Wife’s not sleeping. We need help!

Anne Miller wrote:

That might have something to do with her sleep interruptions.

One year I took a group of girls to drill team camp and slept on the couch.  I fell asleep watching TV every night and from then on I had to watch TV before bed in order to fall asleep.  I have fallen asleep to many Law and Order episodes over the years.

Dietrick Klooster wrote:
As someone who has wasted a massive amount of time and energy trying to be "efficient" at convincing my partner what she needs to do, hurting her and our relationship in the process, I can tell you that the practice described by John Wineland can be extremely helpful, no matter how contrived it might feel at first. I feel the same way as you do about the video with the nail, but also see that putting empathy first can actually make things happen in a much more efficient way. I don't think you need to "ignore the nail" at all, but what can help is realizing that someone needs to trust you before they are willing to hear what you have to say, let alone pull a nail out their head. Feeling heard and understood through practicing empathy is the most effective way to build that trust.

Michael Littlejohn wrote:Sorry to hear all of this. I have chronic pain as well. How about Ibuprofin for inflamation, yoga at least a half hour daily whatever she can do. Check blood pressure it would be good to know if high pressure is the root cause. Valerian should only be used as a minor suppliment, hawthorne berry extract is better...hawthorn to valerian   9/1.  electro stimulators can be had for about $30.00 on amazon. Go easy with those, a pulse massage twice daily not more than 20 minutes.  How about investing in a small pool load it up with salt and make a solar heater for it, try some flotation 0 gravity.  How about making an inversion table?  Sounds like depression is in the mix.  The first step is awareness. She should be reading something on the connection between chronic pain and depression. Join an online board, there is nothing like support from other other people who understand you on the deepest level.

I am not medically trained btw, so take what I say with a grain of salt, I have just been struggling with increasing pain from arthritis.

Hope something in there is helpful.

Best..M

Marie Abell wrote:
--laugh together. Find a funny movie or even just read the jokes thread here on permies--laughing is truly good medicine and I have seen it help with everything from stomach problems to depression.


Those are my thoughts! I wish all the best for you and your wife.

Brody Ekberg wrote:but I’m skeptical because of the tvs bright lights. Maybe if we swapped comedies out for reading jokes or listening to something funny, that would work better for her.

Brody Ekberg wrote:

Marie Abell wrote:
--laugh together. Find a funny movie or even just read the jokes thread here on permies--laughing is truly good medicine and I have seen it help with everything from stomach problems to depression.


Those are my thoughts! I wish all the best for you and your wife.

Also, we have been watching New Girl and The Good Place before bed. Both are comedies and we both enjoy them, but I’m skeptical because of the tvs bright lights. Maybe if we swapped comedies out for reading jokes or listening to something funny, that would work better for her.

Lorinne Anderson wrote:I write this AS a wife, a chronic insomniac with chronic pain AND a husband who is constantly making suggestions, on how to deal with my conditions, who does not understand how frustratingly aggravating this can be, especially when one is feeling fragile.

If the wife is anything like me we are not "broken" and do not want or need our spouse to "fix" us. We need their support, caring and understanding.  Being repeatedly told to do this or try this, sadly is not helpful. Even if the advice is spot on, we cannot hear it, from you, our beloved spouse.

Firstly the pain needs dealing with; to that end I have weekly massage followed immediately (in the same clinic) by chiro adjustment. There used to be weekly acupuncture two days after massage/chiro that was very helpful, but no longer needed.

So please, do not refuse all pharmaceuticals, just because some may not work or have side effects. Give everything a chance, and move on if the side effects are intolerable, to what else may be an option. I would be clear what sort of sleep aid the mother is essentially addicted to and make sure the doc knows as addictive behavior IS often genetic.  

My hope now is this new doc will consider sending me to a sleep lab, where you get wired up with electrodes and they monitor you for several nights to determine when and if certain stages (REM etc.) are reached and for how long they are maintained to understand the nature of the insomnia. They can then diagnose what the sleep issue is and the best course of treatment (meds, behavioral etc.) to combat it.

Is depression a component of insomnia, sure to a greater or lesser extent, as is chronic pain. I find dwelling on either condition WILL make depression a MUCH bigger issue. I am grateful that I am a naturally optimistic and happy person, but on bad days, sometimes even that is just not enough, and I need a while to wallow. If someone were a naturally pessimistic person, I can only imagine how tough every day could be.

Am I super cranky at times, you betcha! IF my husband stopped asking me how I am every morning and several times a day, I would be WAY less irritated. IF he stopped trying to FIX me, or TELL me what to do to solve MY issues, again, I would be a much more congenial person. Honestly, even if he could just leave me be for the first hour of "my day" (which usually starts around noon), I would be a much nicer person.

I get it, it is very hard for him to see me suffer, and I hate it when that last nerve snapping causes me to bark at him; but there are times I am so barely holding things together that his attempts to fix me frankly make me want to bash him on the head with a frying pan - straight out of the old time movies!!!

If my husband simply asked me WHAT or HOW he could help me, today, that would be fabulous! Sometimes I just need to vent (whine, complain, bitch) and all I am seeking is an open ear and a hug - NOT a solution.

I do apologize if some of what I have said seems harsh. As I said, I speak as a fellow sufferer, with a wonderful husband, who is ALWAYS ready with a surefire cure and/or treatment. I need him to understand, I need his comfort or to ASK how he can help, NOT fix me, or tell me what I should do.

PS: To be clear, my only way of emphasizing a point with my ancient BlackBerry is to use caps or quotations as I have no access to underline, bold or any other "features". I am not "yelling" as I have recently been accused of, and apologize if my use of "caps" was found offensive, it is NOT my intent.

Tereza Okava wrote:@Brody: you mentioned a TENS unit.
I used to be an athlete (before I became a professional slouch! LOL) and as such racked up a lot of injuries as a young woman. Several times (jacked up knees and ankles) I remember having TENS (electrical stimulation) and thinking "wow, what a waste of time".
Now I am an old lady with arthritis in my hands and I'm doing physical therapy, my therapist trotted out the TENS unit and I said, hey, I remember doing that and it not doing diddle squat. She laughed and said many people don't know how to apply it or don't want to push it to the level it needs to be at to be effective in terms of relieving pain - it needs to go up to the point juuuust before it's uncomfortable (for me, it is the point just before my fingers start to spasm, it feels like I stuck my finger in a light socket, most unpleasant). However, it only deadens the pain for a bit, it doesn't solve the problem.* If you do get to visit a PT or similar, you might want to ask if they would give a lesson.



(for me, it meant no pain for the entire afternoon afterward, which is pretty remarkable, but I only do in-clinic PT once a week for an hour and want to focus on learning exercises, so it's not really worth my time. your mileage may vary!)

Lorinne Anderson wrote:For me, although I fought it tooth and nail, the biggest win with pain control was in Gabapentin - initially left overs prescribed for the dog taken in desperation during a particularly bad spell that ended up with me in emerg begging for ANYTHING - this included lidocaine injections into the nerve, which sadly failed.  The doc agreed the gabapentin was appropriate BUT that it would take several days to kick in; and several weeks before my body fully adjusted to it (no longer feeling "stoned"). IT WORKED! Supposedly it is also great for sleeping, alas, not for me.

I then tried multiple times to "wean" myself off, within days I was back in pain hell. So I have accepted that to deal with my back pain I am on this stuff for good, three times a day.  It is NOT addictive, has significantly helped with the frequency and severity of my migraines, and the loopy/dopey part does not last long. It is CHEAP, and likely WAY less harmful than the fistfulls of OTC ibuprofen I was living on that barely took the edge off.

It kills me to take meds 3X a day, I get it. But worse is to live at a constant pain level of 6-8 which apparently for others would be more like 10-15 out of ten (based on my migraines and my response to gall bladder issues that remained undiagnosed for years until it shut my liver down and required emerg surgical removal - interestingly diagnosed by my massage AND chiro therapists!). I have an extraordinarily HIGH pain tolerance, so the fact that the gabapentin actually works is literally a miracle for me.

Heather Sharpe wrote:

Brody Ekberg wrote:If what she really wants is to be heard and comforted, then dont make it about pain. The husband can focus on listening and comforting and not worry about the obvious source of pain. If she wants to get rid of the pain, then dont make it emotional. The husband can help her with the nail and the pain will be gone. But if the issue at hand is physical pain, all the listening and comforting in the world wont remove that nail. And if the issue is emotional, pulling that nail out wont change a thing.

So, I can see that in the heat of the moment, when she’s struggling and emotional, the husband just needs to suppress the desire to help his wife and just be there for her. But once shes in an open and receptive state of mind, maybe due to being heard and comforted, she ought to remove the nail.

So, in my actual situation this would translate to: when my wife is crying and saying she just wants to die and is so exhausted, that I need to listen to her and comfort her. If/when that helps, she may then be open to receiving advice about how to actually change the situation for the better. If not from me then from someone else, maybe a professional.

Am I totally missing it or am I building that bridge??  

Lorinne Anderson wrote:Brody: no offense taken whatsoever.

Generally speaking I find men tend to see things in black and white; if it is broken, you fix it; and even if it is not YOUR car, you will diagnose and tell your neighbor how to fix it, even if they don't ASK for help.

Women, in my experience see more shades of gray...we understand there is a problem, but we don't necessarily immediately jump to "the solution" to fix it, we ponder all the options, study them, rate them on a dozen different scales as to "cost vs benefit" (time, emotion, money...), and at times can "investigate" into paralysis!  Women tend to take more of an overview, and then look at the entire picture, choosing what to prioritize (which is rarely ourselves), first.

Neither way is right or wrong; in some instances the male tendency to focus to exclusion is vitally important. Just as the female way of taking the overview and prioritising may be more ideal in some circumstances. I suspect this is genetic and goes back to the caveman days: hunters, more commonly men, had to be focused and task oriented. Whereas the gatherers and those that tended the "home" HAD to be able to multitask and prioritize the needs of the clan/family ahead of their own needs, even to their personal detriment.

Sometimes the issue is as simple as truly "coming out" as to the level of pain and distress to others (friends, co-workers, Medical professionals); this requires admitting to oneself (on one level or another) that you truly are NOT okay, something that can be devastating emotionally to admit. Sounds silly, I know; it is like someone with a "lump" who will not see a doc because they are afraid it is Cancer. There is a twisted comfort in ignorance; there is also a terrible fear that once that truth comes out you will discover there is NOTHING that can be done. For me, it was a comfort knowing that if it "got bad enough" I could "confess my distress" and they would make it better; but I would not play that card due to fear they MIGHT not help and I would know for sure that this was my destiny, forever.

This obviously plays into the depression, fear that this will never change and that even IF you finally admit you need help, that the last candle of hope could be snuffed out, and you could be told there is nothing that can be done.

I get that intellectually this makes no sense whatsoever - but emotions are not necessarily logical and can override common sense. Currently, I suspect YOU are in great distress yourself as it is so challenging seeing your wife suffer. Perhaps your quest to help and constant suggestions are more about your feeling of being unable to fix things and give your wife a higher quality of life. By this I mean you have the NEED to fix her, and when your suggestions, made out of love and caring, are not well received, you feel you are failing your love. I apologize if I am making inappropriate assumptions, I just wonder if the fact that your need to SOLVE these issues, and being/feeling ignored or attacked is causing you to feel ​un​empowered...driving you to try harder and harder, yet still getting rebuffed and rebuffed - how incredibly frustrating!!!

If I could suggest, simply ask, gently, "how can I help" in the moment, for the next hour, dial it back to the "small" picture. You may help best at this time, by ignoring the larger picture, and deal in the moment.

Let her guide you in HOW you can be helpful, instead of showering her with suggestions because the sad reality is, you probably cannot fix her and stop her distress.

There is an oft used proverb: You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make them drink...all you can do is support and encourage, sometimes. This can be a VERY difficult, near impossible (at times) road to travel without feeling sad, angry, impotent, frustrated then guilty, all at the same time. You feel as though your efforts are at best unappreciated, and at worst, viewed with hostility or disdain. Perhaps keep your research to yourself, for now. When she is ready and ASKS for specific assistance, you will be ready to roll!

Hugs to you and your wife.

(edited to correct typing/spelling errors)

Heather Sharpe wrote:
I think as far as your application to your situation, you're getting it. Empathy first. I'd probably err on the side of offering advice only if it's asked for, at least for now. If there's something that seems super important, maybe after empathizing, you could say something along the lines of, "I have an idea that might help, would you like to hear it?" Be willing to drop it if she says no.

It must be so hard and painful for you to see your wife hurting that much and I totally understand wanting to do anything to help that stop. It must feel really frustrating that she seemingly won't accept your help. I commend you for considering that what seems like helping to you isn't necessarily what feels helpful or will work best for her and trying a new approach. You're absolutely right that when she's struggling, the best thing you can do is listen, offer empathy and comfort. She must really trust you if she's sharing such vulnerable feelings. Treating that like the honor it is by showing you hear and understand can only help.
If you haven't already, it might help to ask her when she isn't in that level of despair about what would feel most comforting or helpful to her in those moments. Maybe even write down what she shares. It's possible when she's in that much despair, she may not know or be able to articulate what would help comfort her. Or she may feel like there's nothing that possibly could. It's still good to ask how you can comfort or help her in the moment, but having a plan in case she doesn't know or can't tell you can be so helpful for both of you. I know it's made a huge difference for my partner and I.

As far as the nail video, I would invite you to consider that it isn't either/or with the pain and the feelings about it. They're connected, so she can't make it about one or the other. In sharing her feelings about her pain, she is making a bid for connection with her husband. When he tries to fix instead of empathize, she feels unheard and not understood, thereby causing additional pain, which probably makes her try harder to be understood and heard. I know it can seem super confusing, but she isn't switching the complaint and the issues aren't separate. I hope that makes sense. Lorinne explained this far better than me.
I would really recommend checking out that John Wineland video I linked in my earlier post and him in general. Super crazy helpful for relationship stuff. He's really good at bridging the gap between how men and women communicate and framing things in a way that both can hear what the other needs.

Big hugs to you both. I hope things get better for y'all soon!

jason holdstock wrote:My wife has neck issues, with head, neck and back pain that can reduce her to tears for hours, day after day. I struggle with empathy and try to fix it.

We've had a waterbed for maybe 17 years. It doesn't wear out, adding more water makes it firmer, you can make it cool or warm with the low voltage heater under the mattress, so for aches or night sweats it can help one way or the other.

Vitamin D3 at about 4000 units a day (plus K2) makes us sleep better. I may get some St Johns Wort after this thread.

Massage. She has one of those plug in things with two rotating balls you put behind your neck while in an arm chair which works to some extent. One of those gun like pounders is too much and bruises in the neck area. A general back and neck rub with oil releases a lot of tension she didn't know was there (but sometimes the tension release can produce a pounding headache for a few hours, but is better after), plus a half hour just before bed lets her fall straight asleep and prevents screen time. Kills my thumbs though, but is me helping without my amazing preachy wisdom.

Just shut up and listen seems to be required a lot though.

Best of luck :)

Eric Hanson wrote:Hi Brody,

I have been watching this thread for some time, wanting to respond but avoiding because it is so personal for me.  I really do feel for you and your wife.  I have suffered with insomnia for over 15 years, more than 10 of those years were absolutely uncontrolled.  By that I mean I would lay awake for days, as in 3-4 straight days awake.  I was miserable and barely functional at work—in fact my work really suffered.

I am certainly no doctor so please understand that in no way am I giving medical advice, but I will relate personal experience, including what worked and what did not work.  But first off,  I don’t think it is accurate to say that sleeping medication is highly addictive (though some people can get addicted to almost anything) as much as it simply does not work after using it for some time.  This varies by the medication.

I will echo what Nick said about recommending Trazadone as it is a addiction  resistant sleeping medication.  Actually it is an older anti-depressant rarely used for depression because of sedation but still used as a sleeping medication, specifically because of the sedative qualities.  I will warn you now, the first dose was AWFUL!  I slept, but woke feeling worse than if I just laid awake all night.  Three days was all I could manage because it made me feel so terrible.  Years went by and an unused prescription just sat in my medicine cabinet before I got desperate enough to try it again.  Turns out that I needed to use it for about a week to overcome the awful side effects, but those side effects do pass.  I have known a number of other people who have had the same prescription but never got past the first week.  After that first week though, it does help treat depression and actually helps relieve general stress (don’t worry, you don’t just zone out).  I also use another sedative at night (totally legal and doctor prescribed) to make me fall asleep at night.

But there was another dimension to my insomnia.  I had a very insightful doctor who recognized that while I was taking sedatives, I was never really waking up.  His recommendation was a specific “wake-up” medication to be taken early in the morning.  Turns out I was never waking up and that made it hard to fall asleep.  I was stuck somewhere between sleeping and waking.

Now I wake up early, stay awake all day and as my wake-up medication wears off I get tired in the evening, take my sleep medication and fall asleep.  I finally have control over my insomnia after years of laying awake at night.

Brody, these steps worked for me. Maybe they will work for your wife but she has to make that decision.  I really do feel for the both of you.  I had to go through multiple doctors before I got one that would treat me adequately but now I stick to my regimen religiously.  I really hope your wife can get some relief.

Best of luck,

Eric

Brody Ekberg wrote:  I think a lot of people are sleepwalking through life, sometimes physically and metaphorically!

Eric Hanson wrote:Brody,

Actually it was a very observant doctor who listened to my symptoms and understood what was going on.  He drew a little clock and a chart and demonstrated that my circadian rhythms never dropped off to sleep at night and this never had the opportunity to peak the next day.  Without that peak I could not *fall* asleep fast enough to break the threshold of sleep.  I hovered at just above sleep but really neither awake nor asleep.

I know that my solution is not typically Permie, but I certainly recognize the problem and these did really help me.  Really, addressing the wakeful side really helped out.

Good luck!

Eric

Opal-Lia Palmer wrote:At first the pillow will make your neck feel worse before it gets better. But It does get better.
Good luck. <3

We’ve totally experienced the whole “it gets worse before it gets better thing before. I think thats one of the things that can be a major setback for recovering for some people.

Katie Suttles wrote:You might check into sleep apnea.  I spent about 15 years getting progressively worse at sleeping.  Finally my therapist suggested a sleep study and I have severe obstructive sleep apnea.  So a CPAP machine was a lifesaver.  I sleep much better now.  It does take a while to get used to if that is the problem but it's worth it.  
Does she snore or have you noticed her stop breathing from time to time when sleeping?  If you stop breathing, your body eventually will wake you up to get you breathing again.

Just a thought.

Cris Fellows wrote: For you adding adaptogens to your life would be helpful.  There are many with nuanced differences.  But mostly to be an adaptogen you must do no harm and help nudge the body out of its position of stressed fight or flight or apathy.  The mushrooms Lions Mane, Reishi or Chaga fit nicely as well as herbs like Ashwaghanda, Eleuthero, Tulsi, Schisandra and Ginseng.  We are working on a sleep formula and have not poured it off nor tried it yet...but I think it is going to be epic.  Here are the ingredients: Catnip, California poppy, milky oats, chamomile, peppermint, licorice.  Gentle enough for children without the grogginess of Valerian, helps with pain, stress and exhaustion.  I hope you find the help you both need.  All love.