gift
10 Podcast Review of the book Just Enough by Azby Brown
will be released to subscribers in: soon!
  • Post Reply Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic
permaculture forums growies critters building homesteading energy monies kitchen purity ungarbage community wilderness fiber arts art permaculture artisans regional education skip experiences global resources cider press projects digital market permies.com pie forums private forums all forums
this forum made possible by our volunteer staff, including ...
master stewards:
  • Carla Burke
  • John F Dean
  • r ransom
  • Nancy Reading
  • Timothy Norton
  • Jay Angler
stewards:
  • paul wheaton
  • Pearl Sutton
  • Eric Hanson
master gardeners:
  • Christopher Weeks
  • M Ljin
gardeners:
  • thomas rubino
  • Megan Palmer
  • Benjamin Dinkel

Zone 1

 
                            
Posts: 16
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Forgive another basic question...
I'm about to start planting Zone 1. Area has been laid with newspaper/cardboard, and well rotted manure etc added. Now I need to add my plants and I have a wide range to choose from, right for the climate. But how to decide which plants to put where...?

The possible species that can go in the area are more than 400...

I'm used to 'traditional' veg gardening so my inclination would be to plant companion species close to each other....but permaculture has pretty much thrown everything i thought I knew out of the box... Wish I could find a detailed plan or diagram of a zone 1 to follow...




 
Posts: 1093
Location: Western WA
11
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
The plants that need the most attention go in Zone 1.

"Attention' means watering, weeding, harvesting and checking for problems.  The plants that you plant and water occasionally, but are harvested at the end of the season don't go here, like winter squashes.

If you use (or intend to use) herbs in cooking, having it just outside the door is very useful.  The same with salad ingredients.  Leaf lettuces, kale, chives and spinach can be harvested one leaf at a time, so you'll be doing it frequently.  Green bunching onions are usually pulled a few at a time, and the same with radishes.  Edible flowers like nasturtiums and calendula.  Tomatoes. Carrots.  Maybe a couple of bush zucchini or other summer squashes.  A couple of cucumber plants on trellises.

Just a little further from the door, asparagus and artichokes.

Why not make a list of all your possible plants in your word processing program, then separate them into groups by the amount of care they will need.  The most care gets the lower number, the least care gets the highest numbers.

And for your Zone 1, if you don't go to the back end of the house much, that isn't Zone 1 even if it's close.  Between the house and car is Zone 1.  Between the back door and along the path to the chicken pen is Zone 1.

Sometimes there is a blending of zones, which is okay.  if you can't decide EXACTLY where it goes, put it somewhere in the middle.  After it's been there for a while, you'll know if you need to bring it in closer for convenience or farther out because it doesn't need as much attention as you thought.

Having your compost pile and/or worm farm near the back door is quick when it's raining.

Sue
 
                            
Posts: 16
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Sue, that all makes sense.  But planting by ease of use seems to easy! Am I not supposed to structure zone 1 according to various levels of height, as in a forest system? I'm far happier planting a great mass of plants and then observing carefully how they turn out... But is it that simple?
 
Susan Monroe
Posts: 1093
Location: Western WA
11
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
People have put certain kinds of agriculture into boxes, and so other people think it has to be that way.

Once the plow was invented, larger areas could be grown.  It was simplest to make long rows because you can't turn an ox or a horse on a dime.

Some Permaculture people have been trying for YEARS (well, at least since 1978) to turn it into a religion.  It isn't, and never was intended to be, as far as I can tell.  It is a GUIDE, not rules engraved in stone.

But, breaking it down to the simplest way, go with ease, common sense, multifunctionality (if that is a word), and protect resources.

Put the plants that need the most care closest to where you usually are, or where you pass frequently.

Some plants like all the sun they can get, others don't mind some shade in summer.  So, if you want to trellis your cucumbers to keep them growing straight and away from ground bugs and slugs, put it up to get the maximum amount of sun, but the best place might be the north side of your Zone 1, so it doesn't cast a lot of shade on other plants.  Where the trellised cucumbers shade the ground for part of the day is a good place to grow lettuces, so it might not even matter.  Just don't put sun/heat lovers in the shade.  Hiding your tomatoes from the sun behind a bean trellis will cut down on the amount of tomatoes you get, and they will be slow to ripen.

Improve the soil on a regular basis with organic matter. A soil test from a reliable lab will tell you what nutrients are missing from your soil (no soil is perfect), and go by their recommendations to replace them.  Tell them you are growing organically, so they know what kind of specific recommendations to make.

Don't get paralyzed trying to get the design perfect.  Perennials and trees are more difficult to move, so why not wait until next year to decide what the best places for them might be?  An asparagus bed would be a pain to move, but rhubarb and blueberry bushes can be moved.  Most vegetables are annuals.  If you put the cabbages in the 'wrong' place this year, you can plant them in a better place next year.  You will be learning all the time. After a few years, a lot of stuff will have become instinctive.  A really BAD mistake will teach you a lot, and you aren't likely to do it again!

Pay attention to what is going on in your garden.  The best gardeners and permaculturists are good observers.  Taking notes is a good thing.

Keep it simple.

Sue
 
                            
Posts: 16
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Thanks for taking the time to explain all that Sue, excellent advice! I shall get to work....
 
author and steward
Posts: 57480
Location: missoula, montana (zone 4)
hugelkultur trees chicken wofati bee woodworking
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Japhy,

I think one of the most powerful things about permaculture is the polyculture.  It's kinda like taking the whole polyculture concept to a whole new level. 

When you look at how Sepp does it, he has seed mixes and he will plant a massive area with a gallon of one big mix of probably 50 different things. 

In your zone 1, you will have, maybe, three or four beds, and, thus three or four mixes. 

Or, what I tend to do is to go out one week and plant a bunch of stuff, and then go out a few weeks later and plant a bunch of other stuff ....  Just don't be bashful about thinning stuff that isn't doing well.  Zone 1 is where you do lots of futzing with your growies. 

Oh, and about the cardboard:  I am part of the 30% of permies that are against the use of cardboard or newspaper as a garden mulch.

 
Susan Monroe
Posts: 1093
Location: Western WA
11
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Why are you against cardboard, Paul?

Sue
 
paul wheaton
author and steward
Posts: 57480
Location: missoula, montana (zone 4)
hugelkultur trees chicken wofati bee woodworking
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Susan Monroe wrote:
Why are you against cardboard, Paul?

Sue



What are carboard and newspaper made out of?  Bits of wood and glue. 

It is the glue that concerns me.  My understanding is that when it breaks down, it breaks down into some things that are on the toxic side.  One of the things is formaldehyde. 

Further, this layer will often create a layer that cannot be penetrated by air or water.  Not an idea horticultural environment.

 
Susan Monroe
Posts: 1093
Location: Western WA
11
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
"...this layer will often create a layer that cannot be penetrated by air or water"

That's not been my experience, although I guess it could be in other climates.  The first creatures visible under the cardboard are worms and sowbugs.  The worms and coming and going, as I can see their holes when I lift the cardboard.  Almost immediately, the layer of cardboard on the bottom starts to rot and show signs that something is eating on it.  It breaks down fastest under rocks or bricks, and next is under a good mulch. The last to break down are the cardboard surfaces exposed to sunlight and air -- I think the drying effect is what is 'preserving' it.

A couple of years ago, a neighbor set some old plywood out to take to the dump.  I was looking for a simple way to keep the weeds and grass down in a hard-to-mow area, and wondered if just laying the plywood down would do the job, so I did some research.

I discovered that indoor plywood has a urea/formaldehyde adhesive, and outdoor plywood has a phenol/formaldehyde adhesive.  Urea is a form of nitrogen fertilizer by itself, and neither the phenol nor the formaldehyde lasts long when composted, about two weeks, IIRC.  Higher additions of nitrogen assisted with the breakdown of the plywood and the adhesives. With the breakdown of the phenol and formaldehyde in compost, the researchers said plywood would be okay to use in those large commercial composting sites (where they use large equipment to turn the windrows of compost).

While it may not be to organic standards, I was only using it in a few places that were highly unlikely to be used for food production, anyway.

I hadn't really thought about cardboard having formaldehyde, so I just looked it up, and at a British/organic site, they had this to say about corrugated cardboard:

"The type of cardboard you describe does not usually contain glue as it is made from cellulose fibres which stick together naturally. It is a great addition to your compost heap or can be used for mulching."  http://perrone.blogs.com/horticultural/2008/02/i-recently-had.html

However, this article only specified corrugated cardboard, not any other kind.

And, since I have had the best results with cardboard (my sources of covering mulch is often limited), I will continue to use it.

Sue
 
Being a smart ass beats the alternative. This tiny ad knows what I'm talking about:
Learn Permaculture through a little hard work
https://wheaton-labs.com/bootcamp
reply
    Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic