Carbs vs. fats

Jan White wrote:The real question I'm curious about is has anyone [...] actually tried a high carb/LOW FAT diet

Isn't that the standard approach to losing weight in USDA-America. Eat lots of grains and reduce fat to loose weight?

My reading of the nutritional studies leads me to believe that a person's weight is most directly correlated with how many carbohydrates they eat...

I eat whole foods hclf vegan diet. 80% carbs, 10% fats, 10% protein. This is considered a well planned vegan diet good fo weight loss, reversal of heart disease and type 2 diabetes. This is the diet advocated by the American college of cardiology and Caldwell essylstyn. Most vegan body builders go to about 20% protein... Since changing to this lifestyle I have found my energy abundant and making pr's in all my lifting. Really its been the biggest game changer for my health and fitness

Lucy Gabzdyl wrote:
Yes, Jan both my partner and I have tried high carb low fat diets on a number of occasions and we both put on weight very quickly, especially if we eat bread (potatoes are also a problem for my partner). We both also put on weight if we eat too much fruit. As I explained in a previous post the 'O' blood group diet suits us very well (it was what I had worked out before I even read about it). so when I read about it, it was just confirmation of what I already knew. Both our parents were passionate about proper nutrition a passion that we both inherited and continued with. We have 2 generation of research and experimentation with our bodies. We are not just following any particular fad diet, but have given our diets a great deal of thought. We are very open to the idea that your ideal diet may well be vegan, but it doesn't suit us.

Hi Lucy, I didn't mean to start a discussion about vegan/non vegan. I'm interested in fat content. Do you know what percentage of your calories was coming from fat on your low fat diet?

Joseph Lofthouse wrote:

Jan White wrote:The real question I'm curious about is has anyone [...] actually tried a high carb/LOW FAT diet

Isn't that the standard approach to losing weight in USDA-America. Eat lots of grains and reduce fat to loose weight?

My reading of the nutritional studies leads me to believe that a person's weight is most directly correlated with how many carbohydrates they eat...

I know that this is what people think they're doing, but as I tried to touch on in a previous post where I mentioned getting 7% calories from fat just from fruit and veg, it seems like most people don't realise how much fat they're actually eating. They think they're eating low fat, but aren't necessarily. So I'm interested in the experiences of people who have kept track and compared low fat and high fat.

Jan White wrote:[

Hi Lucy, I didn't mean to start a discussion about vegan/non vegan. I'm interested in fat content. Do you know what percentage of your calories was coming from fat on your low fat diet?[/quote

Hi Jan sorry I can't be specific but we have never counted calories as we don't think they are relevant to following a healthy diet, we just listen to what our bodies are telling us and the feedback our bodies give us from eating different foods. What I would say is that we use either lard, olive oil or butter liberally in every meal. When I make soup for example each bowl contains about a tablespoon of lard. And while we eat a lot of fat we don't eat a lot of sugar as we don't eat processed foods, and very rarely eat deserts, just the occasional spoonful of jam.

I think it's pretty well established that the high mortality rate up to about 5, but especially the first year is the primary reason that people in old times had a low average lifespan.

That said, the human body is one of the most adaptable in nature. We can run on lots of fuels (I agree that some are better), but what we can't do is eat incredibly rich food and then do nothing. The real problem nowadays is that most of us spend way too much setting on our rear ends at work, at home, at recreation. Our bodies adapt, we develop powerful muscles that let us set for long periods of time without tiring.

One of the things I think is interesting is how much longer the women lived in my family a few generations back compared to the men. The men usually made it into their 70's. The women made it to their 90's or over 100. I asked my grandma about it one time. She had gone through 5 husbands (buried 4, divorced 1) and was one of the more contrary and independant people I've met. She told me she was always grateful she was born a woman because while she and her sisters and mom worked hard all day long, she said it was nothing to what her dad and brothers had to do. She said she felt sorry for how hard they had to work every day. She thought the reason the men died younger was they basically worked themselves to death. Also I would add there's the "hold my beer and watch this" effect on male lifespans. Men, particularly young men are prone to doing stupid things, particularly if there are young women in the area.

There's a balance in all things. Most americans are physically far too sedentary these days. A few generations ago I think they had to work way too hard. That is one of the things I like about permaculture. There is hard work in the system, but once it's up and running it looks to be consistant work, but not destroying your body. Moderation in all things.

Two final observations about the foods we eat. There's a big difference between wild meat (or maybe grass fed) and a beast that has been maxed out on antibiotics because it spends the last 3 months of it's life standing in a small pen, fetlock deep in wet manure and stuffing itself on high energy food that it's system wasn't really designed to handle in those quantities. The other item about evolution is that they think that the gene that allows (mostly) people of northern european descent to digest cows milk as adults is only about 5 thousand years old, but it has worked through about 90% of that population. sometimes evolution can work pretty fast.

On trusting things that science tells us, I would refer you to http://archaeology.org/news/3448-south-africa-paleolithic-milk-based-paint. These experts claim to have found a milk based paint 49,000 years old. Then they suggest this must have been collected by someone who captured a wild, lactating bovid and milked it so they could use it for paint. Obviously they experts are idiots or afraid to suggest that our ideas of the past are wrong and that 49,000 years ago someone was herding cattle, or maybe their date is way off, or, (I think this is unlikely, because mothers milk is probably too valuable to waste on paint) it was human milk. Those are all way more likely than some hunter-gatherer milking an angry cape buffalo for the milk to make paint (I can visualize a true 'hold my beer and watch this" moment). The 'scientific facts' should be examined carefully, but bear in mind that the 'proven science' changes periodically and is as subject to politics,fads and personalities as any other human endeavor.

Andrew Brock wrote:I eat whole foods hclf vegan diet. 80% carbs, 10% fats, 10% protein. This is considered a well planned vegan diet good fo weight loss, reversal of heart disease and type 2 diabetes. This is the diet advocated by the American college of cardiology and Caldwell essylstyn. Most vegan body builders go to about 20% protein... Since changing to this lifestyle I have found my energy abundant and making pr's in all my lifting. Really its been the biggest game changer for my health and fitness

Thanks, Andrew. It's great when people have quantitative data. Have you ever eaten a hflc diet to compare or just the standard western diet of moderate to high fat and carbs?

Lucy Gabzdyl wrote:

Hi Jan sorry I can't be specific but we have never counted calories as we don't think they are relevant to following a healthy diet,

I agree. However, I do find that tracking meals comes in handy for people when they're troubleshooting their diets, more for nutrient tracking than calorie tracking. If there were a couple months where a person was feeling great and then it started to go downhill, they can look back and see they were consistently getting 50% more of x or an ideal ratio of certain minerals. That can be a very powerful tool.

Lucy Gabzyl wrote: I would say is that we use either lard, olive oil or butter liberally in every meal. When I make soup for example each bowl contains about a tablespoon of lard. And while we eat a lot of fat we don't eat a lot of sugar as we don't eat processed foods, and very rarely eat deserts, just the occasional spoonful of jam.

So then when you say you were eating a low fat diet in the past, were you still eating refined fats and oils, just in smaller quantities, or had you cut it out altogether?

I'm sorry if it seems like i'm prying; I just don't often find people who have tried both diets, and I find their experiences very interesting.

I just read an interesting little article. http://www.archaeology.org/news/4202-160222-humans-food-web

Talking about wildlife, the researchers said the Aleuts over about 7,000 years targeted about a quarter of all the species in the area. That is way more than any other predator.

The reason I mention it is it illustrates a permaculture principal, Variety! When one species wasn't available for whatever reason, they just switched to an alternative food source that was productive at the moment, taking pressure of the scarce species. Same applies to plants.

Moving to another line of thought about the carbs vs fats debate.
Looking at the gut length and size of herbivores and carnivores we find the herbivores have longer guts that are designed to handle lots of relatively low value foods (look at gorilla belly vs an in-shape humans. The gorillas big belly isn't there because he's out of shape or he's been drinking too many brewskies, but because the gorilla needs that much gut to properly process the low nutrient density roughage that forms a lot of his diet. Our gut length is not adequate for a pure high roughage vegetarian diet, or at least an uncooked vegetarian diet (fruits and nuts digest easier, needing less gut). We have longer guts than pure carnivores. Seems pretty clear we are designed to be omnivores who, maybe, cook our harder to digest foods.

Over the years of moderate foraging I have come to realize a couple of general rules.

Hunting is, too some degree, a crap shoot. Sometimes the critters just aren't there. Trapping is more reliable, but you still need quite a few traps to be able to be reasonably sure of eating meat every day.

Fishing is usually more reliable than hunting, especially if nets, traps or trotlines are used. (Check on legalities lest you find yourself becoming the prey of John Law). It requires water (not always around) and sometimes it comes up short also.

All that said, The only food you can live on exclusively for a long time and remain healthy is meat (including fish) with fat.

Plants are reliable though. Maybe I'm an exceptional forager, but I find plants hardly ever run away or successfully hide from me. My children rarely get so attached to them they become pets instead of food. They are in greater abundance than animal life and with a little knowledge foraging plants is pretty reliable. There are so many varieties that you can find something in almost any time of year, accept, maybe in the dead of winter. They are though, with the exception of tubers, seeds and nuts usually fairly low in calories, although often high in vitamins and minerals. I find some plants, particularly late in the season aren't always the tastiest either. I realize that my taste buds are partly programed by what I'm used to eating, but part of it is also preprogrammed into us.

Historically, while the focus and the glory always goes to the hunter, who provided the higher status and higher nutrient density meat, in almost all cultures that I know of, it was the 'gathering' part of hunter-gatherer that generally and reliably provided the bulk of most meals (lots of greens), with meat being eaten when available but with dried/smoked meat and storable tubers being saved up for the 'hungry times'of winter or dry season or drought. Any evolutionary pressure there was would be on us to adjust to that diet.

I've tried the vegetarian route, tried the carnivore route, and tried just eating whatever. I feel best on a diet of meat, vegetables and beans. I find that my practice doesn't live up to my ideals though. As long as I'm buying most of my food from the store I find my diet tends to include a lot of rice and potatoes simply because my wife doesn't fully share my enthusiasm for beans (I'ld rather have a good white bean soup than steak any day) and with a houseful of teenagers, just filling them up on a budget can be a challenge.

Part of my focus on permaculture is simply financial. I want to be more food independent, with my diet less controlled by the cash register at the supermarket.

So, returning to my initial observation. Variety!

Jan White wrote:

Thanks, Andrew. It's great when people have quantitative data. Have you ever eaten a hflc diet to compare or just the standard western diet of moderate to high fat and carbs?

when I first starsed tracking my macros it was about 40/30/30 p/c/f. Eventually I started eating much more protein. At one point I was eating around 200g a day. I wad trying to get in like 20g every 2 hours without any restrictions on fat, so it was pretry high too. i definitely made muscle gains. I reduced protein after a blood test showed high BUN...after that I didn't really notice any difference with gains. I definitely had more heart burn in that high protein stage...this was all before plant based switch...but to answer your question, I dont think I could say I've ever truly been low carb. I was trying to get under 100g a day but it was very hard. A handful of nuts can get you close too 100g instantly

I think Jan and Joseph are pointing out some confounding factors that make a simple carb vs fat study difficult. HCLF is usually HCHF. And when people talk about avoiding carbs they are primarily cutting out wheat, sugar, and processed foods. So was it the carbs or something else that is in those foods? I do wonder what you eat, Jan, if your diet is primarily carbs? Are they processed or whole carbs?
While there are 3 macro nutrients how many nutrients are there in total? We don't really know and we are finding new ones all the time. The new ones subsequently become the craze nutrient of the year. I have some friends that don't worry about macro nutrients at all. Their focus is nutrients and eating vegan nutrient dense food and a lot of herbal tea. Herbs are generally loaded to the gills with nutrients. I haven't tried their diet but it seems to work for them. I was vegetarian for a few years but now I lean towards low carb, high fat, moderate protein and whole foods. But that is where I'm at in my journey now, and the journey hasn't ended.

just came out. Interesting https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/02/160211083044.htm

Jan White wrote:It seems like most people don't realise how much fat they're actually eating. They think they're eating low fat, but aren't necessarily.

This, this, so very much this. The standard dietary advice in the US is for a "low fat" diet that parses out to twenty or thirty or even forty percent of total dietary calories from fat. This is an enormous reduction from the "SAD" (standard American diet) of highly-processed white carbs dripping with cheap vegetable oil, but it's still not "low fat" as I have come to understand the term.

What I am currently eating is a whole foods diet with no added oils of any kind, with a goal of 10% or less of total dietary calories from fat. In practice this works out to exclude virtually all meat and dairy from my diet, as it is virtually impossible to include them while meeting the fat target. It's also impossible to eat very many nuts or avocados without blowing the 10% target, but when I do blow it, that's usually where I go wrong, because there are legit reasons for bringing them home from the store, and I do -- unlike with meat and dairy.

I'm not weighing in on the "carbs versus fats" debate because from my perspective, what's "better" varies from person to person and may also depend on specific health goals. One factor nobody in this thread has mentioned yet is the impact of dietary fats on cardiovascular health. I'm not talking about the whole cholesterol issue which has lately become controversial again; I'm talking about the direct measurable vascular response to dietary fat inputs. I cured my venous insufficiency (and made that large and spreading and very worrisome dark patch on my left ankle go away) by adopting a truly low fat diet. My understanding of the mechanism breaks down in the biochemical weeds, but it involves the endothelial cells in the vascular system and the way inputs of dietary fat shuts down their production of nitric oxides, which is a signaler that controls vascular dilation. Fatty diet = less nitric = less vascular dilation = worse blood flow = greater cardiac risk and other problems.

Shifting to this way of eating also cured my diabetes (healthy A1C levels without medication), but I suspect that has more to do with the shift from processed foods to whole foods. I still eat a lot of carbs (now whole instead of refined) and I'm still obese (although I have lost a lot of weight) and I still have blood pressure issues. So I'm not pushing carbs as wonderful and fat as evil. However, if you've got issues having to do with poor circulation (including many cardiac problems, leg and foot problems, wound healing issues, or issues with erectile function) carbs may be preferable to fats. And I can testify that it's possible to eat a ton of carbs as a diabetic (at least if you do it this way) and have your blood sugars get better, instead of getting worse as the conventional wisdom predicts it should.

Dan, are you eating legumes regularly? I've seen studies showing the dampening effect on blood sugar when consuming beans. I think all the fiber from whole foods helps too

Andrew Brock wrote:Dan, are you eating legumes regularly? I've seen studies showing the dampening effect on blood sugar when consuming beans. I think all the fiber from whole foods helps too

Indeed, yes! At times they are probably the bulk of my calories, along with starchy root vegetables and onions. For a long time I was eating a lot of cooked whole grains (rice, rye, wheat, barley, spelt, kamut) usually cooked in a mix. But recently legumes (especially split peas and chickpeas, but a lot of beans too) have come to predominate.

I am confident all the fiber plays a role. I haven't seen anything on the connection between legumes and blood sugar, but it surely would not surprise me.

Jan White wrote:[
I do find that tracking meals comes in handy for people when they're troubleshooting their diets, more for nutrient tracking than calorie tracking. If there were a couple months where a person was feeling great and then it started to go downhill, they can look back and see they were consistently getting 50% more of x or an ideal ratio of certain minerals. That can be a very powerful tool.

I do track what I eat but I tend to do so more intuitively than scientifically (I'm with Bill Mollison on that one, I think he says we can't measure anything except what we have made with measurements we have created and while I am not agin science I am consicous that most science is extremely unscientific.) I am very aware of the messages my body sends me and the relationhip between food and emotions. (I have studied NLP to Master Practitioner level) For example I notice if I am starting to crave foods (like sprouted lentils, beetroots, sauerkraut, pink grapefruit ) then it may be one of 2 things either I need the nutrients in which case my body gets quite gleeful at the thought of the food, however if there is a hint of anxiety then I realise I have probably overdone it and developed a sensitivity to that particular food - with me it was beetroots and carrots - go figure! I have had this confirmed wth food intolerance tests and also by a friend very skilful in the art of dousing. She identified my top 20 most energising foods - they were my favourite foods at the time! This was in direct contrast to the other lady whose diet was so far off from the ideal that she had to instigate changes in 2 stages. I also watch my overall health (which is excellent) and my weight very closely (more via looking in the mirror or how clothes fit than by weighing). The key is identifying the difference between what your mind wants and what your body wants and while I have always been pretty good at that, I have also done a lot of work on clearing any blockages to listening to my body, mainly using EFT (Emotional Freedom Techniques)

So then when you say you were eating a low fat diet in the past, were you still eating refined fats and oils, just in smaller quantities, or had you cut it out altogether?

I'm sorry if it seems like i'm prying; I just don't often find people who have tried both diets, and I find their experiences very interesting.

Very happy to answer any questions as I too am passionate about nutrition.

I have never really eaten much by way of processed food and when I was eating a low fat diet it included just very small amounts of olive oil, but no lard or butter. I was eating moderate quanitites of meat and fish but I had eliminated all dairy from my diet due to a problem with my sinuses. I cleared this using an NLP technique and this was confirmed by my kinesiologist and have not suffered from any sinus issues in the last 20 years even though I am now eating both butter (mainly grass fed) and cheese a mix of goat/cow/sheep.

For me the secret is not carbs vs fats but leating quality unprocessed food and earning to listen to our bodies. As soon as we label ourselves for example we decide we want low fat or high carb we effectively stop listening to our bodies. Our nutritional needs are constantly changing. For example we eat much more fat in the winter because we don't use heating unless the temperature drops much below 50 degrees fahrenheit in the daytime.

I used to run a workshop called 'Taping Into Your Body Wisdom' (it's amazing how much resistance there is to listening to our bodies, LOL) and it was really fascinating uncovering the emotional ties people had to specific foods and how quickly that disappeared once the link had been identified and released.

Hope that makes it clearer, Jan.

PS My partner has just reminded me how I used to suffer from joint pain in cold humid weather back in the days but since eating more fat and having plenty of bone soup I have been completely free of any discomfort despite living in a very damp climate with chilly winters now for the last 5 years.

Andrew Brock wrote:

when I first starsed tracking my macros it was about 40/30/30 p/c/f. Eventually I started eating much more protein. At one point I was eating around 200g a day. I wad trying to get in like 20g every 2 hours without any restrictions on fat, so it was pretry high too. i definitely made muscle gains. I reduced protein after a blood test showed high BUN...after that I didn't really notice any difference with gains. I definitely had more heart burn in that high protein stage...this was all before plant based switch...but to answer your question, I dont think I could say I've ever truly been low carb. I was trying to get under 100g a day but it was very hard. A handful of nuts can get you close too 100g instantly

Interesting. Do you find you need to keep your calories higher than before to make up for the lower protein % as far as muscle gains go?

Ryan Workman wrote:I think Jan and Joseph are pointing out some confounding factors that make a simple carb vs fat study difficult. HCLF is usually HCHF. And when people talk about avoiding carbs they are primarily cutting out wheat, sugar, and processed foods. So was it the carbs or something else that is in those foods?

This is a really good point and I wondered whether to address carb types or not. I kinda figured most people on here would be thinking whole foods, but maybe not. I've heard so many people say they notice a difference when getting their carbs either from grains or from root veg and squash, me included, that I think there's likely something to that as well.

Ryan Workman wrote: I do wonder what you eat, Jan, if your diet is primarily carbs? Are they processed or whole carbs?
While there are 3 macro nutrients how many nutrients are there in total? We don't really know and we are finding new ones all the time. The new ones subsequently become the craze nutrient of the year. I have some friends that don't worry about macro nutrients at all. Their focus is nutrients and eating vegan nutrient dense food and a lot of herbal tea. Herbs are generally loaded to the gills with nutrients. I haven't tried their diet but it seems to work for them. I was vegetarian for a few years but now I lean towards low carb, high fat, moderate protein and whole foods. But that is where I'm at in my journey now, and the journey hasn't ended.

My carbs come almost entirely from whole fruit and have for close to 10 years. I drink juice occasionally, but I include a lot of pulp and often blend in greens too. Once or twice a week these days I'll have a meal-sized portion of popcorn, air or microwave popped, nothing on it, so that's a decent contribution to my calories as well. While I pay attention to macros (80/10/10), I focus on nutrient density, which is why I eat so much fruit and veg. I don't pay attention to what's currently in vogue as a superfood, though. I just try to get a good variety.

Lucy Gabzdyl wrote:

As soon as we label ourselves for example we decide we want low fat or high carb we effectively stop listening to our bodies.

I agree and think this applies to all labels. I love watching how people buy into identities instead of just being themselves.

Lucy Gabzdyl wrote:
I used to run a workshop called 'Taping Into Your Body Wisdom' (it's amazing how much resistance there is to listening to our bodies, LOL) and it was really fascinating uncovering the emotional ties people had to specific foods and how quickly that disappeared once the link had been identified and released.

Emotional eating is a very interesting subject. I think I'm pretty good at identifying it in myself for the most part, and I think I've conquered my ties to specific foods just through not having eaten them for so long. One of the first things I used to make for myself when I was tired or stressed out was brown rice with cheddar grated over the top, a favourite food from childhood. I never even think of it anymore and have no desire for it. The only thing I really notice nowadays is an aversion to certain foods which usually happens when the seasons change or if I've been eating a lot of something for quite a while. I can see habits in other people that they're not at all aware of, and wonder what I'm missing in myself though!

On thing that really helps me evaluate the success of people's dietary beliefs is height and weight. How about it? Anyone up for sharing?

I'm 6'2" and 195#. My weight is down 55# since I stopped eating wheat.

I eat very few grains. During the winter I mostly eat roots, fruits (squash), eggs, meat, and coconut oil. During spring and summer i eat lots of greens, and not many fruits or roots, mostly raw, grazed directly from the field. I eat lots of raw sweet corn during the month or so that it is in season. My diet is most diversified during the fall. I mostly always eat whole foods: By that I mean that I can still tell what species it is when it goes in my mouth. I almost never eat foods containing dyes, or mystery ingredients. When I eat foods prepared by others, I often add a tablespoon or two per bowl of coconut oil or butter to make it more palatable to me.

Joseph Lofthouse wrote:
On thing that really helps me evaluate the success of people's dietary beliefs is height and weight. How about it? Anyone up for sharing?

5'1" and 130lbs. That may sound heavy for my height, but I have a stocky, muscular build - very much the mesomorph - and I actually use my muscles. My 6' 150lb husband likes to gripe about how my biceps are bigger than his. I had Hodgkins disease a few years ago and haven't leaned out as much as before chemo, though - not that I was 2% body fat before or anything - but my weight was more like 120.

Jan White wrote:
5'1" and 130lbs.
My 6' 150lb husband

Excellent. Seems like your eating patterns are working well for you.

Joseph Lofthouse wrote:
On thing that really helps me evaluate the success of people's dietary beliefs is height and weight. How about it? Anyone up for sharing?

I'm 5'1" and weigh 110 pounds. I increased the fat, decreased the carbs and lost a about 5 lbs without trying. The permaculture approach - observation is key with small tweaks as required.

So many topics that strike home these days...

I eat a ketogenic diet. (the one where fat is your fuel source) I began it over a year ago because my stressful job was making my blood sugar problems show up again, and I was forgetting things a lot and fuzzy headed. This is NOT a good thing when you are managing 60 projects. I'd read that the keto diet had a good result on a woman doctor correcting her hsuband's Alzheimer's, and that people with diabetes had returned to "normal" levels of A1C testing. It originated (and why I remembered it in the first place) to treat (and cure many) children with epilepsy - I had a few seizures in the past and had been put on a high protein low carb diet at the time to help, which it did. The excess protein isn't really necessary or the part that is therapeutic though.

It has made a huge difference in my life. I am calm, lucid, my memory has improved, no longer tired and even have enhanced energy, and I never get food emergencies anymore. Btw, eating fat used to make me really really sluggish. You have to eat this way for a week or more before your body switches over and then eating fat becomes like a shot of vitamins or popeye's spinach! The most I ever experienced during the switch was the feeling you have the next day after you've had wine the night before. Not quite a hangover. I lose my way now and then, (holidays, birthdays, girl scout cookie campaign, etc.) but I never experience any discomfort returning to the state of ketosis if I get off track. I'm not concerned about putting strain on some organs, since the benefits (for me at least) far outweigh any risks.

Fun fact I have learned. When women breast-feed, their bodies are naturally in ketosis.

I tend to think our primitive forbearers were often in ketosis, and the mechanism to switch fuels exists so our body had options depending on what was available as a fuel source. Maybe this was even seasonally...

Unlike a lot of people, I haven't lost weight on it because, in the interest of sustainability, I chose not to be strict about it. I try to eat less than 30 carbs a day, which is about one serving of what most people have with every meal, but I don't measure or weigh anything. It's more that I cook a zero carb diet and then treat myself to a small bag of chips or a granola bar or something when I feel naughty. Treating epilepsy is achieved by putting children on a ratio of 4:1 parts fat to carbs. Staying in ketosis (where your body ignores carbs as its fuel source) can be maintained at 2:1. It's much easier to just think in terms of ratios. My diet is full of healthy organic veggies and at 2:1 is a yummy and not gross level of fat. I had to switch from mostly vegan to lacto-ovo vegetarian in order to do this easily.

The problem is I love and rely on coconut oil a lot, because it is closest to pure medium chain triglycerides (MCTs), which is like pure fuel. And I live in a temperate climate and there aren't local sources for coconut oil. I like butter too but I also would prefer to be vegan, and so my new reliance on dairy disturbs me. Someday, when I have land, I would like to explore nut cheese and pressing my own olive oil, but I know that it takes a long time to establish fruiting trees and I also don't know what the yield is and how many I will need. Maybe my love of coconut oil and coffee will be the bulk of my social security check later! Cashew, Walnut, Almond and Olives, and if that means I have to stay here in California where the land is impossibly expensive and there isn't enough water to feed such thirsty producers. Hmm. maybe I should have posted this in the growies section...

Jan White wrote:

Interesting. Do you find you need to keep your calories higher than before to make up for the lower protein % as far as muscle gains go?

No i don't think so. When i was trying to get 180 to 200g of protein today it took effort. For me, HCLF is much more intuitive to eat. I try to include as much raw as possible, and really target minerals and omegas. The protein consumption just becomes incidental with the food i'm eating. Honestly i feel gains are easier now then before. I attribute that to the anti-inflammatory and alkaline nature of my diet. Also, i'm 5'11" and 187lb

20 Mainstream Nutritional Myths Busted

My chiropractor just sent me this, it has all the links to the studies and medical journals under each myth, definitely worth a read for all those still stuck on the high carb low fat diet.