know that anyone had actually tried this and there were a few concerns, but a nice thought experiment...
This one has more detail on corduroy roads, which do sound possible if you have access to timber. I'm not sure what the going rate is near you, but I think you could get a double lorry load of logs for £500 or so (plus delivery)
A thread about geocells which sounds like what you are proposing. They are available is various materials and also can be filled with a variety of materials.
I wondered whether a lightweight fence like this might be used as a surfacing material for spreading the loads like a corduroy road but less substantial?



Then I found this! Making corduroy roads of various strengths and about 10:30 minutes in they make a slightly more substantial version of the fencing as a portable military road, and a little later smaller sections laid just for the vehicle wheel tread areas. I'm thinking that they could even be rolled up after use to keep dry so last longer.

I suggest what authority or experience the person who told you this?

I was told conversely that even if using compacted gravel this actually damages the soil due to the runoff and/or the engineering work involved or something so is it just a case of picking the lesser evil?

John, I can tell you that 250 years of Civil Engineering will show that statement to be incorrect.
Properly designed works will prevent runoff damage.
The use of degradable material is a waste in reality.
Corduroy roads with trees is a lot of work as well.
Those plastic square look good, I have seen them elsewhere, but I suggest you visit a few places that have used them.
I think they may sink in extreme locations.
A lot will depend on you land conditions, can you add photos and a contour map?
I have a few questions?
- Why is planning approval needed for an access road?
- how long is this track going to be?

Chris D'Agorne wrote:
I have the same issue as the OP, also in the UK. I considered woodchip, but my concern is that when it breaks down, it leaves bare earth, which has even less structural strength than the turf which is currently there. At the moment I just don’t use the track in winter and walk in, instead, which is a massive pain when carrying heavy loads.

My idea was to continually add more wood chips.  That way there is not bare land.

Some folks live where there  is an abundance of free wood chips.

It would be good to find some folks who have used the wood chips on roads.

Ask and you shall receive:

https://permies.com/t/204939/Wood-chip-driveway-success-story

https://permies.com/t/12720/Pros-Cons-woodchips-place-gravel

https://permies.com/t/132945/gravel-woodchip-road-path

I have to admit that wood chip idea is an eyeopener.
Perhaps is good because of the flat ground, its something I will keep an eye out for.

I have seen very mixed results with wood chips on roads. Sometimes they dry it out and seem to last years with just an occasional raking and top coat. Sometimes they make it softer and a real sinkhole. Not sure if it was the type of soil, soil life, or type of chips.

At my place, some areas remain off limits during some weather patterns and seasons of the year. Perhaps reassess why vehicle access seems immediately necessary (during times of year with soggy ground).

Perhaps consider other types of vehicles. (A dog sled for example)

Chris D'Agorne wrote:...

Hail fellow brit. It is good to see another on this otherwise american based forum.

Regarding of any experiences of people having already used woodchip I posted on another forum, uk based, and someone replied that they tried and that it worked terribly. Like you say they said they turned into mush very quickly.

When having had various replies different places I feel ok with using the plastic now as others kindly pointed out that the total environmental costs of having 40+ tons of gravel shipped in is probably on par if not worse than using recycled plastic.

It has been stated that this kind of hard plastic is not the same as single use plastic. This stuff is made to not leech into the ground whereas the latter does so through breakdown. This one is uv treated as well to resist breaking down.

I don't think it is right what you mention about animals eating the plastic because they are very popular in equine circles, which is where I first read about them, and they have never mentioned anything like that.

I feel happy now accepting nothing is 100% clean and this seems very effective with not too awful a footprint or any proven discharge into the ground. I read up on it more and there are 7 main types of plastic. HDPE is one of the best for its stability, which is used for many human consumption containers, of which these things come under.

On a side note it would be good for this place to have a uk subforum if it doesn't already as I noticed much of the suggestions coming from those stateside are often not applicable to the uk.

Nancy Reading wrote:So assuming you really do need vehicle access over the field and can't rearrange things to make this unecessary (It always seems a pity to lose potential growing space) I did find a couple of threads that may trigger some thoughts. It obviously depends on how often you want to drive on the surface and how heavy the vehicle is going to be.
First: The living road This idea was to make a roadway with tree trunks that might carry on growing (therefore not rotting) providing an everlasting green roadway that would blend into the swamp. I've certainly had alder carry on growing just laid on turf (annoying when you want them to firewood!) and willow certainly will. I don't know that anyone had actually tried this and there were a few concerns, but a nice thought experiment...
This one has more detail on corduroy roads, which do sound possible if you have access to timber. I'm not sure what the going rate is near you, but I think you could get a double lorry load of logs for £500 or so (plus delivery)
A thread about geocells which sounds like what you are proposing. They are available is various materials and also can be filled with a variety of materials.
I wondered whether a lightweight fence like this might be used as a surfacing material for spreading the loads like a corduroy road but less substantial?



Then I found this! Making corduroy roads of various strengths and about 10:30 minutes in they make a slightly more substantial version of the fencing as a portable military road, and a little later smaller sections laid just for the vehicle wheel tread areas. I'm thinking that they could even be rolled up after use to keep dry so last longer.

Thanks for the ideas.

I really do want to be able to park within the land itself because all my living arrangements are in my van and I don't feel much privacy only being able to park right on the edge with cars always going by. It is very rural and surely would be considered a quiet road generally by most standards but there is a fair amount of farm traffic and just local residents going to and fro. Before purchasing the land I really would not have expected so much traffic as there is.

It can still be hours before anything goes by but still it would be a preference to not be so close as the reason for getting land for me was mainly to have a 'buffer to the outside world' as someone aptly put it elsewhere.

Also the water source is way over the other side so it is a nuisance to have to trudge over 2 acres of mud to refill every time. The main reason is for the privacy aspect though and to feel insulated from the public highway.

Another option was to make a shed over there, which was my initial idea, but I thought why reinvent the wheel? I would certainly happily sacrifice the land required for the privacy gain and I intend to run it on the lower side of the field which would get most shade to not encroach on the prime growing real estate but would not hesitate to use that if it would turn out better.

I think the log road would probably turn out similar in expense to run the 250ft and much harder to make. In expense one must consider the relaying which would probably be every couple of years.

No the geocells are not what I am discussing. A common confusion. I did try those first but they were fairly useless for this purpose as they just sunk into the ground and since they require a gravel base anyway it defeats the object. I linked the ones I mean in the OP and they are very different. They are specifically made to 'float' on mud.

I have bought a test run of them now and tried them out and they work great on the short strip I tried and having run the van on and off them a few times.

John C Daley wrote:I suggest what authority or experience the person who told you this?

I was told conversely that even if using compacted gravel this actually damages the soil due to the runoff and/or the engineering work involved or something so is it just a case of picking the lesser evil?

John, I can tell you that 250 years of Civil Engineering will show that statement to be incorrect.
Properly designed works will prevent runoff damage.

Yes I was misquoting. I got that statement wrong having reread it of what someone else was commenting. They were actually making the general comment that adding access, in whatever form, actually improves the land because it allows continual use of the land throughout the year.

The use of degradable material is a waste in reality.
Corduroy roads with trees is a lot of work as well.

Indeed an interesting counter point and also one supporting the idea that having to replenish them every few years, with imported stone/whatever is going to hike up the environmental impact, whereas these 'one and done' plastic ones are guaranteed for 20 years.

Yes besides the price probably ending up similar I would imagine wood ones would take a lot of research and work to make something worthy yet all that work for something that probably would have to be replaced quite often. Probably not a good investment of time and effort.

Those plastic square look good, I have seen them elsewhere, but I suggest you visit a few places that have used them.

I have tried the plastic ones mentioned in the OP now. I bought just enough to run the van on and off in case again they were a failure but I am pleased to say they worked excellently. So now, having discussed the potential environmental impact, and finding it acceptable, it is just a case of shelling out the huge amount for the full run!

I have a few questions?

- Why is planning approval needed for an access road?

I don't know I didn't make the laws in the UK but that is what they are!

- how long is this track going to be?

Almost exactly 250ft.

Hi John.

If what you have works for you, then good.

I had to put in a 500 foot driveway on fairly soft, very wet clay and my contractor started by putting down a thick layer of limestone dust.  Hr then had his vehicles drive over and gradually pack it down.  

I saw the driveway just after the limestone dust had been put down and it looked like the dust layer was already 12”. Thick!  While it looked attractive at first, it looked awful as vehicles drove over it.   But that was the plan.  Eventually, the driveway got leveled and a layer of 50% dust, 50% 1 inch stone was piut down.  Again, this looked good until trucks drove over and packed it down more.

I must have put down two more of the 50-50 mix layers before moving in.  But the day of moving in, the whole construction site was so muddy, and the driveway covering with a 2 inch layer of wet, gloppy mud (I told my father who was going to help us that the whole site looked like pictures of the western front from WWI.  He thought I was exaggerating until he saw it!) that I had to put down one more fresh layer kid to get my moving van in.

My point with all this is that by now I have an incredibly solid base for my driveway.  I have seen others put down a sort of plastic cloth and then dump stone on top and I know that it works well immediately, but I do question long term stability.

John, please understand that I am not in any way criticizing your decision—you had to make a call with money, time and resources that you had at the time.  And if it works for you, excellent.

Eric

Limestone is often used to to improve clay soils. in road building.

My experience of woodchips is that they work brilliantly for paths, especially when they get topped up annually. They work less well for vehicle traffic. Vehicles invariably seem to dig through the chips and churn it up to mud again when it gets wet, where foot traffic sits lightly on top.