Patrick Graeme

Zach Lynn wrote:Hello all,

This is my first post on Permies. We have about 5 acres of land in upstate New York right outside of Albany. There is an east facing slope with a roughly 20 to 25% grade.

Last year I was able to put a couple of fruit trees on contour across the hillside, but did not build a wail. This year I have an intention of planting around 20 to 25 fruit trees in approximately 3 to 4 rows down the hillside.

I have two questions. One. Although I did my order wrong, I’d like to still build the wails for the pre-existing fruit trees. I understand that the ace of the tree would be buried below the berm so I’m assuming I can either try to lift up the tree to the top of the berm or just have the bottom base of the tree buried in the topsoil.

More pressing, though, I am planting a mix of semi dwarf, fruit varieties of which they all have different canopy shapes. It would be a mix of apples, pears, cherries, plums, and nectarine. The spacing that I’ve read is that 15 feet on center (or ~4.5 m) and 20 feet between the rows (~6 m) is a safe bet for a majority of the semi dwarf varieties.


Since I’ll be digging about 600 feet of wail by hands, I’d like to start now so that I can plant in dormancy before the hard winter.

I’d like to know what your recommendations are seeing as the contour lines already have variable widths from row to row so do I map out the wails to the distance apart of the trees or do I map the wails out to the proper distance of wails based on the slope and the upper canopy layer of the tree traced back to the landscape?

The material overhead is very variable essentially says it depends on the type of soil (heavy clay) and the slope (25%) and the height of the mature tree (20 ft max).

Your thoughts would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.

You should be able to uproot and replant last years trees into the swale you intend to build without too much disturbance to them if you do it in dormancy. Although I realize that may be in the dead of winter when the ground is frozen. We  don't have to deal with that out here.

As for spacing, it's hard to say without seeing your slope. My brain doesn't compute what a 20-25% grade is. I think in naturalist terms not engineering terms. For your region, I would think strict adherence to contour for swales might not be so important. You get summer rain correct? (what a luxury lol). If the spacing of the swales gets too close you could just start a new swale, or put each individual tree on it's own mini swale. There's a term for that but I'm forgetting. 20 ft distance seems wide for semi-dwarf trees. Probably accounting for having some row in the middle with which to work, so just take that into account for how much space you want to have to work between the rows. Remember, the plants don't really care about those specifications- those are for our convenience.

John C Daley wrote:I have walked away from designers on two jobs that just did not listen to instructions.
One even defended their actions by saying they expected licence to create what they wanted.

I keep a very tight rein on them now and I now the industry well, so dont feel too bad about what you have been through.
Research across many areas and with different people is essential, we all have personal preferences.
Today I try and give a balanced view to anybody.

Yeah, I think if I do a thing like this again and encounter a designer who's trying to drive the bus instead of listening to what I want to do I'll have the confidence to walk away early. Unfortunately I'm where I'm at, and I've come to a completion point and poured a fair amount of money into this design. So turning back and starting over with something different would feel like a major waste. I think there's a way forward, and the builder I'm planning to work with on the core structural parts thinks so too. He's going to get me an estimate for his part soon and that will be a big determining factor on moving forward.

Mark Miner wrote:I am sorry to hear that the design has been an ordeal. $25k for design is not something I would consider reasonable for a single family home, at least for a result that isn't a stupendous piece of architecture.

As far as roof and foundation, they certainly are significant costs, and your builder likely knows local conditions well, so I won't argue from a distance. That approach is why CA subdivision houses increasingly approximate Borg cubes. Lots depends on your climate, your preferences, etc., but saving the engineering fees can pay for fair bit of metal roof or concrete. Anyway, I don't know what you're balancing, family size, lot size, etc., but I'd encourage you to be pointed in your questions, and slow to pay for work that you don't want or need. You can ask the builder "what's the per square foot cost for foundations? roofs? walls?" and do some rough math yourself.

Useful feedback. Yeah, that's why I've pulled the reigns on doing any more consulting work. The design really got away from me unfortunately.

Mark Miner wrote:I would encourage you to have between $10k-25k ready to deal with preconstruction. That's a big range, and a bit of a guess, but I know very few engineers who would do a custom 2-story timberframe/straw house engineered plan for less than $10k (I wouldn't, as I have a guess at how much of my time that would take up having done similar work for masonry-type designs). Since you want 2 stories, IRC Appendix S is less helpful, it would only apply to single story, and requires engineering for two levels.

I really tried to do this research ahead of time, but apparently not well enough. I'm already at over 25K for the design alone. Engineering looking at another 10-12K, permitting maybe 6-10 from what I've heard. The design cost got out of control in part because the designer, who doesn't listen very well designed out some straw bale walls on the building without consulting with me, so we had to go back and re design certain parts. I've been very unhappy with him. I was also given the impression by a well known natural builder in our area that going two story would save money in the long run because foundation and roof are the most expensive parts. Even though I was hesitant about that because of the complication of having to put up scaffolding.

So IDK, feeling pretty discouraged about this. Just want to put up a yurt and get to doing the permaculture bits I actually know how to do.

Anne Miller wrote:To me, the biggest part of budgeting for a build would be to add up the cost of materials.

Holding workshops would not come into play unless there is a cost added to the workshops such as food, advertising, etc.

My understanding is that labor is actually the biggest factor in a buildings cost. Although with tarriff wars and a failing economy materials could start to compete with that.

Yes thanks for that comment Mark. I have observed how planning can drag out and become a money sink. Already more has gone into than I'd care for and I haven't even had engineering look at it or submitted permit. I'm in a holding pattern right now assessing budget and trying wrap my head around what that might realistically look like. In Mendocino county we do have a relaxed permitting option called Class K- that basically gets you out of a lot of hassle. It's gotten watered down over the years, but it still keeps you from having to put in a sprinkler system in the house which the county planner has told me could cost 20K alone. In theory you can submit plans you did yourself (I'm not confident in my skills enough to do that) without engineering. But the builder I'm planning to work with says more often than not with Class K they still want to see engineering. The design I've come up with with the designer is a 2 story, timberframe with strawbale walls roughly 1800 sq ft (outside footprint). Mostly square with the SE corner at a 45 to face the winter solstice sun.

My question is, are those estimates of 2-5% based on having contractors do all the work? My plan is to have the builder who specialized in timber frame do the foundation, frame, and roof. I'll help out where I can but most of that will be on him. I'll probably contract out the electrical as I'm terrible at that, and most or some of the plumbing. But I've enough experience I think to take charge from there on the strawbale walls, plastering, and finish work. I'm in touch with CASBA (Cal Strawbale Assoc) about doing workshops, and other natural builders. Plan for lots of work parties and the like. I really look forward to doing a lot of the interior wood work and finish as that's where my skill set comes into play more. Do you think with that in mind I might be able to offset labor costs enough where the high expense of designing/permitting will be larger in proportion to the build?

Mark Miner wrote:Hi Patrick,
I observed preconstruction (plan/permit/engineering) costs to run between 2-5% of a project (in AZ), but with lots of variability! A lot will depend on how much engineering your jurisdiction requires, I had a Flood department add 5mos and $8k to a project before the dirt was scratched. If your jurisdiction has adopted the International Residential Code appendix S (for strawbale), and if your plan conforms to code, and if your site is "normal", life should not be much worse than a conventional house as far as preconstruction costs. However, there is no upper limit to how much time and money you can spend tweaking plans, so beware of that trap!
Best of luck!
Mark

Thanks for folks replies. I forgot to come back and check on this as I'm intermittently on this website. Oh, boy if I'm even at 5% for design costs of overall budget I may be in trouble. Except of course I intend to workshop/work party lots of the strawbale and plaster parts, and the finish work will mostly be on my own shoulders. I don't know that I'd call the design complex, but definitely custom!

Late to this conversation- I'm partial to the more simple version with one photo that is easily recognizable. But I see that more people responded to the multi picture version. I think it definitely feels less busy when you pare it down from 5 photos to 4. I like the first one of those better I think. Looking forward to this book because I LOVE SOURDOOOOOUUUUGGGHHH!