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rocket mass heaters

Workshop heater.

Posts: 23

Location: Mid-Michigan

posted 8 years ago

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This is an interesting thread to me. I really want to build a rocket heater for my small 700SQFT shop.
I am in lower Michigan so winters are not terrible, but we do get a month of zero to -10
I am well insulated and work in my shop all day every day.
I am a backer of the new DVD series from Paul, but i have not got that yet. Maybe it shipped yesterday.
I was thinking about a stove very similar to what the OP posted, but then i read the first page of the thread and was glad i didnt.
What i did take away from pg. one is that F Styles has a good and inexpensive build that he is happy with.

My question is this. Can a rocket stove heater be build that will burn for longer that a couple hours? I wont mind slipping a stick in every now and then while i work, but it would be nice to get part way thru the night.
I dont think i need a mass heater as space is a bit limited. Speaking of that, i would like to have as small a foot print as i can, and i would also like ideas about getting it close to a zero clearance heater on the back side if possible.

I have 1 million more questions, but i will hold off for now. Any links or comments will be great. I will finish reading this thread tonight i hope.

F Styles, do you have a plan for your build?

"Our greatest fear should not be of failure but of succeeding at things in life that don't really matter.”
~ Francis Chan.

Glenn Herbert

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posted 8 years ago

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If you work in your shop all day every day, then you do want a mass heater. You don't want to have to start the system up in a cold shop every morning. A RMH sized for the space and the climate doesn't have to burn continuously, it just has to burn long enough to store the heat that will be needed for your working day, overnight, or whatever your schedule is. A woodstove needs to burn continuously, a RMH doesn't. That is a critical difference that people used to woodstoves have to get into their heads to operate a RMH properly.

Charles Deshler

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Location: Mid-Michigan

posted 8 years ago

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Thank you Glenn. I have considered that, and that makes sense. I guess my concern is in the fact that these RMH don't hold a fire that long, and i cant wrap my head around that fact. Will the Mass be hot enough to keep space warm enough to work/live or do i need more sweaters?

"Our greatest fear should not be of failure but of succeeding at things in life that don't really matter.”
~ Francis Chan.

Charles Deshler

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Location: Mid-Michigan

posted 8 years ago

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Satamax Antone wrote:

Satamax, do you think this is good solid design?

"Our greatest fear should not be of failure but of succeeding at things in life that don't really matter.”
~ Francis Chan.

Glenn Herbert

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posted 8 years ago

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When sized for the space and climate, a RMH mass will hold enough heat for 8-24 hours of comfortable heat, with an hour to a few hours of burning, depending on the details.

My guess on the heater in the video is that it would hold several hours of heat, but not more, as it is quite small, and would be good for a modest decently insulated room.

A major feature of the standard RMH with a barrel and a mass bench (or other shape of mass) is that it gives instant heat while the fire is burning (from the barrel) and long-term heat that slowly works its way through the mass after the fire is out.

Satamax Antone

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Charles. I would make this brick tower with a J tube; a taller one, with a batch rocket instead. May be a mix of this and Peter's three barrel tower.

http://batchrocket.eu/en/applications#threebarrel

Well, in my workshop heater, described here http://donkey32.proboards.com/thread/1817/starting-build-220mm-rocket-double

I noticed that the instant heat is nice with the "barrel" but if i want to charge the mass well, it gets hot in the workshop.

If i had to do it again, i think i would reverse the way i've built it. Using the extreme heat of the batch rocket burner to charge the mass first. May be using a smidge smaller mass.

Then following it with a single barrel bell, before the chimney. To extract the latest of the available calories, to "direct heat" the workshop.

If you like the looks and size of the heater in the video. May be doubling it in height. Puting a batch in there. And topping it with a big steel plate, or a section of a barrel could prove a good heater.

Can you use sketchup? Are you really interested in putting a rocket mass heater in your workshop?

God of procrastination https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1EoT9sedqY

Satamax Antone

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I had drawn this one for my workshop at first.

With a metal door for cleaning and direct heat. The barrel inside is used to redirect the heat downwards, so the stratification of the heat layers is a bit more even via mixing.

Filename: workshopheater.skp

File size: 232 Kbytes

Download Attachment

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Charles Deshler

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Location: Mid-Michigan

posted 8 years ago

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I am very serious to build a shop heater. I want to keep it small as i can, and still have it work proper.
I have two rooms with an 8 foot by 8 foot opening between them. This is where i will place heater i hope.

I just thought that i have squatted on Johns thread. I apologize John.
I am new to the forum and everything is strange to me.
Should i take this elsewhere?

"Our greatest fear should not be of failure but of succeeding at things in life that don't really matter.”
~ Francis Chan.

Satamax Antone

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Location: Southern alps, on the French side of the french /italian border 5000ft elevation

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Charles, no worries.

Have you checked the sketchup file posted above?

God of procrastination https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1EoT9sedqY

Charles Deshler

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Location: Mid-Michigan

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Yes, i did look at it several times now.
My needs are MUCH smaller i think. I am now thinking about an exposed batch box(for quick heat), into a bellmass for heat storage.
Do i understand that the box and riser need to be fire proof refactory, and the bell can be simple steel or cement?

"Our greatest fear should not be of failure but of succeeding at things in life that don't really matter.”
~ Francis Chan.

Satamax Antone

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Location: Southern alps, on the French side of the french /italian border 5000ft elevation

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The Rocket "burners" need to be made out of refractory material usually.

In a batch box, you have the firebox, in which you stuff a batch of wood. And the heat riser. Then after, you have the "barrel" a radiator of some kind, metal usually. But in the case of the video above. There's no barrel, just mass.

I was wondering. How high is your ceiling? How's your workshop insulation?

Pictures of the workshop could be a good idea too.

God of procrastination https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1EoT9sedqY

Peter van den Berg

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posted 8 years ago

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Charles Deshler wrote:Do i understand that the box and riser need to be fire proof refactory, and the bell can be simple steel or cement?

I would recommend to use heat resistant materials for everything above the level of the riser. Lower than that it could be ordinary bricks and cement/lime mortar. Or clay/sand for that matter.

regards, Peter

Charles Deshler

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Location: Mid-Michigan

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Thank you Mr. Van Den Berg.

I will try to get a few pictures of my shop to post later today.
I will also try and give some approximate measurements for the stove location,
My side wall is only about 7.5 feet tall, and the ceiling slants up to a 12 foot peak.
1 side is 12' x 18'
The other side is 18' x 24'
8' opening in between the two "rooms"

"Our greatest fear should not be of failure but of succeeding at things in life that don't really matter.”
~ Francis Chan.

Glenn Herbert

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What is the dividing wall made of? If it is heatproof, you can put the heater close to it; if not, you will need clearances which may make passageway issues.

Satamax Antone

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If anything fireproof, you could have a bell one side and the other bell on the other side!

God of procrastination https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1EoT9sedqY

Charles Deshler

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Location: Mid-Michigan

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Glenn Herbert wrote:What is the dividing wall made of? If it is heatproof, you can put the heater close to it; if not, you will need clearances which may make passageway issues.

None of the walls are fireproof/ heat proof. Keeping the walkway as clear as possible is my goal for going with a smaller rocket. I will probably build some type of fire proof wall so i can snug the stove as close as possible
I am sorry for the delay in getting back to this, i have been out of town.

"Our greatest fear should not be of failure but of succeeding at things in life that don't really matter.”
~ Francis Chan.

Glenn Herbert

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Is the divider wall removable, or structural? Does it serve a purpose for you? If you can remove it but want a wall there, you could build a tall narrow bell in place of part of the wall.

Charles Deshler

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Location: Mid-Michigan

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Glenn Herbert wrote:Is the divider wall removable, or structural? Does it serve a purpose for you? If you can remove it but want a wall there, you could build a tall narrow bell in place of part of the wall.

The way the shop is set up, i can't do much with the wall.

"Our greatest fear should not be of failure but of succeeding at things in life that don't really matter.”
~ Francis Chan.

Satamax Antone

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Satamax Antone wrote:

Pictures of the workshop could be a good idea too.

Quoting myself!

God of procrastination https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1EoT9sedqY

Charles Deshler

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Location: Mid-Michigan

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Satamax Antone wrote:

Satamax Antone wrote:

Pictures of the workshop could be a good idea too.

Quoting myself!

So would pictures help?

Maybe a quick video if i can manage. Shop is a wreck and still under construction so we will try for clearity

"Our greatest fear should not be of failure but of succeeding at things in life that don't really matter.”
~ Francis Chan.

Satamax Antone

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Location: Southern alps, on the French side of the french /italian border 5000ft elevation

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Whatever you like. Photos are usually easier to understand. It's just in case we see something better than your original plan. What do you do in there?

God of procrastination https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1EoT9sedqY

Charles Deshler

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Location: Mid-Michigan

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How do i ad pictures?

"Our greatest fear should not be of failure but of succeeding at things in life that don't really matter.”
~ Francis Chan.

Charles Deshler

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Location: Mid-Michigan

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Picture was HUGE

"Our greatest fear should not be of failure but of succeeding at things in life that don't really matter.”
~ Francis Chan.

Charles Deshler

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Location: Mid-Michigan

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I am not sure how to post pics

"Our greatest fear should not be of failure but of succeeding at things in life that don't really matter.”
~ Francis Chan.

Charles Deshler

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Location: Mid-Michigan

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OK, Not sure if thats right but there is a couple pictures of my messy shop. I have just added an 12x 18 addition to the 18x24 main.
I am self employed so i have shoved items around and kept up production while trying to work on the building. Its a wreck. :/

The top Pic:
The white wall is an outside wall, and is about 7.5' tall. That is where i want to exit the building with my Chiminey.
The door you see just goes into my Spray booth and is of no concern for this project. It is self contained/heated
The opening going into the main shop, is 8' x 8'
Stove is in approximate location of where i need to place it for proper clearance. I may build a fire proof insulated shield/wall to protect the wood and get me a few more inches.
I am standing in the outside doorway talking the pictures.

Bottom pic:
The little bit of wall you can see next to the Bandsaw is a closet. 6' x 9'
The opening is 8' x 8'
The room goes back 24' and is 18' wide.
ALL of the items in that pile to the right of the stove will be gone by tomorrow after i clean. The tall grey items are the rest of my roof trim, and need to be installed if not raining.
The walk way is actually more open than i expected it to be.

SO:
I am thinking a small Rocket Heater for efficiency and space savings?? Better clearance?
The building is WELL insulated.

"Our greatest fear should not be of failure but of succeeding at things in life that don't really matter.”
~ Francis Chan.

Satamax Antone

gardener

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Location: Southern alps, on the French side of the french /italian border 5000ft elevation

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Charles, i can't see your pictures. By the look of their address, that's hosted on a mail server. That ought to be private. Just look bellow your reply, when you reply, there's attachements. Just post your two pics there.

God of procrastination https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1EoT9sedqY

Charles Deshler

Posts: 23

Location: Mid-Michigan

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Satamax Antone wrote:Charles, i can't see your pictures. By the look of their address, that's hosted on a mail server. That ought to be private. Just look bellow your reply, when you reply, there's attachements. Just post your two pics there.

I am not sure i follow ya.

"Our greatest fear should not be of failure but of succeeding at things in life that don't really matter.”
~ Francis Chan.

Satamax Antone

gardener

Posts: 3471

Location: Southern alps, on the French side of the french /italian border 5000ft elevation

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Charles Deshler wrote:

Satamax Antone wrote:Charles, i can't see your pictures. By the look of their address, that's hosted on a mail server. That ought to be private. Just look bellow your reply, when you reply, there's attachements. Just post your two pics there.

I am not sure i follow ya.

Well, you'll see in the picture bellow, that there is an attachement tab highlighted in red. You click on that one, and it gets you to the attachement download tab. Where you see circled in red again, the choose file. Where you put the address of the photo you want from your computer. Not from google mail, which doesn't work.

Then, either chose another file, or post your message.

Got it?

attachements.jpg

God of procrastination https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1EoT9sedqY

Charles Deshler

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Location: Mid-Michigan

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IMG_20160827_204535686.jpg

IMG_20160827_204542661.jpg

"Our greatest fear should not be of failure but of succeeding at things in life that don't really matter.”
~ Francis Chan.

Glenn Herbert

Rocket Scientist

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Location: Upstate NY, zone 5

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I would be scared of putting a woodstove in such a crowded woodworking shop - way too much potential for combustible items or sawdust to end up near or on a super-hot surface. As a matter of fact, I would be wary of a standard RMH too, for the same reason (even though there might be less super-hot surface to worry about). A vertical masonry bell containing a rocket core, J-tube or batchbox, would be as safe as it is possible to be while heating effectively. You can't use the space above a woodstove or RMH barrel anyway, so going vertical would not be a problem. A bell with at least 8" masonry thickness could even meet code while as close as maybe 4" (need to check the code on that) to a combustible wall. It might need a metal shield with an inch of airspace, but even then you would have little wasted space.

Satamax Antone

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Location: Southern alps, on the French side of the french /italian border 5000ft elevation

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Yep, no barrel would seem in order. And, what about support underneath?

May be Peter's solution with bricks lined inside a barrel, and a layer or two of loose bricks above?

God of procrastination https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1EoT9sedqY

Charles Deshler

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Location: Mid-Michigan

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Glenn, I understand your concern. I almost didnt want to post the pictures because it so cluttered right now. I am building the shop, keeping up with production and most importantly, not heating right now. It normally is nowhere near that crowded and messy, i am very careful with keeping the area clean. That small woodburner has been used, in less space, for many years with no issues.

Do you think a masonary heater like the one in my original post would be the safe bet?
That seems to be all brick, with a J tube inside.
Thank you guys for the inputs

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~ Francis Chan.

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