Regulations make it an awkward spot... Still need to terrace.

So hey, how's it going?

I own about 41 acres of farm land within a reservation. For obvious & very important reasons digging can be a problem in the way we don't want to disturb any artifacts or God for bid anything burial.

Typically we get what's called a cultural survey for a project, but before current global events it took 1-3 months for that to happen.

We were hit (our area) with a major made national news flood that devastated our area a month before we went on lock down. All of that means there are far more important things on their plates + a skeleton crew, so it's a 6-10 month wait. It will be winter again by then & part of the survey is a person being present to look for artifacts, the ground will be frozen.

Yet I bought farm land (I grew up here, family lives here. Didn't just randomly decide to move to the rez.) & desperately for the sake of our business begin farming these hills.

Sooooo talk to me all about terracing on a largish scale that doesn't involve earthworks that actually dig into the soil?

I can terrace all I want so long as I build it on top of the land (which is not a huge loss soil wise, we've got hard eroded clay here) & I've got a basic idea of how I'll do this (rebar,wood,rock,fill,repeat) but I'm a super visual spatial person & haven't been able to find much on folks doing this beyond a small little something in a backyard.

Got any examples that are big'ish? Ideas? Worries? Similar situation where digging more than a foot is problematic?

We're hopeful to get about an acres worth put in to start.

My Dad wants us to use concrete geo blocks but that would really take bringing in some serious equipment & I'm really looking for something we can do with nothing more than our tractor & our hands.

There are many way to solve a given problem.

As I understand it you need to resolve issues with rapid surface run off, and associated soil loss and flooding. You want to be able to use the land for farming. I presume that means ploughing and typical farm equipment is ok, even if digging a trench for a swale/terrace is not?

What is your climate? If it is relatively warm year round you might look into a biological solution like vetiver grass hedges, planted on contour. They build biomass, slow surface runoff, stabilise soil and trap sediment. Over time natural terraces build upslope of them as they trap sediment. They are cheap and highly effective if they suit your conditions.

If traditional ploughing is permitted then, rather than digging swale trenches, you might consider ploughing on contour to make shallow scrapes and ridges. They won't hold as much water as proper swales, but are a step in the right direction.

Some specifics of your situation would help; climate, location, slope, amount of rainfall, soil condition etc...

April, from your description, I am visualizing the way you want to make these terraces would be similar to raise garden beds?

I am imagining making retaining walls then filling them in with dirt.  Is that your idea?

Do you have lots of rock available to build rock walls?  I saw a picture here on permies of terraces made with brick walls that I might be able to find to show you what I am talking about.

Another idea that I saw that I also might be able to find the pictures is to make gabion retaining walls with rocks.

Michael Cox wrote:There are many way to solve a given problem.

As I understand it you need to resolve issues with rapid surface run off, and associated soil loss and flooding. You want to be able to use the land for farming. I presume that means ploughing and typical farm equipment is ok, even if digging a trench for a swale/terrace is not?

What is your climate? If it is relatively warm year round you might look into a biological solution like vetiver grass hedges, planted on contour. They build biomass, slow surface runoff, stabilise soil and trap sediment. Over time natural terraces build upslope of them as they trap sediment. They are cheap and highly effective if they suit your conditions.

If traditional ploughing is permitted then, rather than digging swale trenches, you might consider ploughing on contour to make shallow scrapes and ridges. They won't hold as much water as proper swales, but are a step in the right direction.

Some specifics of your situation would help; climate, location, slope, amount of rainfall, soil condition etc...

We've got a keyline plow so will primarily be using that, but no we're not looking to do normal farming that involves massive scale tilling (still isn't allowed without a survey).

We need terraces for the sake of planting hundreds of different varieties of herbal plants for our business & I was looking for ways to quickly terrace without doing any earth moving work.

Not to say we can't implement the process for natural ones in way further out zones that it will take us years to expand to.

Anne Miller wrote:April, from your description, I am visualizing the way you want to make these terraces would be similar to raise garden beds?

I am imagining making retaining walls then filling them in with dirt.  Is that your idea?

Do you have lots of rock available to build rock walls?  I saw a picture here on permies of terraces made with brick walls that I might be able to find to show you what I am talking about.

Another idea that I saw that I also might be able to find the pictures is to make gabion retaining walls with rocks.

Essentially yes, we do have a lot of rock from a small quarry on our property but instead of tediously staking in I'm thinking of dumping small loads behind the boards we put up. The idea being once the wood rots out the rocks have had time to settle/fill in & become the main stabilizing factor for each bench.

Well... This is not really economical...but,

In my area the concrete companies make "ecology blocks" from leftover concrete, they're essentially federal road barriers weighing two tons and are 4'x2'x2', because it's waste concrete already paid for by the original customer the blocks sell for around $40.00

Also, every year the farmers have metric tons of unsold hay in ton bales that they sell for pennies or just give away to get it out of the fields.

If you lined up the ecology blocks on the downhill side and put the hay bales above to molder down.
After the first year (maybe two) spread soil and mix it with the hay and your'e golden.

While I'm no farmer (I don't even play one on TV!) I've had good luck with straw bale gardens, and doing it on an industrial scale seams like a good way to build soil. And the ecology blocks a simple way to establish terraces.

The real cost to this is a substantial tractor, adequate to comfortably lift a 4000 pound block....

April Pankratz wrote: Essentially yes, we do have a lot of rock from a small quarry on our property but instead of tediously staking in I'm thinking of dumping small loads behind the boards we put up. The idea being once the wood rots out the rocks have had time to settle/fill in & become the main stabilizing factor for each bench.

I've considered terracing with rock on a south-facing slope but always abandoned the idea because I was going to attempt it by hand with no machinery to move the rock.  My only concern with dumping the rock behind the boards is will the rock actually be settled enough to retain the soil when the wood eventually rots?  I don't know what rock is native to your area, but here it's sandstone and I don't know if I'd trust anything but large stones to hold back soil and even then I'd probably attempt to stack and fill behind the boards as if I were building a stone retaining wall.  Of course your slope may not be as steep as I'm envisioning either.  One solution I regularly see here where the road banks erode is using steel posts and heavy wire fencing to hold back the rock and then that's not always successful.  I'd hate to see you go to all the work to build walls only to have them fail in a few years.

Michells said=  My only concern with dumping the rock behind the boards is will the rock actually be settled enough to retain the soil when the wood eventually rots?

That is why I suggested the gabion, like this:

Are you allowed to drive stakes into the ground, or does that fall under the same rules as digging?

If stakes are ok, then one option would be to drive a bunch of stakes in a row along the contours, attach a board to the uphill sides of the stakes, with the board touching the ground, then treat that like the edge of a raised bed. You'd probably need a ton of them to cover the kind of area you're talking about, but each individual one would be fairly simple.

There's another way I thought of, but it would definitely fall under "major earthworks", even though it doesn't require actual digging. Start at the bottom of the hill, in a hopefully flat spot. Use concrete and rebar to build an L-shaped wall, facing the slope. When the concrete has cured, fill the space between the wall and the hillside. Use the top of the filled section as the platform for a second L-shaped wall. Continue until you've reached the top.

I'm never sure how well I'm describing things, so I've attached sketches.

Ok,

So I think I have a better picture now of what you want. I think that it is the water retention/flood mitigation that is the driving factor, rather than necessarily needing to make the land flat?

Do you have access to woody brash material in your area? If so could you build long, above ground, hugelculture mounds? These provide an immediate site to plant your herbs and shrubs, while also mitigating surface water.

Any of the other suggestions seen above look like they will still require large amounts of earth moving to eg fill planting beds, or construct the flat terraces.

Bill Haynes wrote:Well... This is not really economical...but,

In my area the concrete companies make "ecology blocks" from leftover concrete, they're essentially federal road barriers weighing two tons and are 4'x2'x2', because it's waste concrete already paid for by the original customer the blocks sell for around $40.00

Also, every year the farmers have metric tons of unsold hay in ton bales that they sell for pennies or just give away to get it out of the fields.

If you lined up the ecology blocks on the downhill side and put the hay bales above to molder down.
After the first year (maybe two) spread soil and mix it with the hay and your'e golden.

While I'm no farmer (I don't even play one on TV!) I've had good luck with straw bale gardens, and doing it on an industrial scale seams like a good way to build soil. And the ecology blocks a simple way to establish terraces.

The real cost to this is a substantial tractor, adequate to comfortably lift a 4000 pound block....

Yeah we call those geo blocks here & while we can get a lot of different sizes we're not super keen on the level of equipment it would take, it's probably something we'd do for some of our steeper areas that are in a way more accessible to machines.

We have cattle so for sure are familiar with waste bails although we use them with the pigs at the moment for a different established garden plot.

Michael Cox wrote:Ok,

So I think I have a better picture now of what you want. I think that it is the water retention/flood mitigation that is the driving factor, rather than necessarily needing to make the land flat?

Do you have access to woody brash material in your area? If so could you build long, above ground, hugelculture mounds? These provide an immediate site to plant your herbs and shrubs, while also mitigating surface water.

Any of the other suggestions seen above look like they will still require large amounts of earth moving to eg fill planting beds, or construct the flat terraces.

Nah it seems like you're stuck on what the terraces do beyond growing things. We need them primarily for the sake of growing things on a flat surface.

Hauling soil in isn't a problem nor is putting it in place as we have a tractor.

Our issue is not being allowed to dig/cut in terraces so I'm just looking to brainstorm above ground largeish scale options that won't take many seasons to initially develop.

While hugelcultuer is great it's not overly practical for a acres worth of planting + the drip lines we'll need.

Michelle Heath wrote:

I've considered terracing with rock on a south-facing slope but always abandoned the idea because I was going to attempt it by hand with no machinery to move the rock.  My only concern with dumping the rock behind the boards is will the rock actually be settled enough to retain the soil when the wood eventually rots?  I don't know what rock is native to your area, but here it's sandstone and I don't know if I'd trust anything but large stones to hold back soil and even then I'd probably attempt to stack and fill behind the boards as if I were building a stone retaining wall.  Of course your slope may not be as steep as I'm envisioning either.  One solution I regularly see here where the road banks erode is using steel posts and heavy wire fencing to hold back the rock and then that's not always successful.  I'd hate to see you go to all the work to build walls only to have them fail in a few years.

Luckily we have basalt so it's pretty substantial/insanely heavy. The wire is a good idea, we could do boards/wire/rock. The initial place we'll begin isn't to horrible of a slant but yeah on some of the steeper areas I'd be worried about the rock shifting with a good rain once the boards rot.

I sure wish I could get away with using railroad ties as I have about 200 or so that were here when we bought the place, but I can't risk the oil getting into the soil then into the plants that I have to get lab tested for our business😏

Ellendra Nauriel wrote:Are you allowed to drive stakes into the ground, or does that fall under the same rules as digging?

If stakes are ok, then one option would be to drive a bunch of stakes in a row along the contours, attach a board to the uphill sides of the stakes, with the board touching the ground, then treat that like the edge of a raised bed. You'd probably need a ton of them to cover the kind of area you're talking about, but each individual one would be fairly simple.

There's another way I thought of, but it would definitely fall under "major earthworks", even though it doesn't require actual digging. Start at the bottom of the hill, in a hopefully flat spot. Use concrete and rebar to build an L-shaped wall, facing the slope. When the concrete has cured, fill the space between the wall and the hillside. Use the top of the filled section as the platform for a second L-shaped wall. Continue until you've reached the top.

I'm never sure how well I'm describing things, so I've attached sketches.

Yep the board method is what we're thinking on since we can put in posts, although I was thinking of using T posts for substantial depth or if we need to maybe go two boards high.

It will be a lot of boards for sure but it seems like the less labor intensive/affordable option compared to concrete work.

Thanks for drawing me pictures😊

April Pankratz wrote:
Yep the board method is what we're thinking on since we can put in posts, although I was thinking of using T posts for substantial depth or if we need to maybe go two boards high.

I don't know how t-posts are in Thailand, but I can tell you from experience that in the US, they are rather bendable. More than I would like, that's for sure.

Annie Collins wrote:

April Pankratz wrote:
Yep the board method is what we're thinking on since we can put in posts, although I was thinking of using T posts for substantial depth or if we need to maybe go two boards high.

I don't know how t-posts are in Thailand, but I can tell you from experience that in the US, they are rather bendable. More than I would like, that's for sure.

Um does my profile say I'm in Thailand for some reason?😂 I'm in NE Oregon.

Yeah there's a big difference in garden style T posts & farm rated ones for sure, also a lot of people confuse Uposts with T posts. A true T post is basically a solid steel triangle with one tip that's longer & they're absurdly heavy/strong.

Also, the forum system is telling me my English isn't proper enough when I'm using letters in front of the word post haha.

April Pankratz wrote:Um does my profile say I'm in Thailand for some reason?😂 I'm in NE Oregon.

LOL!! I have no idea where my brain has ventured to today - some type of foggy place, for sure! Apologies for my useless post; your knowledge far exceeds mine in these things.
All best with your terracing project!

Just standing back a moment, and playing devil's advocate -- will additional earthworks impede the survey that allows you to terrace the land as it stands? I understand your drive to get things in the ground, but is that the best approach in the long term?

      Howdy,



            Your project sounds like a good one. My experience of terracing is on my property and with hand tools, however that being said I think I can offer you a few thoughts to consider for your farm. First, the kind of soil you have and the kind of soil you'll bring in is important. This greatly affects the, shall we say, the angle of repose of your slope off your benches. Secondly, you have to consider the existing slope of your property. These two factors will inform you about what you can and can't do. Go ahead and take a look at chapter 9 "Earthworking and Earth resources" of Mollison's design manual, especially page 230 fig. 9.3 it's a good explanation of what I'm talking about. Third, if the above stuff is in the ballpark, I don't see why you couldn't build your own benches; you're just doing it in the reverse, not taking away to make a flat space, but putting material on to make the flat space. Last, it would be prudent to consider the right time of the year to embark on your project.  Meaning rain or extreme dryness and how fast you can get plants to grow to stabilize your new slope. These are just a few thoughts you might want to consider. Best of luck!


      Thomas

      Mitama Farm
.

I just bought 14 acres that's mostly rock but has lots of trees.  It's a real tinderbox and there was a big deadly fire in the area a few years ago, so my plan is to thin the trees, partially cut through the branches so the trees lay flat, and lay them in lines on contour, anchoring them in spots with big boulders, and weaving the limbs and underbrush together to increase the density.  As I complete the tree piles, I plan to rearrange rocks above to funnel some portion of the runoff into these tree walls, which will eventually turn them into hugelculture style beds.

I've done this in a few small spots as experiments and it only takes a few seasons for them to start filling with rocks and dirt and solidifying into actual swales.

It seems like a lot of work, but the trees need thinned out anyway, and don't need to get processed, or hauled very far, and gravity and rain end up doing most of the work hauling heavy stuff in.

On some particularly steep sections, I've thought about anchoring steel cable at the top of the hill and tying the tree piles into it to keep them from washing down the mountain.

Michael Cox wrote:We've got a keyline plow so will primarily be using that,

If you are going to plant using keylines, then you don't need to terrace. The plants will be doing the work for you.
IIRC, the trick was to start a succesion of plants, shallow roots, normal and deep, so they develop the soil structure. Before seeding, a tool for breaking the crust is used following the keylines, like a knife cutting the soil. This infiltrates the water and moves it properly. Then it is the plants roots and stems what are going to hold water and prevent erosion. After three years the soil structure will be good enough for planting more demanding varieties.
If the slope is too steep (>15%), then you might have to plant trees between rows, not the herbs you wanted, and be patient.

Adding soil and most of the other solutions are good in small scale, but for a large one I think you have to work with what you have, and let change happen slowly instead of forcing something else.