Questions about my first dairy goats

Hi!

I am adding two doeling Nubian goats to my homestead. These two have (apparently) been raised and trained to the electric netting rotational grazing routine which is what we plan to do.

The plan is to move them to a new forage spot every week or so (depending on forage) and put them in a stall at night.
There is a TON of goat forage on our property which is why we’ve chosen goats instead of the much desired cow.

My question is, in addition to their forage on our property, what inputs are a must for these goats?

Can goats do well with minimal inputs?

Any advice for this first time goat owner is appreciated!

Hi Tori,
I don't really have any experience with dairy goats (or any goats), but I thought I would comment  while we wait for the goat experts.

Specific to whether they do well with minimal inputs... I would want to be cautious about minimal inputs with any lactating mammal. They are going to produce milk and need extra nutrition to maintain their own health while doing so. With meat animals, I think a minimal inputs would just make them take longer to reach weight. With dairy animals, I worry it would affect the quality of the milk.

I'm not going to call myself a goat expert, but you are grazing them and that is my bailiwick.

You will want to familiarize yourself with FAMACHA. It is an acronym, but I never can remember the words. What it amounts to is checking the underside of the eyelid to see how pale it is which allows you to determine the animals parasite load and determine if it needs wormed. I know, that isn't grazing, but the parasites get picked up while grazing.

As for rotational grazing (and grazing refers to grass and forbs, NOT browse, which I;m guessing you have by the way your post read. It's only a guess, but I've seen the post 'layout' before and there are tale-tale signs in it. LOL! If you are grazing, great. I can speak to browsing as well as grazing. For grazing, the length of the REST period is what is most important. You want the forage to fully recover before grazing it again, generally this is 4 weeks. It can be variable though.

Where are you? That will help me determine what you are grazing, unless you know, or what browse you have.

Mark Reynolds wrote:

Where are you? That will help me determine what you are grazing, unless you know, or what browse you have.

Hi! Thank you for your input! I am in southeast Oklahoma near Ft Smith AR. And yes, I meant “rotational browsing” with the desire to eventually eliminate some things, improve ground with goat excrement and increase grass growth.

I will study that FAMACHA acronym. Thank you!

Matt McSpadden wrote:Hi Tori,
I don't really have any experience with dairy goats (or any goats), but I thought I would comment  while we wait for the goat experts.

Specific to whether they do well with minimal inputs... I would want to be cautious about minimal inputs with any lactating mammal. They are going to produce milk and need extra nutrition to maintain their own health while doing so. With meat animals, I think a minimal inputs would just make them take longer to reach weight. With dairy animals, I worry it would affect the quality of the milk.

Yes, that is a good point. I’m assuming that you are right about that.. once they are pregnant and in milk I will most likely need to add supplements.

Perhaps there’s still this romantic notion of providing for animals and family mostly from the land that isn’t very realistic. 😅

Do you know what your goats will be browsing on, or rather what species of woody plants? A note about the goat excrement. You won't really be adding anything to the land that way. If you give it some thought, realize that the 'fertilizer' that the goats are 'producing', isn't any more than the phosphorus and potassium that is coming from the plants they are eating which is taken up from the soil the goats are adding it to. It's one big cycle, there is nothing being added this way. If the system happens to be deficient in a nutrient, it has to be added from outside the system. The nitrogen is a little different than the phosphorous and the potassium, it ultimately comes from the air for the most part, but gets introduced to the soil to a large degree by the plant itself by the plant, and associated micro organisms, especially in legumes, fixing the nitrogen from the air.

Mark Reynolds wrote:Do you know what your goats will be browsing on, or rather what species of woody plants? A note about the goat excrement. You won't really be adding anything to the land that way. If you give it some thought, realize that the 'fertilizer' that the goats are 'producing', isn't any more than the phosphorus and potassium that is coming from the plants they are eating which is taken up from the soil the goats are adding it to. It's one big cycle, there is nothing being added this way. If the system happens to be deficient in a nutrient, it has to be added from outside the system. The nitrogen is a little different than the phosphorous and the potassium, it ultimately comes from the air for the most part, but gets introduced to the soil to a large degree by the plant itself by the plant, and associated micro organisms, especially in legumes, fixing the nitrogen from the air.

Okay, that makes sense. I was under the impression that the impact of grazing/browsing animals on a piece of land could improve it with good management. If not through the animals waste, I suppose it’s a matter of opinion on what improvement looks like.

I’m not sure of all the specific woody plants but i believe there is small persimmon, blackberry, Chinese bush clover, oak, soapberry, hickory, cedar, elm…. I know there is a bunch of smaller less woody weeds but I’m not sure of all there names.
We would like to experiment with cutting “tree hay” as well for rainy days such as this one.

It’s so hard to locate unsprayed hay but I’ve read that it’s important for them to always have access to fresh hay. Hopefully we can find some.

LOL. You hit the nail on the head about improvement. It largely depends on what the specific objectives are. If they are to reduce brush in order to create more space for grasses to grow and then for cows to graze the grass.....yes. If it is to create nesting habitat that certain songbirds require (thick brush) ..... no.

Hello fellow Okie.  I agree about FAMANCHCA.  They will need something for calories while they're milking and growing.  You can never go wrong with good alfalfa hay.  Goats will eat what goats will eat.  You might put the most luscious supplement in front of them in the milking stanchion and they'll look at you like you've lost your mind.  They'll browse on just about anything.  They love poison ivy which is a plus and doesn't hurt them.  You'll want to remember that they may come in covered in oil and rub it off on you.  I personally think any manure spread naturally is a fine thing.  Make sure you rotate before they compact the soil, depending on how big your enclosure is.  I've kept goats in 3 wires if they're trained to it young,

Judy Bowman wrote:Hello fellow Okie.  I agree about FAMANCHCA.  They will need something for calories while they're milking and growing.  You can never go wrong with good alfalfa hay.  Goats will eat what goats will eat.  You might put the most luscious supplement in front of them in the milking stanchion and they'll look at you like you've lost your mind.  They'll browse on just about anything.  They love poison ivy which is a plus and doesn't hurt them.  You'll want to remember that they may come in covered in oil and rub it off on you.  I personally think any manure spread naturally is a fine thing.  Make sure you rotate before they compact the soil, depending on how big your enclosure is.  I've kept goats in 3 wires if they're trained to it young,

Thanks, Judy for your input! I really appreciate it. I have the babies home now and they are just settling in. They are very cautious and definitely a little nervous about their new surroundings. I assume that’s normal. I got some basic Redmond goat minerals which they have nibbled a bit. I think I may give the Land of Havilah dewormer product a try. I put together some things I had on hand (DE, cinnamon, thyme, oregano, rosemary) on some oats but they don’t seem the least bit interested. No interest in the barley either. Ah well… just see how it goes! Thanks again!

Here are the new additions. I know they are going to teach me so much. Would any goat owners be willing to share what their goats daily diet includes?

I know very little about goats, but I have eaten a few, I mostly like them, however sometimes when they fix you in their sight with those amber eyes, ------- well it kinda sorta squicks me out.  But that isn't why I wrote a reply.

Check out anything written by Leigh Tate, here on Permies or on her blog 5acresandadream.com.  She has been a "keeper: of goats for many years.

Hope this may help.


Peace

I wouldn't cut any 'browse hay' for them on rainy days. They should be fine in the rain/won't mind it. As for the browse itself, when some things start to wilt (have been cut/broken off) the chemical makeup of the browse can change. Specifically, I'm thinking of black cherry, which upon wilting starts to produce cyanide. Leaves directly off the tree/plant don't have the cyanide content so aren't as problematic, but they don't get eaten readily either. On the other hand, once they start to wilt, they turn into some sort of irresistible feast. Oaks probably aren't that great either due to the tannins, but they don't have cyanide. See if you can arrange for an extension agent to visit your place to evaluate what you have. Free choice regular hay can be a good thing.

Also, you said DAIRY. mention this to the agent. Some forages can taint the milk or even make the milk poisonous.

Mark Reynolds wrote:I wouldn't cut any 'browse hay' for them on rainy days. They should be fine in the rain/won't mind it. As for the browse itself, when some things start to wilt (have been cut/broken off) the chemical makeup of the browse can change. Specifically, I'm thinking of black cherry, which upon wilting starts to produce cyanide. Leaves directly off the tree/plant don't have the cyanide content so aren't as problematic, but they don't get eaten readily either. On the other hand, once they start to wilt, they turn into some sort of irresistible feast. Oaks probably aren't that great either due to the tannins, but they don't have cyanide. See if you can arrange for an extension agent to visit your place to evaluate what you have. Free choice regular hay can be a good thing.

Also, you said DAIRY. mention this to the agent. Some forages can taint the milk or even make the milk poisonous.

Hey, thanks Mark.
I will look into the extension office and see what they say. That would be a great help to know more about the forage that’s here.
I do my own research but it’s slow.

Milk Goats are different than milk cows in many ways. A milk goat must have rain shelter or they will die. They naturally live near Rocky crags and shelter under rock overhangs in the Alps. They  cannot eat silage or spoiled hay that is often fed to dairy cattle. Also goats cannot be fed the cheap big agriculture poultry manure the way cattle farmers lately do. Those things will kill goats but not cattle.  If your goats have horns they will get stuck in the net wire fences and die without daily removal. Most dairy farmers get their baby goats horns burned off  with a disbudding iron as soon as the tiny points begin to appear for that reason. Also unlike cattle goats will escape even a very tight 5 strand barb wire fence. The must have sold net wire with good support or they will go to your front yard house and  destroy your ornamental plants, jump on all of your vehicles, sleep on your porch and chew on your electric wires and stuff. They need to be rebred almost every fall to give milk and must be milked twice daily or they will stop making milk. There will be cholestrum the first few days of milking and thats not tasty but the new baby should get it. The milk will become less each day until they stop making milk usually by fall when they are re bred. Their baby is taken away and fed a bottle if you want up to a full quart jar twice a day from your best Milker.
On the other hand , if you don't have a houdini proof fence, you don't raise a garden ,dont care about them jumping on your vehicles or butting in your front door to barge into your living  room at 3AM or debarking all your 20 year old fruit trees to death and like to live as a nomad goats are as loving and loyal as dogs and will stay right with you everywhere you go.  They'll travel miles a day with you and don't need a fence. They love their humans. My best friend owns a goat dairy and I've always kept goats as pets

Not sure how useful this response will be, seeing as I'm so late in responding, but I figured I'd pitch in anyways.
My first question would be where are you located? Your location, and the climate there, impacts a lot of those questions. If you get pretty cold in the winter, you'll either need a well build shelter (not heated, just secure and highly wind resistant), or more goats. You should definitely have some sort of shelter, and the more well built the better, but the more goats you have the less you need to worry about them in the cold. Goats stay warm by piling together much like penguins do, and so the more you have the warmer they will be.
As far as inputs go, I would give them a salt and mineral block, but I wouldn't give them much else until they're being milked. Obviously you should give them hay during the winter when they can't forage. Once they're being milked, a lot depends on how MUCH milk you want. We're moving more towards a cross now, since Nubians don't handle the extreme cold here very well, but I do have several years of experience with Nubians, as well as Spanish and Nigerians. If you want lots and lots of milk, feed them alfalfa and give them lots of treats during milking. If you'd rather not supplement heavily, then you won't get as much. I prefer sturdier animals and low inputs to super high production (personal preference, I won't blame you if you choose something different). Because of that, I only feed them grain/alfalfa during milking time. They only get as much as they can eat while on the stand. I'll supplement them with some alfalfa during the end of their gestation when we're coming out of winter, but other then that they only get hay when they're in the barn, and pasture when they're out with the rest of the flock. My neighbor, on the other hand, only feeds them alfalfa. No hay. Her Nigerians and mine produce WAY different amounts. High input means high output, lower input means lower output.

Elena Sparks wrote:Not sure how useful this response will be, seeing as I'm so late in responding, but I figured I'd pitch in anyways.
My first question would be where are you located? Your location, and the climate there, impacts a lot of those questions. If you get pretty cold in the winter, you'll either need a well build shelter (not heated, just secure and highly wind resistant), or more goats. You should definitely have some sort of shelter, and the more well built the better, but the more goats you have the less you need to worry about them in the cold. Goats stay warm by piling together much like penguins do, and so the more you have the warmer they will be.
As far as inputs go, I would give them a salt and mineral block, but I wouldn't give them much else until they're being milked. Obviously you should give them hay during the winter when they can't forage. Once they're being milked, a lot depends on how MUCH milk you want. We're moving more towards a cross now, since Nubians don't handle the extreme cold here very well, but I do have several years of experience with Nubians, as well as Spanish and Nigerians. If you want lots and lots of milk, feed them alfalfa and give them lots of treats during milking. If you'd rather not supplement heavily, then you won't get as much. I prefer sturdier animals and low inputs to super high production (personal preference, I won't blame you if you choose something different). Because of that, I only feed them grain/alfalfa during milking time. They only get as much as they can eat while on the stand. I'll supplement them with some alfalfa during the end of their gestation when we're coming out of winter, but other then that they only get hay when they're in the barn, and pasture when they're out with the rest of the flock. My neighbor, on the other hand, only feeds them alfalfa. No hay. Her Nigerians and mine produce WAY different amounts. High input means high output, lower input means lower output.

Elena, thank you so much for your response. You have touched on things that I have been questioning recently. Firstly, I do have a decent shelter for them but I think I will go ahead and shore up the open side once it starts getting chilly.
We’re in southern Oklahoma so it’s barely become fall now.
I am definitely on the side of low input, stalwart and economical animals versus loads of milk. That may change at some point but I’d love to breed the Nubians with a meat breed (Boar) and then select offspring for those traits.
The goats have been doing a pretty good job clearing paddocks and staying in their electric netting surprisingly well. I will say it requires intentionally and more work managing in this rotational manner but I am really pleased with the results already.
I think the hard part is learning to determine if they’re ready to move or if they are being picky. I’ve noticed that they know when something really tasty is in the offing and then refuse to eat the less desirable things. With that in mind, I have allowed them to stay in paddocks longer than before and made them smaller.
I’m getting nervous about winter though because it’s like they will not touch any hay I put in their stall. I’ve tried three different times from local farmers. Any thoughts on hay for the winter?
I check their FAMACHA score every so often and they are looking very good.
When I got them one of the goats under lid was like white. Now it’s very pink so I’m pleased about that. I haven’t wormed them yet but I have some herbal wormer on hand from Mollys herbs.
One of the girls doesn’t like to be touched which concerns me, should I force her to get used to it?

Thanks again for your input! So helpful!!

Tori, your babies are beautiful.  I think come winter they’ll eat their hay.  The babies definitely have full tummies and look healthy.  I house mine in a south-facing 3 sided shed and they do fine in an Oklahoma winter.  

Tori Escobar wrote: Elena, thank you so much for your response. You have touched on things that I have been questioning recently. Firstly, I do have a decent shelter for them but I think I will go ahead and shore up the open side once it starts getting chilly.
We’re in southern Oklahoma so it’s barely become fall now.
I am definitely on the side of low input, stalwart and economical animals versus loads of milk. That may change at some point but I’d love to breed the Nubians with a meat breed (Boar) and then select offspring for those traits.
The goats have been doing a pretty good job clearing paddocks and staying in their electric netting surprisingly well. I will say it requires intentionally and more work managing in this rotational manner but I am really pleased with the results already.
I think the hard part is learning to determine if they’re ready to move or if they are being picky. I’ve noticed that they know when something really tasty is in the offing and then refuse to eat the less desirable things. With that in mind, I have allowed them to stay in paddocks longer than before and made them smaller.
I’m getting nervous about winter though because it’s like they will not touch any hay I put in their stall. I’ve tried three different times from local farmers. Any thoughts on hay for the winter?
I check their FAMACHA score every so often and they are looking very good.
When I got them one of the goats under lid was like white. Now it’s very pink so I’m pleased about that. I haven’t wormed them yet but I have some herbal wormer on hand from Mollys herbs.
One of the girls doesn’t like to be touched which concerns me, should I force her to get used to it?

Thanks again for your input! So helpful!!

You're welcome! I'm glad I could help out.
As far as crossing them, that's what we're doing (as I mentioned), and I've really liked the results so far. The only thing I would say is to look at all the options before settling on Boars. I've never raised them, but I've heard that they can have some foot problems. We went with Spanish as the winter hardy part of the cross, and the nice thing about them is that they bring a very nice, thick coat, but are also pretty nice dairy animals. Good luck with your cross, let me know how it goes!
Rotational grazing definitely takes more work, but the results, as you said, are way better! Gauging when they're done is definitely the fine tuning part that takes a while to get the hang of. The general rule (which you probably already know) is eat a third, leave a third, and trample a third. Sometimes that means that the pasture looks like it has quite a bit left, and you're tempted to leave them on longer then you should. Ideally, they should never stay in one place for more then a week, so I'd size their paddocks so that they are done with the respective 1/3rds within that amount of time. It sounds like you're doing a pretty good job of working towards that, so good job!
For hay, I'd wait to give them any until they actually need it. If you were given the option of a fresh pancake or a two-week old pancake to have with your breakfast, I'm pretty sure you'd pick the fresh one. The same is true of the goats. The hay isn't tasty to them until it has more nutrients then the living pasture. So if they're on lush and green pasture, they won't eat the hay. If it's bad hay then that's its own problem, but I wouldn't evaluate your hay on whether or not they're eating it right now when they don't want it anyways.
We use herbal dewormers as well (ours are from Land of Havilah) and have had pretty good success. What I'd suggest is to make sure you're sticking to a routine with it. Herbal dewormers are more for preventative care then emergency dosing, so use it regularly. I'm glad her eye is getting better! Whatever you're doing is working, so that's great!
When we get new animals, we lock them in a jug (small pen) for a week or two so that we can work closely with them multiple times a day. Give them treats by hand, spend time with them, and let them know that you're a good thing to hang out with. Once they're coming up to you consistently and easily, let them out in a bigger pen. Remember, though, that each animal is different. Give them the same treatment and some will be lap dogs within a week, and others will just come up for treats. It's ok for them to be different.  Mostly you just want them to not be afraid of you.

I've been raising goats for 5yrs, and can almost promise, those goats will eat the hay, when their preferred browse is gone. We've had Nubians, Boer, and Nigora - only Nigoras, now. Loose minerals is a better choice for goats, because their tongue are not rough, like a cow's, and if they need more than they can get with their smooth tongue, they'll possibly end up with blisters on their tongues, and still not get all the minerals they need. I give herbs, for parasite treatment, and at the stanchion, alfalfa pellets for pregnant & lactating does. Alfalfa is higher in protein than is beneficial for them, on a regular basis, when using it as their main source, so if that's the hay, I'd cut it heavily with Timothy &/or field hay.

Nubians were not hardy enough for our very harsh land (central Missouri Ozarks - heavy clay & rocks, leading to lots of puddles, and a higher parasite population), but the Nigoras (dairy/fiber breed) are doing beautifully, here. And, I have been told that Kiko are hardier than Boer, and from what I understand, they're friendlier. They're slightly smaller than Boer, too, which will make their offspring a bit easier for the Nubians to kid.

Goats hate getting wet, and it can, especially combined with wind &/or cold, weaken them, rapidly. Supplementing the pregnant & lactating goats separately from the bucks is wise, because while those does need all of the minerals, the extra calcium, copper, and iron they need can cause a serious zinc deficiency, in the bucks. So, a way to separate them is crucial - and I try hard to keep my bucks a football field distance from my does, beginning about a month before kidding, so the milk doesn't taste 'bucky'.

I have 3 constant paddocks - one for the bucks & sheep, one for the does, and a smaller one that gets dubbed "the playpen", the "honeymoon suite", "jail", or occasionally, "the hospital", depending on its use, at the moment. With only 9 goats & 2 sheep, I'm not always sure that's enough paddocks. I also have lots of pasture space for browse(though I have to move them a lot, to access it all), outside the paddocks. The boys are on pasture as soon as it has enough growth to support them, in the Spring, and stay there, as long as there's any growing.

I'd strongly recommend getting/ building a stanchion, for milking, health checks, and grooming. It will be an incredible back saver, for you. I built mine out of an ammunitions supply pallet, that I got for free, and a few 2x4s.

As far as horns, 4H and some other goat shows require disbudding, but none of the goat farmers I know disbud, unless they're showing them. I won't have horns goats, because our predator pressure is pretty high, and those horns are their only defense, if a predator gets close. Goats can move fast, but they're sprinters, not distance runners, and they wouldn't stand a chance in a race against most of our predators. That said, they do have the potential to cause injury, to the unwary. If you have our get goats with horns, it's unwise to play with them or direct them, with their horns, because it encourages them to use their horns with you, which can cause injury. But, like anything with animals, remembering that they are animals (and even the sweetest critters can be unpredictable) will go a long way toward keeping everyone safe, happy, and healthy.