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Bridge/Deck over ditch  RSS feed

 
Ionel Catanescu
Posts: 174
Location: Timisoara, Romania, 45N, 21E, Z6-7
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Hello everyone.

My property lacks real access. Current entrance is over public ground, not that great by itself but also because there isn't even a plain dirt path not to mention rubble or rock ...
Since the land has the main road (asphalt) passing directly on it's front, i thought to make a private entrance there.
The issue is there's a ditch right between the road and the land. Plus the road sits a little lower but that it's not an issue.
I can't fill the ditch since it's not my property and it has drainage purpose.

People around here just stick a concrete tube in there and fill with rubble/dirt on top so everyone is happy.
I'm not a fan of concrete since it's, well, concrete, but am curious what other options there are.

Regarding concrete there are advantages and disadvantages.
Advantages:
-ready made in many sizes and strengths
-does not contain rebar therefore it should last longer
-it's present all over the place, people are familiar with it

Disadvantages:
-not very cheap but not very expensive either
-it's concrete ...

Whatever alternative there might be must be able to:
-resist a 30-40 ton truck full of stone/rock (i plan to use a lot of that)
-not be easily degradable (excluded steel which eventually rusts and costs a lot anyway)
-reasonably easy to install
-reasonable cost

So please, lend a hand in finding a solution.
I probably won't manage to do things this year but next spring it will have to be done.

PS
The image shows where i would like to put this entrance/driveway.
entrance.jpg
[Thumbnail for entrance.jpg]
 
Jay C. White Cloud
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Hi Ionel,

Well, it is not my "prefered method," but often now one can purchase 3, 5, and 6 meter plastic culvert sections that are 80% to 100% post consumer recyclable plastics and come in a size rang of 100 mm to 3 meter diameter rang. These go if super fast and can handle you load requirements.


My favorite way of constructing a drainage system or culvert is out of "arched stone" to the appropriate size to facilitate the maximum flow a water course may have. Once the basics are understood, and of course the location has a good source of stone...then the construction goes smooth and in fair speed. A 5 meter long culvert of about 350 to 400 mm diameter should take a DIYer about 4 to 8 days including sorting stone...A professional can build these in 2 to 3 days...

Good luck,

j
 
Ionel Catanescu
Posts: 174
Location: Timisoara, Romania, 45N, 21E, Z6-7
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Thanks.

Haven't thought about the plastic culvert system.
It is awfull simpler and so much less weight though i suppose considerably more expensive than concrete.
I'm not sure i would choose any of them unless i would be really hard pressed.

Can you give more details for the stone arch ?
Maybe some links to images/videos ?
I have some quarries nearby and could calculate material/transport/labor cost and figure out if i should bother or not.
 
Jay C. White Cloud
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In most areas here plastic is less expensive all around. Less to manufacture (it uses recyclables), less to transport (its much, much lighter), and overall durability is presenting at being much better as well...

Stone Arch Culvert

Stone Drainage Arch
 
Ionel Catanescu
Posts: 174
Location: Timisoara, Romania, 45N, 21E, Z6-7
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Thank you.

The stonework looks quite labor intensive but it has it's advantages.

Regarding piping, i didn't know plastic pipe was that strong.
I did manage to find locally (more or less) HDPE and PP pipe raging from 4kn/sqm to 16kn/sqm.
Prices are from somewhat more to 4 times as much a concrete.
I guess the transport cost will compensate whatever difference.

Hmm, tough decisions to make.
 
Jay C. White Cloud
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The stonework looks quite labor intensive but it has it's advantages.


If you do not have stone (or the correct type/shape of stone) it can be more labor intensive than other methods. However, with the correct stones on hand, and a little practice, stone arches can go pretty quick. I have a dear colleague (Thea Alvin) that just held a workshop not long ago at a garden center for folks to "play with arches." Most were very impressed just how fast they could get them built, and how incredibly strong they are. A drain channel or culvert is nothing but a series of interlocking arches...

Good Masons could do several meters an hour for covered drainage channels. I have even found them under the foundations of large stone houses and mills...Arches are insanely strong and enduring with some of the oldest being over 5000 years...

Prices are from somewhat more to 4 times as much a concrete....I guess the transport cost will compensate whatever difference.


Wow...4x...that must be a Euro thing...but you are correct, the weight of concrete should make the logistics cost even things out fiscally so (recycled) plastic pipe is more cost effective in the long run...I do have to admit to using these on jobs...but I really dislike both and prefer stone or clay tile.
 
Ionel Catanescu
Posts: 174
Location: Timisoara, Romania, 45N, 21E, Z6-7
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Whatever stone is from the quarry. That means in whatever shape and form it comes ...
So i would have to cut/break it locally myself (i don't know of any stoneworker that could do the job).
I so much would love to learn this but i don't think this is the right time ...

However, the thing is, if i order a truck, i can't dump it on the property since there's no access until i make it ... so chicken and egg ...

Regarding plastic pipe, i have a feeling that around here they don't bother recycling ...


PS
4 times as much was optimistic but the weight keeps a similar factor ...

PS2
Concrete tubes can come in 1m lengths (easier to transport) but HDPE in 6m lengths.
I really have no idea how much transport will cost ...

PS3
It seems the available concrete tubing is reinforced (rebar) so that will mean a definitely shorter lifespan.
 
Jay C. White Cloud
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Whatever stone is from the quarry. That means in whatever shape and form it comes ...
So i would have to cut/break it locally myself (i don't know of any stoneworker that could do the job).
I so much would love to learn this but i don't think this is the right time ...


All depends if it is a "stratified" stone, or an easily split species...Some are really easy to split and shap for this purpose, some actually are stratified well and naturally make shapes that are viable and sympathetic to arches...

As for learning, this is actually one of those skills where the material (stone) and means (tools) along with the methods (from books and internet) that one can learn more on their own by just paying attention to what the tools and stones are saying to them...Archs work...or...they don't. There really isn't an "in between."

However, the thing is, if i order a truck, i can't dump it on the property since there's no access until i make it ... so chicken and egg ...


Ah yes...the egg comes first...

So what we have done in the past is this...

You need a "road width" culvert...Say about 4 to 5 meters wide. That typically means a "work area" (no matter what form of culvert plastic, concrete or stone) of about 8 to 10 meters in width.

We "dump" the stone in the "down stream" section of the ditch/culvert area. Then, if more stone is needed...drive across the dump site.

Build from your "land pile" and finish with you "ditch pile." When its all done...you have a stone culvert and little stone left or extra stone to build other things with...

Regarding plastic pipe, i have a feeling that around here they don't bother recycling ...


That's "icky" and I then would also make sure that the pipe is "UV Stabilized," and not full of other toxic gick...


PS2
Concrete tubes can come in 1m lengths (easier to transport) but HDPE in 6m lengths.
I really have no idea how much transport will cost ...


The plastic is light enough that we have strapped it to the top of a car...with pads of course...

PS3
It seems the available concrete tubing is reinforced (rebar) so that will mean a definitely shorter lifespan.


Yup...and that also means probably an even lower grade of concrete full of "fly ash" and other "junk" to make it cheap and they are relying on "rebar" to hold the mess together until the "rust jacking" starts (in about 5 to 15 years) and the entire thing has to be replaced...No thank you...I just won't use it anymore...

Regards,

j
 
Ionel Catanescu
Posts: 174
Location: Timisoara, Romania, 45N, 21E, Z6-7
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The stone is diorite.
I know my son in law bought a truck load (30 some tons) in washing machine size.
A team of 2-3 managed to beak it into smaller chunks.
I don't think it was that hard since they did it pretty fast.

Regarding the egg ...
The attached image shows the issues with the "space".
The road is narrow.
To the right you go down abruptly cca. 2m.
To the left is the ditch cca. half meter width and after that the property sits cca. 1m higher (can't see because the bushes).
If i fill the ditch with stone, it's not a lot of space (just half meter).
The truck can't turn here, just dump the load and try to turn somewhere else.
This might be a nice solution, gotta talk to the local people and authorities, see if they approve.

One other idea, if i get big enough stone and turn it into slabs, this might be feasible:

road.JPG
[Thumbnail for road.JPG]
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