experiences with melatonin for sleep?

I've never had trouble falling asleep but as I aged I would wake up after only 5 or 6 hours and not be able to go back to sleep....I rarely got 8 hours in a row.

I've tried melatonin in the past with no success so just adjusted and lived with some sleep deprivation and took naps when I could.

My GP suggested melatonin again and this time I got a bottle of chewables that were supposed to be fast acting.  I started by taking one (3mg) tablet when I woke in the night and then switched to taking it at the time I quit reading...aiming for a 8pm-4am sleep cycle.

It's working🙃
I'm still waking up more than I like but falling back asleep quickly and sleeping in till 4:30 or 5:00am!

Now, though, I wonder about long term effects...will I build up a tolerance?

I take been taking a nightly dose of melatonin for over fifteen years. I take 3mg at night an hour before I want to fall asleep. It gets my drowsy enough so that I can slip into sleep. It has worked for me and stays working for me.

Something that I would like to share is that a 3mg dose is not true from brand to brand. If one does not work for you, I encourage you to try another brand and see if it does. I take the non-rapid release tablets as they tend to work the best.

I have not experienced any tolerance buildup.

I have started trying to move away from pills to a less processed source of melatonin and have found tart cherry juice to work wonders. The issue I have with tart cherry juice is the quality seems to be all over the place. I'm still figuring out my way with the juice.

thanks Timothy!

That's just the sort of thing I was wanting to hear.

Mine is NOW brand.. middle of the road quality probably
and quite affordable for me at this dose.

I'm not sure the fast release is necessary like I thought but the bottle has 120 doses so I'll keep on with that for now.

Dear hubby and I both take melantonin.  We started at 3mg though now it is 10mg fast acting. He says it helps him go to sleep.  For me, maybe it helps me stay asleep depending on other things.

I found them on eBay in 3mg. chewables so I bought them to try.

The regular melatonin tablets has a gag factor for me which may be related to other prescriptions forced on me that made me throw up.

I use melatonin only on occasion. Dependency with it is an issue that can inhibit your pineal gland from continuing to produce and regulate it normally. I'm a former acupuncturist and Chinese Medicine practitioner, so this advice is coming through that lens. In Chinese Medicine there is actually a differentiation between insomnia where you have a hard time falling to sleep, and insomnia where you wake up in the middle of the night. I have had the later quite a bit and have developed some tools alongside and before insomnia to deal with it.

First when I'm going through a bout of that kind of insomnia I'll take a Gaia Herbs formula called Sleepthru. It really helped me regulate my sleep cycle when I was in grad school. Stress is a big factor in any kind of insomnia, and in Chinese medicine the waking up in the middle of the night is considered a Yin deficiency insomnia- your Yin is responsible for keeping you asleep at night and if its weak or insufficient its easy to reawaken at night. Sleepthru has ashwagandha in it as the primary herb, along with some other that help nourish the Yin.

Sleep hygiene is important to. Are you scrolling through your phone at night before you go to bed? Eating late? Have a disruptive element in or near your environment that causes you to wake? These can all contribute to insomnia. Also consider removing sources of light that could be causing you to wake, either from the window or clocks and electronic gadgets that make light. Some of the best sleep I've ever had was in a room completely pitch black. Our eyeballs can still register a small amount of light through our eyelids and it can activate the wake up mode.

Acupuncture on a weekly basis for insomnia if it's really persistent can be helpful.

And lastly the thing that I often turn to in the middle of the night if I'm not physically too tired to get up is meditation. For a while I would actually meditate before bed, but found that rhythm not very easy to stick to when I just want to crawl in the covers. But if I find myself wide awake at 2 am or whenever, I will get out of bed and go sit in my mediation spot. It works wonders. Not only is the meditation compensating for the sleep time I'm losing because mediation puts our brain into a similar state, but when I'm done I fall back asleep easily the vast majority of the time. This does require having a bit of experience with a mediation practice, I can see it might be difficult to establish this if you don't already mediate, but I can't say enough about how it helps calm down the brain weasels when they get going late at night.
Hope that helps with some alternative suggestions.
~P

Thank you Patrick!
as far as evening care I do all the things.
Since I practice intermittent fasting I'm done eating at 2pm.
I do not use the cell phone near bedtime but I do read from a kindle in the evening.
We have dark curtains in the bedroom that shut out the street lights  so the room is dark.
and it is a quiet neighborhood...no traffic and rarely a night time dog barking.
... I don't drink or smoke at all.
and I don't have anything caffeinated after 12 noon

My dependable sleep cycle used to be 8pm-4 or 5am.
I'm definitely in the wake up after a few hours group now and for several years.

Meditation is a something I've never been able to do easily.

I wonder since low melatonin can be age related (I'm 75) and my body is already making less, if it really matters that I take it long term...although I'm planning on another 20 years or so

Thank you for sharing your knowledge and experience.

I'll check into the herb supplement you mention.

I love the term 'brain weasels'!!!

Judith Browning wrote:Meditation is a something I've never been able to do easily.

I find trying to learn about meditation is something that might be misunderstood.

For about ten years I have used a phrase to help me go to sleep.  It was a phrase picked by a past Chamber of Commerce member and placed on a billboard.

Until recently, I didn't understand meditation though I now believe that is what I have been doing for about ten years.  Maybe I am wrong ...

Regarding melatonin, when I lived in the city I would take it to help me fall asleep at night. In the hours before bed I'd also set my environment to be conducive to sleep, though it sounds like you have this sorted out already, Judith. I also agree that a tolerance can build up over time if it becomes a habitual practice while not building other sleep-positive habits.

Anne Miller wrote:For about ten years I have used a phrase to help me go to sleep.  It was a phrase picked by a past Chamber of Commerce member and placed on a billboard. [...] Until recently, I didn't understand meditation though I now believe that is what I have been doing for about ten years.  Maybe I am wrong ...

I use what I call "words of affirmation" when I lay down to sleep at night, which is a collection of statements and a kind of "sleepytime mantra" I made for myself. I find that I can fall asleep quite quickly - and sleep like a rock - if I say these to myself when I lay down and am settled. I'd recommend this kind of practice for anyone to try. To be clear: it's not "prayer," per se. But I'd possibly consider it as a personal spiritual practice, and religion is not required.

 youtube channel Dr Eric Berg has plenty on natural sleeping aids
- D3+K2 (10000 IU daily)
- Magnesium Glycinate
- Ashwaganda root
to name a few


ehem.... some "green plant" works too of the indica type🤷‍♀️

Stephen B. Thomas wrote:"We carry a new world here, in our hearts..." --Buenaventura Durruti

<fist bump> dope tag line/quote source bro. @

Judith Browning wrote:

I'll check into the herb supplement you mention.

I love the term 'brain weasels'!!!

No problem. There are of course many other suitable sleep formulas, some that you could probably put together yourself if you're inclined that way. I always recommend talking to a qualified herbalist or acupuncturist (that does herbs) about the right formula. Some people experience an energizing effect from ashwaganda which is counter to what you want it for in a sleep formula. Chinese medicine has some really great sleep formulas as well. I've just found sleepthru to be really effective.

thanks everyone!

I do have passionflower, milky oats, valerian among other 'sleepy time' herbs (all grown or wild harvested by me) and some other relaxing herbs available...it's just that falling asleep has never been the problem.   I have considered making tinctures that could be easily used in the middle of the night but decided against that.

It's that cycle of waking up tired after not enough sleep so that nap or no nap during the day I'm ready to fall asleep at 6 or 7pm and then still wake up after 4 or 5 hours.

So far taking 3mg melatonin is helping me fall back asleep even though I still wake as frequently...and then I'm getting 7-8 hours and feeling rested.

😴

I was going to bed at 11 and waking up at 12.  Last two night I took an Aleve before bed and have slept until 2 am.  I feel like a new person.

Anne Miller wrote:I was going to bed at 11 and waking up at 12.  Last two night I took an Aleve before bed and have slept until 2 am.  I feel like a new person.

Anne, 3 hours...that's not nearly enough sleep is it?
and you take melatonin.
are you able to nap during the day?

Judith Browning wrote:Anne, 3 hours...that's not nearly enough sleep is it?
and you take melatonin.
are you able to nap during the day?

I try really hard not to fall asleep during the day so I can get more sleep at night.  Btw, I also started taking magnesium at the same time so maybe that is it.

Little thing tick me off and my mind is over active causing me to think about those things instead of going to sleep.  

I am happy with only 4 hours sleep for many, many years ...

I've found re-establishing a natural circadian rhythm and correcting magnesium deficiency to work best. Dr. Jack Kruse is a retired brain surgeon who preaches that 80% of health is just waking up to watch the sun rise barefoot everyday,  getting as much sun exposure as possible, and avoiding all sources of non-native EMF. This means your kindle before bed, and as crazy as it may sound in the 21st century, replacing all the LEDs and CFLs in your house with incandescent bulbs, as these new energy efficient technologies produce a blue light spectrum similar to noon time sun. So if you're exposing yourself to noon time sun in the form of non-native EMF like screens and blue light, you're tricking your body into thinking it's high noon, when it's actually 8pm. This is the source of melatonin deficiency.  It can take your brain something like 4 hours to start producing natural melatonin after exposure to blue light, so the best cheat code I've found to get around the screens at night issue is blue light blocking glasses. There's a lot of untested brands out there, and I don't gain anything from promoting this, but BonCharge has 3rd party tested their lenses to block 100% of the blue light spectrum, and their red lenses instantly relax me when I put them on after sunset. Taking exogenous melatonin down-regulates your endogenous melatonin production, so overtime your body produces less of it, making dependency a risk.  I think it can be  through addressing  the light hygiene issue.

https://boncharge.com/collections/blue-light-blocking-glasses
https://youtu.be/T5TvHd7WnIE - Jack Kruse quickie on melatonin

As for the magnesium, I take magnesium breakthrough, which contains all 7 bio-available forms of magnesium. I used to experience painful leg cramps that would wake me in the middle of the night after a surgery, and this stopped it. I'd recommend getting a few bottles to start and following their recommended protocol to optimize your magnesium levels (unless you're 100% sure you're levels are good, worst case is loose stools if you overdo it.)

https://bioptimizers.com/magnesium-breakthrough?gl=646393f83f5d600d3b8b4567

Hope something in here is helpful. Sweet dreams!

-bryce

I used to take melatonin every night, 3 mg. Sometimes 5 mg. I got very sick, I felt terrible mostly in the morning and up to early afternoon. I quit all my supplements except melatonin and still felt terrible. The day I quit melatonin I started to feel better, and it took about 10 days to get back to normal.

Bryce, thanks for the information!

It turns out my tablet has a blue light filter and it's now turned on.
I only recently started reading ebooks from this states digital library...I needed to be able to enlarge the print for these old eyes and my bedtime read is only about 15 minutes before I fall asleep but for longer periods during the day.

I used to take magnesium for leg cramps but now that we have a source for raw milk that alone seems to alleviate them.

I don't have any trouble falling asleep it's waking up after only a few hours unable to fall back asleep that's the problem.

My understanding is that we make less melatonin as we age which seems to be the case with me.  My sleep issues began 10 years ago occasionally and now much more frequent.
The melatonin supplement seems to do the trick...I was hoping it might get me back on track and then I could drop it or at least lower the dose?

Still, I'm open to thoughts and advice for alternatives to melatonin

Rafael, could you explain the illness you mention caused by melatonin

funny to see this thread come up again today.
i haven't slept well in a few months, and after reaching a bit of a breaking point yesterday I saw a doctor about getting on the road to figure out what's going on (more about that in another thread). Until all the tests get done and the results come back, she prescribed a melatonin/tryptophan, magnesium and B3/B6 supplement.
Not sure what to expect. Took one last night and felt a bit fuzzy, woke a few times but seemed to get back to sleep. At least I dreamed, which is more than the usual lately. So nothing dramatic, but also not worse, which I guess I'll take for now.

I also do "all the things", since forever. We'll see how things work out. The way I see it, for the short term there's not really any side effects, and definitely this is better than any alternative medications (did that when i was younger, not doing that again, too many problems).

Magnesium puts me right to sleep. It's not perfect, I need to be active during the day and get sunlight but if I do my part it works.

Hi Rafael,

Welcome to Permies.

Patrick, outstanding post!

I teach Psychology and I was heavily influenced by advances in the knowledge about the human brain when I was in college in the '90s.  I just LOVE that you mentioned the pineal gland!  I teach about this part of the brain as well.  And I second your concerns about melatonin dependency.

And to reiterate much of what you stated but to add further context, melatonin is a drug, but it is regulated as a dietary supplement.  Make no mistake, it IS a drug.  Sometimes a drug is perfectly appropriate--I am very happy to get an antibiotic to prevent infection, and I am certainly thankful for sedative drugs when I have had surgical procedures!  But of course, sometimes a drug in inappropriate.  

Something that gets me about melatonin is how varied and random its effects are on different people.  For instance, many people report taking melatonin and falling asleep quickly.  And for those people I am happy.  My experience is that no amount, no matter how large or small the dose, would do anything to help me fall asleep.  Worse still, the effective dosage is wildly variable.  Those pills come in dosages as low as 1/2 a mg up to 20 mg.  And the instructions state taking from one to four pills.  This means that the final dosage is as small as 1/2 mg up to 80 mg!  That is a 160 fold difference in potency.

Also, long term usage of melatonin can have potentially bizarre sexual side effects.  In addition to inducing sleep, the pineal gland also uses melatonin to regulate puberty.  Essentially, melatonin puts the brakes on secondary sexual development.  Some examples are pubic hair, broadening of shoulders and upper chest, drop in voice pitch for boys and genital development.  In girls, breast development, ovulation, broadening of hips and pubic hair.  There are virtually no studies done of the effects of long-term, high-dose use of melatonin and these or other potential sexual problems.  There are some anecdotal reports of sexual problems that vaguely resemble a sort of halfway (more like 1/10th way) reversal of puberty in adults who regularly use melatonin.  It is FAR too early to say anything definitive, but I think caution is warranted.

I am getting a touch opinionated here, but I get just a little irked that some drugs (think aspirin) which are perfectly natural and found in nature get intensive regulation while "supplements" are not even considered a drug and are completely unregulated.  And again, at the risk of too opinionated, marketing a product and labeling it as "natural" does not inherently confer safety.  A drug is a drug and its safe use or misuse is determined by well-informed good judgement.

I am not telling anyone here to never take melatonin or get terribly concerned. I am saying that being well-informed and using good judgement is a hard way for things to go wrong.

Please, use this post and any information as useful if you get something useful out of it.  If this post is of no use to you, then don't let me get in the way of whatever you are going to do.  Asking a doctor is certainly a good way to go if you have further concerns.  And whatever you do, I completely support your decision.


Hopefully this will at least be informative.



Eric

Finally catching up here.
Eric, I share your concerns with supplements.
I am constantly reassessing the ones I do take and try to source them from a trusted company and as natural as possible.

BUT🙃My sleep issues have worsened over the last few years and even though I'm doing all of the right things to give me a good nights sleep  it was just not happening.

My GP suggested the melatonin.  I decided to try what he suggests for a change and it is working well for me.


Tereza, I hope you are getting some regular sleep!
I too am having dreams again now that I fall back asleep instead of staying awake...so entertaining😊

Judith,


I was perhaps a bit jumpy when I was posting that message.  I thought I mentioned in the text that if melatonin works for you, then by all means use it.  And melatonin does help some people sleep--in those cases, melatonin is perfectly reasonable.  Also, good that you are not using this alone--your doctor is monitoring you so you have an outside, highly educated evaluator of your overall health.  This is very good as if the melatonin ever stops working, your Dr. might be able to work with you to find a better alternative, if one is even needed.

And I so do commiserate with your insomnia.  Insomnia plagued me for about 15 years before being able to get a grip on it.  It wrecked my life and nearly ended my teaching career.  It forced me to take two years off work due to disability--the most humiliating experience of my life.  I am lucky that I have a grip on it now--I liken it to cancer in remission.  But occasionally it does flare up.

Judith, by all means do whatever is right and appropriate for you to get the good sleep that you need.



Eric