Bitch in heat - help my poor dog

I've got a 8 month mastiff who is undergoing her first heat period. We were doing well for 2 weeks bleeding then my poor 8 year boy labrador started really feeling it and (understandably) won't leave her alone. Just wagging and panting, has hardly eaten. If I separate them to different rooms he barks and whines constantly and has hardly eaten for four days! Luckily he had a bit of 'baby fat' due to getting a bit more than he should whilst the pup was getting extra meals. What can I do to make his life better? Short of letting him have his wicked way with her - I don't think a litter of "mastadors" are what the world needs, although I'm sure they would be lovely dogs - as long as they inherited their mother's brains and their dads' looks, she's still only a baby herself!
Any idea how long this stage is likely to last? It's been 4 days so far and I'm hoping this will be the last day. How can I rid the house of bitch in heat smell to make it bearable for him again? I can smell it clearly and I have a poor sense of smell even for a human, so I imagine it must be overwhelming for poor Dyson!
Thanks!

I don't know any advice other than what you have suggested regarding separate rooms.

I mix a tablespoon of baking soda with 10 drops of essential oils then fill a spray bottle with water for neutralizing air so maybe something like that plus candles.

When I was raising German Sheperd puppies my dog were outside dogs, can the guy spend some time outside? Or maybe rotate the time with them both.

It will be interesting to hear others' thoughts on this.

The only thing you can do, in my experience, is keep them apart and wear ear plugs.   Dogs' sense of smell is outstanding, and they can smell things at hundreds of yards that we can't smell when they are front of us.  I don't believe anything you can do will make him not smell her.  If you have a friend that can pet-sit him, that might be your best bet.

I definitely wouldn't let them breed.  The world has far too many dogs already, and she is too young for it to be healthy anyway.

As far as him not eating, yeah, they do that.  It won't hurt him to not eat, and if he gets hungry enough, he'll eat.  

I feel for you.  I've been in that position a lot of times, it's really hard not to lose patience.  Try to remember it's millions of years of evolution driving it and he can't help it.

No easy suggestions here, unfortunately.  We had a Great Pyr in heat before she was spayed and tried to keep her inside the house more with our male Sarplaninac kept out.  Good thing we don't care much about the cosmetics of our entry doors cuz he pretty much scratched up all house doors trying to get in.  I've heard some people keep the female in a large horse trailer (proper food and water, of course) until it's done.  We did have a related experience of an unfixed pot-bellied boar pig that had just arrived at our homestead and was still in the back of our Ford F150 pick-up for a night to get used to the smells of the new property and home.  Again, just fortunate that this was a rough, older farm truck......cuz all night a large Hampshire sow wanted a piece of that "hunk of burnin' luv" in the back of that truck.  In the morning we found that she had torn off the trim and scraped the paint with her efforts...but still no access to the object of her affections..... :-)

Thanks all for your replies! I guess we'll have to just wait it out then and keep her safe. It seems only yesterday....

Dyson with baby Della

When we first got Della, Dyson was this way for a couple of days, but of course that was just excitement on having a baby. This time he wants to make babies!

It's another of those "things they don't tell you about having dogs". I'm hearing all sorts of stories in the shop today as well - people telling me about incidents they have had. One lady's dog ripped through someone's bitch's front door and was eating into the porch dry lining before he was stopped. Luckily we haven't had any visiting dogs yet!

We were going to get her spayed anyhow, and I'm even more inclined after the last few days - poor Dyson.

Shutting her somewhere would definitely have made it easier now, at least the whole house wouldn't have smelt of "hot dog" to Dyson.

We have 2 girls makes it a lot easier! (neither spayed and both about 10 years old now) I would have said as soon as she came into season send him to live with a friend for a couple of weeks, when he got back sure the house will smell of her but he'll be able to sniff her and see it's all over.

We just stick to females, with any critter type we don't want 'self-propagating'. Makes it easier on us and them.

Our puppy girl will probably have her first heat in a couple months.  Our older (almost 3) male is fixed, so no worries about accidental litters from them.  However, I'm sure he will still react to her being in heat on some level.  Should I assume we still need to keep them well separated until she's past it?  Both are German Shepherds.

Andrew Mayflower wrote:Our puppy girl will probably have her first heat in a couple months.  Our older (almost 3) male is fixed, so no worries about accidental litters from them.  However, I'm sure he will still react to her being in heat on some level.  Should I assume we still need to keep them well separated until she's past it?  Both are German Shepherds.

There may still be some humping (depends on the individual dogs), but, if you don't care, then I wouldn't worry about it, though if people come to visit, I'd probably separate them, if they do hump.

Andrew Mayflower wrote:Our puppy girl will probably have her first heat in a couple months.  Our older (almost 3) male is fixed, so no worries about accidental litters from them.  However, I'm sure he will still react to her being in heat on some level.  Should I assume we still need to keep them well separated until she's past it?  Both are German Shepherds.

My neutered males dogs would follow a female around that was in heat and sniff at her, but not in a way I found obnoxious, and never to any large degree.  They always seemed to lose interest quickly.

I have an intact male pyr-akbash, and he acts like he can smell a bitch in heat when they are nearly a mile away (neighbor’s “hill mix” mutts). Its the only time he runs off for more than a minute while on walks through the woods. My main concern would be his massive puppies’ heads (his skull-body ration is more like wolf proportions which are 2.5x a dog’s) hurting any smaller mother.  

When empathizing for Dyson, it helps to remember they are evolved to go through this and come out fine. Big dogs are well adapted for days of fasting.  Its also helped me to remember being a teenage boy surrounded by young women of technically biologically breeding age in high school, but having no real prospects or success (thankfully!), and I got through it! Tell Dyson he’ll have better luck in college.

Carla Burke wrote:
There may still be some humping (depends on the individual dogs), but, if you don't care, then I wouldn't worry about it, though if people come to visit, I'd probably separate them, if they do hump.

Almost certainly. my two girls go at it like rabbits when they are in heat, they take it in turns, since one is 3x the size of the other it is quite amusing to watch, but maybe not something for polite company.

I can't believe nobody has mentioned that if you can have a "mastador" then you can also have a "labrastiff." I will leave it there regarding your male dog.

Not to be overly obnoxious, but my standard answer to clients at our veterinary hospital was ….. neuter the  male and spay the female a month AGO.  Sorry, but I never understood why owners put off neutering their animals then paid me good money for a vet exam to “fix the problem” when their in-heat bitch made a mess around the house and the male got crabby, lifted his leg on things, scratched the doors, etc.

In my way of thinking, allowing your male dog to go through this frustration is like having hives all over your body and not being allowed to do thing to relieve the itching. The itching simply never stops for 24 hours a day. Maddening to say the least.

I commend you on your decision not to produce a litter of excess puppies. Retired from veterinary medicine, I now volunteer at local spay/neuter clinics. A cat clinic typically neuters 90-100 animals a day. A dog one, 40-50. It is frustrating to see the never ending flood of excess kittens and puppies being produced by non-neutered pets. No, it is not cute, educational, or whatever else to produce a litter without guaranteed homes lined up in advance. Try volunteering for a year at a spay clinic or in the kill room of your local shelter, then see what your opinion of random breeding will become.

Back to your dogs…….the first week or two your bitch is not normally receptive. Then her discharge changes a bit, along with her odor and signals to the male. This is when your male will become obsessed with breeding your female. After a few days, the desire will gradually diminish. I use to dispense chlorophyll tablets for the female  and sedatives for the male. These would only help….not cure the problem. I’d schedule neutering surgery. If the owners refused, we simply dropped them as a client. If we couldn’t educate the client as to humane treatment of their pets, we requested they use some other veterinary hospital. My staff would get frustrated with those kind of pet owners. Their job was stressful enough without having to deal with those sort of owners.

Thanks Su Ba,
Yes, we are intending to neuter Della, but my understanding is that it is better for the bitch (and dog too I think?) if they are more developed when they are neutered. Since she is a mastiff, she will go on growing for another year yet. My vet said he would neuter her at 9 months even if she hadn't had her heat (I think some think it is better for them to have had their first heat) but she's started at a younger age.
If I had realised beforehand that this stage would go on for so long and be so distressing for them (especially Dyson) I would have made arrangements for Dyson to go on holiday this week, but as I said it's not something that people tell you beforehand! Hindsight is a wonderful thing.
All we can do now is keep them apart as much as possible (which again they not happy about since they love each others company) and distract them with activities. I think things are starting to calm down a tiny bit now, so we're washing all the soft furnishings to get the smells out as much as possible.

SuBa, since you`re here and sharing info on the subject:
My last vet dumped me (it was mutual) for me spaying my male shepherd/pit youngish. I think it was maybe 5-6 months, but it was a long time ago... he said I should let him grow to at least a year first, (IMHO) spouting a bunch of human-psych hogwash about how his growth and behavior would be stunted and etc. I got the dog off the side of the road, I wasn't expecting him to be a show dog.
Anyhoo.... is there a "too early" for spaying? Does it differ between males or females?

I would not put my girl through a major surgery just to stop her dripping on the floor once a year. Obviously I do not have a male as well. And any vet that tried to force it would be instantly dropped.
My cats a brother and sister are spayed since I obviously cannot control what they do and still have useful cats. (and a season ever 3-4 weeks is different from once a year) But of the last 4 cats we've had spayed one has died from the op, so there is no way I would risk a major operation just for my own convenience.

I have mixed feelings about the spay/neuter suggestions.  I agree that we have far too many unwanted pets, and very few dogs should ever be bred.  On the other hand, there are very real problems associated with early spaying/neutering.

This article on top dogs tips is very simplified, but I thought did a good job outlining the issues.  Top Dog Tips - pro and cons of spay/neuter

An excerpt:
"A quick science-based overview of what we know today:

   Early dog neutering doubles the chance of hip dysplasia (1)
   Early dog neutering increases joint disorders in dogs by four times (2)
   Neutering dogs triples the risk of several joint problems in GSDs (3)
   Neutering decreases longevity in Rottweilers (4)
   Neutering increases the chance of cancer in dogs (5)"

Those are just the "cons" of course.  There are good reasons for as well.  I am of the mindset that early neutering is a bad idea.

There is a lot of controversy, a lot of differing opinions as to when and if to neuter a dog. Just as we are seeing in this discussion, it happens among veterinarians too. I have been attending veterinary conferences with participants from around the world, and learned that regional opinions vary greatly. Much of the opinions are based upon personal beliefs and incomplete or skewed scientific data. Knowledge on the subject changes significantly over the years, so that what I was taught decades ago is totally out of line with general opinion of the day. And new data is coming in every year, much of which is still to be tested, observed, and learned from. ……… not all that different than the permaculture journey of today.

Certain facts are truisms. Spaying a bitch before her first heat cycle totally eliminates breast cancer. When I first got into veterinary medicine, breast cancer was common enough. Among USA suburban pet households where spaying one’s dog early is common, breast cancer is seldom seen, I am told. Here in Hawaii where owners do not spay their females early, it is no surprise the find breast cancer in a bitch being brought in for spaying.

Non-spayed females are subject to infected uteruses, termed pyometra. It’s a life threatening condition that often requires emergency surgery. Yes there is medical treatment, which is not pleasant for the dog. And it does not necessarily cure the condition. Emergency surgery is expensive for the owner and trying for the veterinary staff. Owners are often angry with the veterinarian when an emergency spay is done, I suppose transferring their personal guilt to the veterinarian. This condition is totally avoidable, although an owner doesn’t want to hear that. At Hawaii spay clinics, it is no surprise to find early pyometra in some bitches being spayed.

Enlarged prostates in older non-neutered males is common, resulting in discomfort, difficulty urinating properly, interfering with bowel movements and normal walking stride. Owners do not notice the pet’s discomfort until the condition is well advanced. It is avoidable with neutering. Other common conditions I see often in my locale among non-neutered males is perianal cancer and hernia. Again, avoidable conditions.

Personally I see very little downside to neutering a dog. I see considerable benefits…. many. Can growth plates be affected? Yes, but what I have seen via continuing education at the vet conferences, we are talking about minuscule measurable differences. I see the lecturer enlarging an X-ray considerably in order to measure a minuscule suspected difference. Does such a small difference, if real, affect the dog itself?  I’m not sure because I’ve seen the identical sort of problems in other dogs that are not neutered. For example…….anti-neuter vets claim that early spaying causes urinary incontinence in bitches. But the numbers they cite are not really different from what I saw 50 years ago, when bitches were not usually spayed (during the time that these vocal vets weren’t  even born yet). I suspect that the incidence of urinary incontinence is about the same then as it is now.

So is there a definitive answer about early versus late neutering, or neutering at all? No. It’s a judgement call. Veterinarians still actively debate the subject among themselves. Much of the articles on the internet are skewed. It’s not possible for most pet owners to make a knowledgeable decision on their own. Trace, much of the information in the article you cite is debated among the professionals. So perhaps it comes down to gut feeling and looking at the overall results of early neutering that has been conducted over the past few decades. Far more dogs have been early neutered than late neutered. Is the early neutered group really having more problems than the late or non-neutered group? ….. Or are people selectively picking out cases to support their argument? I suspect the latter might often be the case.

The bottom line for me…… I am pro-neuter for many reasons. I will neuter are early as I feel I safely can. That often means 7-8 weeks of age in some pups. Commonly we see pups at the clinics coming in at 10-12 weeks of age. We consider that age to be ideal in that it is often the safest age for anesthesia, requires far less time and trauma for the pet, and the pup recovers very quickly with a extremely low rate of post surgical complications. Last year alone I assisted with neutering far more animals than the usual veterinarian sees in 5 years….maybe more.  

Su Ba wrote:There is a lot of controversy, ...

I don't have anywhere near your qualifications in this area, and don't presume to.  I did look at each of the studies referenced in the article, and they seemed to be true, peer reviewed studies.  Four of the studies are published on www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov and one was published in Veterinary Medicine and Science.  I don't have the background to really analyze the studies, but I'll take your word for it that the subject is controversial.  I don't believe that the people doing the studies were selectively picking cases, and they do concern me.

FWIW, the breeder we got our 3 year old male from, and our local vet, and nearly every resource we've found STRONGLY recommended waiting until at least 1 year old to neuter him since he's a German Shepherd (smaller breeds would be OK younger, larger breeds like Great Danes the recommendation was 2 years old).  We held out to 10 months.  Not sure he would have lived long enough to get neutered if we had been force to wait longer.  He was such a butt-head.  Most of our biggest issues started fading as soon as he was neutered, and he was a positively nice dog by a month or two afterwards.  Anyway, biggest reason given to wait that long was to prevent joint blow outs later in life.  There were other reasons, but that was one of the bigger ones as I recall.

I see virtually source recommend waiting until after the 1st heat cycle to spay females.  Some say after 2nd heat cycle.  But to spay them somewhere in that region if they aren't intended to be bred.  What are the most common long term problems with spaying before 1st heat, vs after 1st heat?  Su Ba says it's a judgement call.  I'd like that info so I can make a more informed judgement.

Our previous dog, a female German Shepherd/Chow (75/25) we had spayed around 5 months old, so before her first heat.  She later blew out both back knees (one around 6 years old, the other at almost 12), and just before we put her down the vet said one of her front legs was about to blow out too.  She also had blood work at the time that indicated probable cancer, but when everything was combined we chose to euthanize her rather than find out exactly what the problem was, as knowing what type of cancer wouldn't have changed that decision but would have cost a lot of money and prolonged her agony.  Point of that story is that I wonder on some level if we had waited for her 1st heat if she might have avoided the blown out joints, and possibly the cancer too, at least at that age.  Maybe we would have gotten another 6-24 months with her had we waited until after that first heat.  Maybe not, perhaps she would have had to be put down even younger it we had waited to spay.  We'll never know for sure.

Andrew, I’m sorry you had to go through that with your dog. I’m sure it was emotionally painful for you and surely painful for him.

I have been in veterinary medicine at one level or another since I was 15 years older. I’ve seen all sorts of medical problems occurring in both neutered and not neutered pets. Today it is fashionable to blame it upon early neutering. Back in the days when pet’s we’re not neutered, we first blamed the problems on poor bloodlines. Later it was fashionable to blame them on the pet’s diet. Then lifestyle issues became the target of blame. I have confidence in stating that we simply do not know the definitive answers yet.

Su, thanks for your work with animals! I am totally pro neutering and all for rescue animals  in most cases. In Wilson’s case, we have a very well suited LGD (trees bears, but doesn’t hurt even ducklings or aggressive other dogs when subduing them). His progeny could  allow wolves and other predators to reclaim their historic territory while reducing livestock losses by 90+%. Willie does not harass ground nesting creatures, though he will abide no squirrel, helping with reforestation. We also have a good fence around an acre or so of our zone 1-2. He would only have access to an unfenced unfixed female while off leash on walks well away from roads others’ private  property, we go usually  in or on the edge of national forests adjacent to our property. I hate to say the rules don’t apply to me, but Willie certainly has me making exceptions!

My intact girls play breeding games with each other when they cycle, and my neutered male used to as well when I still had him.  It was all playful and friendly and didn't cause any issues or hard feelings.   I've never had intact males AND intact females at the same time, but friends who do board their males off property while their female is in season!   It's that bad.   OH, and although it's less common a neutered male CAN "tie" with a female,  which might cause an injury if they are inexperienced and panic.  But I've never seen it personally.  My dogs never took it that far when a bitch was in season.