Tree Growing Through Roof Of 1 Story Factory Floor

Hello group,

 I may not have thought this one out properly but hope it won't be an issue.  We built a 1 story production line for making work pants. Right about in the middle was a very old mango tree so the decision was to leave it as well as the coconut tree along the edge of the one side and another younger mango tree on the other side of this structure that is 42 feet wide and all concrete.  So to keep from chocking it we made two flat bar in a larger circle than the trunk and welded to the metal framing.  We then took black upholstery vinyl and made a skirt that does not touch the trunk allowing water draining it to get to the base of the tree.  There is a square in the concrete floor about 9 inches to 1 foot wider than the trunk on one direction and over a foot in the other direction.

 Plan is/was to pour water into the base of the tree trunk and let it soak into the soil once a day.  Then I realized I pretty much know nothing about trees.  Rest of the plan was to make a roof top garden which we are still needing to make.  My worry/concern is that if I water only the dirt near the base it won't make it to the root structure and the tree will die as it is all concrete now.  I saw information on the thread about PVC pipe with holes and know there is a main root that here is called the "mother root".  Will I need to drill holes in the concrete and allow water into the holes or will I be able to water the base of the tree and it will survive.  This is a very old mango and I refer to the workers it being a "senior citizen" and to treat it with care.  Any advise would be recommended.  Plan was to water and then if the dirt becomes denser to add more dirt.  I've seen trees surrounded by concrete before so may have made a really big assumption it would be enough to water just the base of the trunk.

Best regards,
Mike

Here is a picture of the factory floor we are working on.  The construction is not complete yet. The 36 foot long cutting table will be on other side of tree trunk in picture.  On roof top we will make 2 foot wide fiberglass covered marine plywood walk paths for the roof top garden.  All sides of building are screened.  Adding picture to give an idea of opening at base of tree where the plan was to add water every day

Best regards,
Mn

Mike Kendall wrote:Hello group,

There is a square in the concrete floor about 9 inches to 1 foot wider than the trunk on one direction and over a foot in the other direction.

 
Mike

This worries me a fair bit. If I am understanding the situation properly a building has been established around a preexisting tree, including pouring a concrete slab to within a few inches of the trunk of the tree? If I have understood correctly it is likely that the preexisting roots of the tree have been extensively damaged, both in the laying of the concrete and in the long term impact of covering the roots which impacts much more than just water penetration.

You mention that you have seen trees with concrete up close to the trunks. I have seen the same. In many cases the tree was planted at around the same time that the concrete was poured, and the roots have developed to coexist with the concrete. They will be growing to find water and nutrients. In other cases, where a slab has been pours later, major roots are cut and/or smothered in which case the health of the overall tree can be harmed.

In the short term, observe the tree. If it looks like it is wilting or lacking in vigor, it may be necessary to give it a fairly hard prune. If the root system has been damaged it may be too much growth on top for it to sustain, until the roots have re-established themselves.

Is there a local tree professional you can get involved to come and have a look at it?

I`ve also seen a fair number of buildings built around trees. Generally a bit more space is left around the trunk/roots. What is the roof situation? Is it open to rain and then the rain can funnel down into it with the vinyl skirt (I`m not sure I understood that part)? Also, what is the situation for when the tree is making flowers/dropping mess and also fruiting?
I would also echo the suggestion to have someone come in and look at it. You may get away with just breaking a bit of concrete around it to give it more space (the trees I`ve seen usually have a wire grate type situation around them, or are species like Ficus elasticus that just thrive in (and while breaking up) concrete.
This is one of those at a restaurant I've been to a few times. Gorgeous tree.

Mike,  a lot of old summer houses on the West Coast were built with redwood trees growing up in the middle.  For starters, in a storm they really rock back and forth, sometimes causing damage to the roof, and leaks.  Slowly but surely the trees kept growing, getting wider and wider, and lots of changes had to be made in the floors and roofs of these houses.  It is something that needs taking care of every few years, especially if there's a rainy year and the tree grows more than usual.

If you want to make a commitment to a tree, and be prepared to have to open up the roof and reseal it every once in a while, then it could work.

How about the roots getting into the plumbing underneath the concrete?  Could it cause lifting of the slab, cracking, deformation and leaks of the plumbing, or intrusion into the lines, whether it's water lines or sewer lines?

Did the previous owner get an estimate on whatever issue the tree was causing?  Maybe there's a local tree removal service that looked at it, and you can get information from them.

And....if there is such an estimate or issues with the tree, and the previous owner did not  declare that during the sale, you maybe have some recourse regarding repairs with the tree or a change in the price.  You'd probably need to consult a real estate lawyer if that's the case.  It doesn't mean a lawsuit, it's just that lawyers can write effective letters and they know the boundaries of such a situation.

Hello group,

 Thanks for the answers so far on this problem/puzzle.  This morning after getting supplies and workers going (for now) I reviewed the flooring.  This tree had previously had a concrete all around the trunk for about 5 years that is over 2 feet tall.  Kind of like a built in planter that was made from concrete to look like bamboo (concrete shaped and painted).  So the flooring is at least 1.5 feet or maybe even closer to 2 feet above the original flooring of the yard/jungle (depending on how far back one goes in time  The concrete has not touched the roots as a result and likely there is room for the roots as they continue to grow.  I would definitely call this beautiful and magnificent mango a "senior citizen" deserving extra care

 With the trunk vertical and not tapering because the added dirt around the trunk and the concrete slab not touching them I think the big concern is nutrients to keep this tree healthy.  I've read that microbes will live in the soil and maybe I'm killing all the microbes being part of the life cycle or again likely completely wrong?  If water is the main issue then will I need to drill some holes in the slab or will I be able to get all this to the ring of exposed dirt around the trunk varying up to around 1.5 feet from the vertical trunk?  

 The slab itself is completely over engineered to the max.  It is 7 inches with two layers of metal/rebar. Basically short stubs were vertically welded so that the two layers keep suspension from each other before the pour and then 4.5mm steel mat also attached.  Way overkill but the slab is not going to easily crack.  Also some thin wood every 12 feet to keep those types of cracks at bay also.  

 If I add nutrients with water what would then be?  Compost, chemicals, combination or nothing?  Should I drill a couple holes and use these holes as points of nutrient delivery?  Between the tree, the roof top garden with narrow 2 foot walk ways, and the overall attention to design (including motifs of grass/flowers to be painted under the screen for the short surrounding wall) I want this to really feel nice to the worker environment.  Outside the screen can be seen an abundance of greenery while folks will be working.  Probably way too much information but I'm trying to describe the importance of ensuring our "senior citizen" mango is able to thrive.

 This all has been done over the last 6 months and the slab itself I think poured over 6 months ago (work continued non stop during the pandemic....first folks just came in through the lower property with a nod from the powers to be then later just through the front gate).  I've not noticed any withering of the leaves or difference between the other mangos near by. That does not rule out a slow decline in tree health and so I'm wanting to take any and all actions to prevent this.  

Kind regards,
Mike

You figure the tree is well established and should have a root system that roughly reflects its dripline and goes way down. If it has access to water in this root area I (ground that rain falls on) would not water the tree beyond the normal rainfall regime, unless you have a wacky drought. I would fertilize regularly (like once or twice a year, like any other tree) with what you have at hand (here it would be rabbit manure tea or bokashi liquid tea or maybe bone meal and castor bean meal).
You arent killing the soil by paving it over. I see mangoes growing on sidewalks in town areas and they are gorgeous and prolific despite the crummy soil under sidewalk/roads. I think you'll do fine, but there are good questions raised above, especially in terms of safety (do you get storms where you are?) growth, etc.

Hello again,

  Zero plumbing in structure.  Picture of vinyl skirt as of today attached still needs prime and paint on welds/flat bar.  It is open with inches of space between trunk and roof.  Great idea on rabbit manure.  We have both chickens and rabbits but I read the chicken manure is too "hot" but we are already using the rabbit manure for our garden plants and not smelly so much. This structure is entirely screened on all four sides with flat bar/steel mat on other side of screen all painted.  

 I've also attached picture of our tree house two stories not including the ground.  Has two fold down beds, dorm sized reefer, shower/toilet/sink in bathroom, balcony with small kitchenette. Bottom is recovered crates made into butcher block table.  We dug 360 degrees around roots and encased in pie sections re enforced concrete even under center of tree.  Top "grass" roof hides 12 solar panels which was a leaking problem but since fixed.  Scraped all bark and treated this very hard wood as the tree was 100 years old before construction workers cut the mother root killing it.

Kind regards,
Mike

Ditto what Tereza said: extra water is just an invitation for root-rot in that immediate area.  It's clearly getting water somewhere.  I wouldn't water daily.  Perhaps every two weeks, but even then, if it's that large, it's got roots that extend a long way underground.

Most concrete pads are poured on top of a compacted later of sand or road-grade fill.  The roots will move along that space, pushing their way through that layer right below the concrete.  I tore out a solid concrete patio years ago that had a queen palm planted in a 2-foot circle right in the middle of it.  The roots from that palm had spread 20 feet in every direction, directly below the concrete.  It was getting all the water it needed.

Hello again and thanks again!  

 Never heard of root rot before.  We will not water every day based upon the advice. Yes to another question....mango trees drop allot of fruit and sap laden droppings.  I read somewhere the mango is a "country cousin" to the poison ivy plant.

 It is almost the end of the rainy season.  To answer a different question on storms it is almost the end or already at the end of the typhoon season as well.  I'll keep a close eye out on things.  I know coconut tree roots are not that big from what I'm aware of but did not know the mango roots grew out so far as potentially 20 feet.  

 I'm very eager to get this roof top garden.  Always hearing complaints from folks about this extremely irritating mini Vietnamese pot bellied pig we now have as one of our pets (owners didn't want it as it was getting bigger so we took it on).  It loves doing piggy stuff which includes pushing anything into the pool and eating our vegetables.  The roof top garden will put an end to that  

Kind regards,
Mike

Mike, your setup is very pretty.

Not sure what you have where you are, but I'd be concerned here about what would happen in that skirt (doesn`t that sound like a double entendre...). Heavy rain, moisture and some detritus/etc collected, fungus... here I have these beetles that would be in there boring holes in a hot minute.
I understand you have a working factory floor you want to keep dry, clean, etc. If it were me, I would be making that skirt into a cone, facing UPWARD, and I`d envision something like clear PVC or plexi. It won`t fit tight (allowing the tree to dry out and not creating an excellent hideyhole for bad critters), but it will only allow water to run down the tree, which seems to be okay in your situation there.

Hi Tereza,

 I'm used to speaking pretty simple English here as it is not the primary language so I had to look up the double entendre  Speaking of double entendre the skirt has a zipper on the side and the top is held in place with the same hardware used for the jeep tops here so it comes off pretty easy and quick.  Just turn to unlock and the hardware can release through it.  Likely it is a minute and it is off.  I remember seeing trees with white stuff painted on the base to keep the bugs off the bark.  If it is hidden under the skirt I wonder if it would be "ok" to paint something on the bark to help protect it then have a maintenance schedule where the skirt comes off....more double entendre I'm certain?  

Kind regards,
Mike

 Edited to add the following....I asked a worker if the tree is a boy or a girl today (person helping with the skirt) and was quickly told it is a boy.  Now I'm not so sure with the whole skirt thing maybe it needs to be identified as a girl.  It is solid black so it can't be called a kilt I think

Maybe your status quo should be skirt off as much as possible. Commando tree, if you will. You want air. Not sure about your rainy season and general rainfall scheme, but I think in this case I'd try to keep it off as much as possible and only put it on when you're expecting weather.

They paint the trees white here too, I've had people tell me it is to repel caterpillars and ants, others tell me it is Bordeux mixture for fungus, but my impression, seeing that rocks, fenceposts, concrete power poles, kerbs and other things are also painted white in these areas, is that it is one of those cultural cleanliness things that I will never understand.

As for the boy, as far as I know mangoes mix both "sexes" on the same tree. Some flowers have male parts and other female parts, the insects go around mixing it all up for you (and 99% of the flower mess ends up on your roof!)
You have to ask your staff how they know the tree is a boy. These conversations venturing into the absurd often are the most enjoyable! (I've lived outside my own culture for most of my life and bumbled through a number of languages/cultures, it's always fun)

Hi Tereza,

 It is 9:15 PM here now and went to "lock up" this lower structure and grab a couple eggs for breakfast (lucky there was two as our triplets love to cook them faster than we can harvest them making cakes and other cooking projects).  

 Interesting to learn the gender of the mango trees not being specific.....I'm learning more and more from Permies.  We do love the trees here and I've got scolded each and every time by the triplets when I have no choice but to take down a tree because construction.  One was what is called a "Golden Coconut" which is a rarer species but it had to come down to make way for the driveway and concern it would fall on a building.  I recommended to the neighbor (in-laws) they put a cable around it so that it would fall on their house instead of ours and go-figure they called me crazy for that joke.  The plan is to plant for every one that comes down but a "Senior Citizen tree" deserves special treatment unlike the mahogany given for "free" to plant by the government in a ditch.....then later finding out it drastically changes the PH of the soil and nothing will grow around it any more as far as native really cool trees go.

 So the skirt did not come off nearly as easy as I imagined or hoped it would (more double entendre I'm certain but I'm doing my best to describe all this).  The Mrs. here went down with me and we discussed it.  She also said to take off the skirt unless it is raining.  Gotta listen to expert advice coming from the Mrs. and you now have mentioned same so that is advice to heed.  My comment is if I put some type of paint or whatever is used then remove the skirt its going to be NQR (not quite right) visually so maybe I'll go without the paint.  

 The comment was if I put darts in this to make it a cone the seams will leak. Seams can be sealed somewhat so I'm not so sure that is such an issue really.  Then I'll be able to get a third ring and do some fine tuning on the skirt to get a better fit and put it outside the three rings.  This will achieve a proper air gap between the trunk and the skirt/rings.  

 Tomorrow will be day two on all this but I'm now armed with knowledge thanks to this forum and will re evaluate everything then take action.  I'll post picture of the Mk 2 Mod 0 version of the skirt and tree if/when we make changes tomorrow on the commando skirt/tree

Kind regards,
Mike

Hello group,  I'm long overdue for an update on this thread.  First, the zipper works like a charm on the commando skirt.  I can unzip it and leaves as well as other dried matter just fall out to the ground so that works great taking only seconds to unzip then zip.  I owe a picture regarding the drainage solution (but it is dark outside so will do this tomorrow).  Basically we made a sloping frame with a small amount of roofing material to divert the water away from running into the hole for the tree.  Works even in torrential rains it seems.  So besides the guilt of not posting recently and stating an iou on pics we also made a stair up to the roof.  Since the property is terraced it is only about 3 feet to climb and we are working that now (hence reason for no pics).  Also, at the risk of jumping thread topics the purpose of the stairs is to gain access to making a giant factory roof top garden.  This beautiful senior citizen mango tree is magnificent but so magnificent it is providing partial shading.  The list of veggies we are currently growing and trying our best to keep the mini-pig pet (named RagChew) from eating is:  Petchay, Bachoy, Lettuce green/purple (not round), Kangkong, Kale purple/green, Spinach, Rocket lettuce, Basil, Parsley, Rosemary, Tyme, Radish, Asian green, Micro green.  I mention this because I want to get input on an idea/theory.  Since we are growing all this in hanging recycled plastic 1.5 liter coke bottles (and similar) we can easily move them around.  The idea is to let this yummy veggies grow as seedlings until their leaves can spread out a little to better gather sunlight in an open area then later move them into the partial shade in hopes they then will have the facilities to gather the light needed to make delicious dinners and salads.  Not sure if this is a proven methodology but to my un-educated S.W.A.G. (Scientific Wild A$$ Guess)  it just seems to make sense in making the most of resources.  Pictures tomorrow promise.  Unfortunately, the fiberglass covered 19 inch wide marine ply walkways (with sand sprinkled on top as final resin coat for non slip) are not done yet so it will be incomplete work in progress.  Kind regards, Mike

lots of things to comment on (sounds awesome) but one thing: your seedlings will probably develop best in part shade. Little newborns are tender and sunburn easily. In my part of the world that may mean a shade cloth that cuts 50% of the sun, and it can be removed later when the plants are strong enough. Maybe you can add a frame where you can attach one of these (I have a super simple setup where it is tied to posts and then to the corner of my carport, and removed when I please).