Rocket Mass Heater Workshop just outside of Missoula, Montana - October 26-28th, 2012

Come get your hands dirty & get inspired to heat & cook more efficiently!

On the agenda:
Rocket Mass Heater & Rocket Stove projects & applications, with instruction from Ernie & Erica Wisner.

1. Portable Rocket Mass Heaters - Paul Wheaton style
2. Rumford Fireplace
3. J-tube rocket cook stoves - Super Classy Version, and Simple version made from available materials.

Dream Projects: Touching on the topic of "Boom Squish" - using a Rocket Mass Heater to heat water & in place of a wood boiler system.

There are 24 seats available, at $320/person, until August 15th. After August 15th, registration is at full price: $400/person.
Based on interest, camping & accommodation information to follow.

Bonus: Hang with Paul Wheaton in the motherland.
Bonus +: Meet Ernie & Erica Wisner!

Please note: this is a hands-on workshop. Child & Dog care is not provided.

Please post your interest, comments and questions, or requests for educational topics during this workshop to this thread, and stay tuned to this thread for more details & updates.
Or, to sign up now & reserve your space, contact us directly via email: ruggedtraditions@gmail.com.

We look forward to meeting great folks interested in permaculture & efficiently heating cold climates & the Northwest!

We are really excited about the workshop and the chance to talk about some new and innovative techniques and topics about heating and rocket mass heaters.

Dont know what a Rocket Mass Heater is? Check out Paul Wheatons article to learn more about them. http://www.richsoil.com/rocket-stove-mass-heater.jsp

For anyone who doesnt already know who Erica & Ernie Wisner are. They are two of the leading experts and builders in the world when it comes to Rocket Mass Heaters.
For more info and pictures check out there website http://www.ernieanderica.info/

Erica & Ernie will be traveling the US doing workshops, installations, and consultations this summer and fall. For more info on there trip you can follow this thread here at permies.
https://permies.com/t/11897/stoves/Ernie-Erica-heading-out-east

If you are on the fence about this workshop, jump off and join us for the reveal of the shippable, one-piece cast J-Tube core from Ernie & Erica Wisner, featured in the portable RMH design by Paul Wheaton! Caleb Larson will also be incorporating Alternative Energy & Boiler System thoughts. Plus, you get to hang out with Ernie, Erica and Paul in Missoula, MT!

While I'd love to come to this workshop and learn about rocket mass heaters I cannot since I live in the NorthEast.

I can totally appreciate someone charging a fee to learn something like this so I don't expect you to just put online a complete video of the class. At the same time while I find your videos enormously helpful and informative, they are just so short. I can't imagine a 3-5 minute excerpt of such an event to be all that informative or capture the nuances of a full class in video form.

So have you thought of hiring a videographer for the event to make an actual video that Ernie, Erica + (you)whoever else can actually sell (hardcopy or digital dowload)? That way this knowledge can be disseminated to the rest of us that can't attend?

Thanks,
Elia

I agree with Elia, and am also in the northeast. Sure would like to learn some more about this great way to heat and cook. I'll be watching here for developments.
Thanks for getting this together!

I'm on board for paying $50 for a copy of the up coming event. I'll even pre pay! Work and being in So. Cal make it impossible to attend. I know you all will put on a good show. I'm serious about a pre-pay thing. If we get enough prepayers maybe this can happen? Please, please,please....
Jim
PS please?

I too am unable to attend, but as a past student of Ernie and Erica's would highly recommend that those who can, do attend. I would also pay for a copy of the information written or video of the new techniques that make it easier to heat with rocket mass heaters in the cold Okanogan Highlands!
Jan B. Washington State

Count me in as well for the paid video copy. What do you think about having a kickstarter campaign to hire a video crew and making it into a bona fide for-sale course? I would jump on the opportunity to support it. For me, it's not the cost that's the issue ($320 is cheap!) but the time availability.

I also ENCOURAGE having a formal videograph/film crew set up to make a GREAT DVD with optional downloadable version.

And I am also willing to donate $50 for the cause.

Let's spread this around to other websites/forums/blogs and social media, etc.

HEY EVERYBODY, 2012 is definitely a great year for many major life-changing events. INCLUDING a great DVD of this event, to change wood heating in LEAPS AND BOUNDS.

Keep in mind, multiple video crews said they were going to film the sepp event. And then bailed at the last second. There was so much that he said that was amazingly profound - I guess you had to be there.

I'll be there with my camera. Maybe a pro will buy a ticket and do something big. Or maybe they will say they will and in the end it doesn't happen.

Paul -- are you saying there was a film crew that was hired to do the job and then bailed?! Man, that makes me a little sad. That would have been another video set I'd have been grateful to buy.

I'm saying that I heard of a bunch of different "film crews" that were going to be there. My first thought was that things could weird between them. They all bailed.

Bummer.

If you and the other organizers and presenters are open to the idea, I will try to find out what kind of money it would take to get a pro film crew out there and set up a kickstarter to see if we can make it happen. I think RMHs and wood cooking appliances are popular enough that there could be enough interest on the wider Internet to raise a few thousand dollars, which *seems* like it would be enough to hire somebody to do it. Don't know for sure, but it should be easy enough to find out.

Keep in mind, multiple video crews said they were going to film the sepp event. And then bailed at the last second. There was so much that he said that was amazingly profound - I guess you had to be there.

I'll be there with my camera. Maybe a pro will buy a ticket and do something big. Or maybe they will say they will and in the end it doesn't happen.

I second that it was a shame there wasn't more video on the Sepp event. I also can completely understand the value of physically being there but as a replacement I would gladly pay money to watch a video of it. Not to get into "the corporate whore" world that you talk about(as I also have unfortunately much experience in), but did these film crews have to sign contracts? Where they formally hired? Or just people with good intentions that flaked?

I think a Kickstarter is a great idea to get this event on video. I would prepay for it as well.

Also think about the attention you would achieve simply by putting it on Kickstarter. How many people out there have ever heard of rocket mass heaters? You may find people in the area of Missoula that would want to come simply by finding you on Kickstarter.

About a Video of the Event

We are discussing some options for getting the event filmed in a high quality format.

With as much interest as there has been in this thread we are seriously looking at making it a reality.

However can we please get this thread back on topic.

If you would like to get on a list for updates on a video. Please send me an email ruggedtraditions@gmail.com

Thanks,

Caleb

Wish things like this could sometimes be done during extended vacation times because for those of us far far away the travel time and cost make attending what is sure to be a great function, impossible. I know everyone cannot be accommodated all the time but these things always seem to be during the school year making attendance impossible for teachers.

Hello Paul, I am unable to attend and would like to jump on board all of the video requests bandwagon! Please provide extensive video for us PNWers. I will buy one and share with others too!

I am also interested in seeing this in video form.

Hi all,
If you can't make it to Missoula this fall, take a look at our workshop schedule and see if there's something in your area. Most of these are more standard rocket-mass-heater workshops or intros, but there's always the opportunity to ask questions about special topics.
Max - There are definitely options to suit most vacation schedules, but you'll have to get on it quick.

As with many warm, dynamic, personal, intimate, complicated, social experiences, video is no substitute for participation.

A big thank-you to Paul, Caleb, and Krista for pulling together the resources to make a lot of the Rocket Mass Heaters forum fantasies a reality we can share. We would have been happy to go about our business, quietly stacking bricks and re-introducing the American public to the simple joys of earthen masonry and affordable comfort. We like our mud benches. But Paul showed us an opportunity to reach more - and different - people with a quick, portable, lower-mass version. And Caleb brings years of experience with owner-operated domestic hot water to combine with Ernie's behind-the-scenes development. Modern conveniences for a sustainable future!

This workshop will be one-of-a-kind, and that is based mostly on the people who are already planning to be there.
I'm sure everyone who signs up will bring their own special powers, too.

Hope you can join us,
yours,
Erica W
http://www.ErnieAndErica.info

I know that just the fire sciences thing that happens on friday night would fill a full DVD.

Then all the rest of it would fill a dozen more DVDs.

Mass produced DVDs sell for $20 a pop. And limited production DVDs sell for $30 a pop. How many of you are willing to shell out $400 for the full DVD set of this workshop, when you can attend the real thing for much less and be able to actually ask questions?

Don't forget to add in travel time and cost.

1551 miles one way/ 40 mpg * $3.50 * 2 = $271

25 hours of drive time = 2 full days there and 2 full days back.

Paying a few hundred dollars for this information in a DVD format would possibly work for many of us.

Personally, when I am in the midst of a hands on learning event, I miss quite a bit of what happens. Due to learning styles and being "differently abled", I cannot listen, take notes and pay attention at the same time.

SO, having DVD's for lifelong learning are effective ways to learn for many of us.

If we cannot personally afford them, maybe a local library or some other entity might purchase them for the local area.

And the travel and lodging and food expenses would make it cost prohibitive for many to come.

So, a few hundred dollars for something to refer to for years to come, this figures out to be a bargain.

Caleb would like for us to stay on topic about the workshop, as he mentioned. DO we need to start another thread to discuss this possibility of DVD's of this workshop?

Blessings
Max

Sorry to get away from the video topic I am considering attending the workshop and I had a few questions:

What time does it start on the Friday?

How far is it from the Misoula airport (easy transit access?)?

What are the accomodation options?

Adrien,

The workshop will start late afternoon on Friday. Ernie and Erica will be demonstrating Fire Science that evening.

We are located about 10 miles from the Missoula airport. We can arrange for someone to pick you up, there are also several rental car companies at the airport.

Accomodations. Camping on site is an option, there are also several hotels near the airport.

Caleb,

thanks for the info. How cold is it in Missoula this time of year? I.e. would I need very warm camping gear? Are most people staying on site?

Sent email. SO excited this sounds awesome! Anyone coming from the Southwest that wants to split gas. I checed airline tickets and they are expensive. What would the camping look like? WHere?

Adrien and Ryan - Thanks for your interest! It most certainly is going to be awesome!
The temperature in Missoula at the end of October can be very nice and sunny, can be brisk and cool, or can be snowing. At the very least, the temperature does cool considerably at night, and I would suggest bringing all the ranges of layered clothes you are comfortable and can work in, i.e. shorts, and a winter jacket. After all, it's Montana!
For accommodations - we will have areas for camping, and possibly a bunk-house situation. We will have a common outdoor wash area and toilet area. We are working out the details based on attendee interest. There are also a variety of nearby accommodations that have more creature comforts available.
We have a couple of community/public areas for eating and working, that will be heated and have something going on for most of the times of the workshop, that you can always hang out and warm up in if necessary.

If you have questions, or want to see if a request is available, contact us and we can let you know the possibilities.
Email Caleb at ruggedtraditions@gmail.com

I may just burst from the excitement of all we will be covering at this workshop! Don't miss the big reveal!!

Adrien Lapointe wrote:Caleb,

thanks for the info. How cold is it in Missoula this time of year? I.e. would I need very warm camping gear? Are most people staying on site?

Yes, to be clear, I would recommend warm camping gear. We don't yet have a final tally on campers vs. non-campers, but if it is comfortable for you, I would recommend camping on site! There are many conversations and experiences you will have by staying with all us folks on site.

Thanks Krista,

I would definitely prefer staying on site both to minimize cost and enjoy the company of other permaculture/eco enthusiast. The bunk house would be a better option if it is available as it would reduce the amount of gear I have to bring on the plane.

Ok Folks here is the Schedule

We just spent the weekend with Ernie & Erica.

We had a great time playing with Rocket Mass Heaters, eating great food, and we had some great discussions as well.

The following includes the schedule that we came up with.

Please let me know if you have any additional questions.
ruggedtraditions@gmail.com

We are looking forward to meeting everyone.



Domestic Rocket Science: Wood-Fueled Modern Convenience

As the big finish of their Great Green Northern Tour, Erica and Ernie Wisner are coming to Missoula in October to demonstrate the latest in clean-burning, super-efficient wood-fueled technology.
By 'clean burning' we mean less than 10 minutes of faintly tinted smoke over the entire 4-hour burn cycle (the main burn produces only steam and CO2). By 'super-efficient' we mean producing 24-hour heat from that same 4-hour burn, while routinely using less than 1 cord of wood in homes that formerly consumed 4 to 10 cords per winter. By 'wood-fueled', we mean you can run one without ever cutting down another tree - they can be operated entirely on (dry) waste wood such as ladder fuels, dead and down limbs, shop scrap, and orchard trimmings.
This is an opportunity to seriously reduce household heating bills, environmental footprint, and reclaim some space in the woodshed for more enjoyable projects.

The workshop includes
- hands-on practice with traditional skills: building, masonry, metal-fitting, fire making, and use of modern refractory materials;
- the most efficient, affordable, DIY-friendly designs for earthen masonry heaters, fireplaces, and cookstoves (participants receive printed diagrams of our favorite design for each purpose);
- cutting-edge convenience for the modern home: pre-cast, drop-in-place heater cores; 'portable' mass heaters for temporary installation; and an introduction to domestic hot water.
- discussion of practical essentials including safety, code compliance vs. non-permitted installation, design and materials selection for participants' unique situations.

Course Schedule*: (*actual timing may be adapted to suit weather and the group's skills and interests.)

Friday PM: Fire science & Pyro-History demos
(Bonfire, Fox Stove, Jug Stove, Rumford & "ox-cooker" fireplaces, hot-stack effect, oven (concept not install), organic campfire treats)

Saturday: The Rocket Stove and Rocket Mass Heater
- Saturday AM: Traditional masonry & rocket stove practice: fireplace refinement, brick mockups for the Boil Challenge; one batch of cob or 'fireclay mortar' for chinking. Demo Pocket Rockets, Turkey/Tea Stove, 'Wood stove'.
- Noon: Boil water in 6 minutes challenge (and enjoy fresh hot drinks with lunch)
- Saturday PM: The Portable RMH (1 hour with Q&A)
- Saturday PPM: Full-Scale Mass Heaters; earthen masonry methods & load calculations,

Sunday: Code-Compliance and Modern Conveniences
- Sunday AM: Ernie & Caleb demonstrate water heater; cautionary commentary/discussion
- Sunday PM: Masonry Heater ASTM review and design charette for installation situations. Release main group at 3 pm.
- After-Party: Turkey Fryer Challenge? 4pm

It was so exciting to have Ernie and Erica this weekend!
Without giving too much away, here are a few photos from over the weekend.

My poor memory makes it difficult for me to remember what is said in a video. I will soon start on a outdoor BBQ kitchen that I want to have three rocket burners and an oven and all are heating water to be piped to the house hot water system while any cooking is going on. I would love to see any pictures and text that would help me figure out how to do this.

Thanks

Frank
Southern Philippines

Dang, I wish this was happening a lot closer to where I live. I just can't get there. Might be able to get someone to care for the critters but I can't justify the cost to me or the environment to get up there.
Are there any experts on RMH or at least folks who know how to do it here in N. E. Texas? Preferably, close to the Hunt County area? I've tried to make a rocket stove out of tin cans but now that we have a burn ban going here I'd rather not experiment with it. It would just be too embarrassing not to mention dangerous if my design for the thing went wrong somehow. Dangerous because of the area wide drought and embarrassing because I'm on the vol. Fire Department!

Erica Wisner wrote:

As with many warm, dynamic, personal, intimate, complicated, social experiences, video is no substitute for participation.

While I can totally appreciate this as it is the best way I learn and teach. I have a family, a job, no vacation time left and live more than 2000 miles away. I would pay 30 a pop+ for this information in video format. It seems to me many others would too. Just seems like a lost opportunity for those holding the knowledge. While it would be ideal for us all to learn through apprentice style workshops...sometimes its just unfeasible.

Even $400 one time compared to $200 a month for gas heating cost in the winter seems like nothing.

Sorry its not "on-topic"... but for those of us that are excited to learn these things but can't make it, what else is?

Is there still room? How many have signed up so far?

Ryan H wrote:Is there still room? How many have signed up so far?

Hi Ryan, I know there is still room, but I haven't heard of the final tally from Caleb yet, as payments are coming in every day.
Let us know if you have any other questions!

Elia Charalambides wrote:

I would pay 30 a pop+ for this information in video format. It seems to me many others would too. Just seems like a lost opportunity for those holding the knowledge. While it would be ideal for us all to learn through apprentice style workshops...sometimes its just unfeasible.

Even $400 one time compared to $200 a month for gas heating cost in the winter seems like nothing.

Sorry its not "on-topic"... but for those of us that are excited to learn these things but can't make it, what else is?

Hi Elia, Thanks for your input, and I definitely understand where you are coming from!
A lot of the video hesitation comes from a few things:
1. The nature of the hot water addition to RMH's will NOT be filmed, because of the liability, and this is one of several huge innovations & reveals at this particular workshop.
2. The time, cost, and commitment of a videographer and crew is a large task to organize, on top of the workshop. Several things have been discussed, and we will definitely let everyone know if a solution is reached and set in stone, especially due to the interest!
3. The priority for viewing what's going on, and experience, will always go to those who have paid and committed to coming in person first, so balancing those interests is also a consideration.

We really appreciate all the interest, and are trying to provide the best experience for ALL. Even those who can't attend will benefit from this, because these reveals mean that some big things are happening in the world of RMH's!

If the hot water portion won't be filmed how will it achieve widespread dispersal among the permies group?

Max Kennedy wrote:If the hot water portion won't be filmed how will it achieve widespread dispersal among the permies group?

Good question Max, and the details are still being worked out for video sharing. As I mentioned before, it's a huge liability, and there is caution in making a video for wide distribution, without any pre-qualifications, that show a "how to do hot water". Thanks for your understanding, and as I also mentioned before, we will share whatever we can, when we can.

Hi Krista,

I didn't mean to press the point but all this "technology" is very exciting to learn about.

Thank you for spending the time looking into a videographer and the possibility of spreading this great knowledge far and wide.

If its too much to do it in this event have you considered just filming the same content at a later date? Maybe Kickstarting it too?