Bacteria and molds in compost

So, I’ll start out by saying that I had a hard time deciding whether to post this here or in the chicken forums, or in the soil forums... either way, I’m sure I’ll get some valuable insight and opinions.

In light of our chickens apparently having respiratory issues and having been in recent contact with moldy feed, and having a mushroom grow operation get contaminated, I’m wondering about molds and bacteria.

I’ve read so many times to make sure chickens can’t access moldy feed. Ive read to make sure bedding doesn’t mold. I’m aware that some molds, mildews and bacteria can cause all sorts of issues in plants and animals... but I’ve also read of people feeding their animals all manner of old produce and literally keeping a flock of chickens on top of a compost pile. Surely a variety of molds and bacteria are in all compost piles and old produce.

I’m sure different molds and bacteria have different effects and cant all be lumped together, but there has to be some way to make sense of these opposing ideas for those of us who dont have lab equipment at our disposal!

My thoughts are:

should I throw my contaminated mushroom grow into the compost or will that cause future issues for my plants?

Do I really need to cut the moldy bits off of produce that I’m giving to the chickens?

Do I need to learn colors, smells and other signs that can help distinguish between different bacteria and molds?

Any advice, experience or opinions are appreciated!

Hi Brody, I'll offer my thoughts and I hope they assist you in making some choices.

Brody Ekberg wrote:

should I throw my contaminated mushroom grow into the compost or will that cause future issues for my plants?

I would toss them in if it were my compost pile. While all fungi can't be lumped into one group and there are fungi that are the cause of named diseases in plants, I believe it's nothing to fear and creating balance and harmony in a soil greatly reduces the chances of fungal pathogens infecting plants. Fungi and their spores, both good and "bad" are everywhere. Here's some more reading: https://permies.com/t/86117/Bacteria-Fungi-Nematodes

Do I really need to cut the moldy bits off of produce that I’m giving to the chickens?

In my opinion no. I raise chickens and have been doing so for seven years and I've seen my chickens eat and drink some gross things. I provide good water for them and they will drink multi day old stagnant puddle water.  I do agree to avoid feeding chickens moldy feed and I personally would instead compost that feed. Often times it's not the living bacteria or fungi that can be a possible compromise to health but rather toxic compounds produced by bacteria and fungi. One example I can think of is botulism. Botulism bacteria directly aren't a threat to human health, but rather it's the botulism toxin created by the bacteria that can cause a host of health maladies. I give my chickens questionable tomatoes from my garden, ones that I choose not to eat that have spots or white fuzz on them or are soft and oozing.

Do I need to learn colors, smells and other signs that can help distinguish between different bacteria and molds?

That choice is up to you. I believe one helpful thing to know is the smell of anaerobic decay. It smells foul, septic and putrescent. It is anaerobic microbes that can potentially cause challenges in creating healthy soil. If a compost pile begins to smell like this, simple turning and incorporating oxygen will kill anaerobic microbes and support aerobic decomposition.  It can be fun to learn things but I don't think being a walking knowledge base of microbial life is needed for successful composting, gardening or animal stewardship. Fortunately we have resources like Permies to go to when in doubt.

Hi Brody,

I feel that respiratory issues are usually an issue of insufficient air changes, and sometimes excessive dryness. If people can successfully deep-litter their chooks in winter without worry, and they do, some environmental microbes shouldn't pose a problem unless there's a ventilation issue.

If you wanted to eliminate the possibility, though, you could feed a BSFL chicken feeder with your kitchen scraps, and feed your chooks at one remove.

Good luck, and keep us posted.

-CK

James Freyr wrote:Hi Brody, I'll offer my thoughts and I hope they assist you in making some choices.

Brody Ekberg wrote:

should I throw my contaminated mushroom grow into the compost or will that cause future issues for my plants?

I would toss them in if it were my compost pile. While all fungi can't be lumped into one group and there are fungi that are the cause of named diseases in plants, I believe it's nothing to fear and creating balance and harmony in a soil greatly reduces the chances of fungal pathogens infecting plants. Fungi and their spores, both good and "bad" are everywhere. Here's some more reading: https://permies.com/t/86117/Bacteria-Fungi-Nematodes

Do I really need to cut the moldy bits off of produce that I’m giving to the chickens?

In my opinion no. I raise chickens and have been doing so for seven years and I've seen my chickens eat and drink some gross things. I provide good water for them and they will drink multi day old stagnant puddle water.  I do agree to avoid feeding chickens moldy feed and I personally would instead compost that feed. Often times it's not the living bacteria or fungi that can be a possible compromise to health but rather toxic compounds produced by bacteria and fungi. One example I can think of is botulism. Botulism bacteria directly aren't a threat to human health, but rather it's the botulism toxin created by the bacteria that can cause a host of health maladies. I give my chickens questionable tomatoes from my garden, ones that I choose not to eat that have spots or white fuzz on them or are soft and oozing.

Do I need to learn colors, smells and other signs that can help distinguish between different bacteria and molds?

That choice is up to you. I believe one helpful thing to know is the smell of anaerobic decay. It smells foul, septic and putrescent. It is anaerobic microbes that can potentially cause challenges in creating healthy soil. If a compost pile begins to smell like this, simple turning and incorporating oxygen will kill anaerobic microbes and support aerobic decomposition.  It can be fun to learn things but I don't think being a walking knowledge base of microbial life is needed for successful composting, gardening or animal stewardship. Fortunately we have resources like Permies to go to when in doubt.

Thanks for the input and that link! Dr Redhawk is full of good advice, as always! Also, good point about toxins. I believe you are correct in saying that a lot of the time it is toxins produce by bacteria that are the issue, not the bacteria itself.

Chris Kott wrote:Hi Brody,

I feel that respiratory issues are usually an issue of insufficient air changes, and sometimes excessive dryness. If people can successfully deep-litter their chooks in winter without worry, and they do, some environmental microbes shouldn't pose a problem unless there's a ventilation issue.

If you wanted to eliminate the possibility, though, you could feed a BSFL chicken feeder with your kitchen scraps, and feed your chooks at one remove.

Good luck, and keep us posted.

-CK

I really dont think there’s any air issues that the chickens should be experiencing. I did have DE in the coop and it was quite dusty, but I removed it, changed bedding and dusted recently and still got a new hen wheezing afterwards. And they are surrounded by windows while roosting, so constant fresh air all night long.

I think I need to research the bsfl idea again. Ive heard so many times that worms and grubs can carry parasites that harm chickens, but that seems wildly unreasonable to worry about. Not saying it isnt true, but they are birds. Worms and grubs should be one of their primary food sources in my opinion. I feel like they should be healthy enough to handle a reasonable parasite load from eating bugs, worms and larvae.

I was unaware of any worm or grub-borne parasite that infects chickens. Could you point me at some reading on that?

Rotating fowl in tractors and following larger herbivores within the window in which the parasites hatch from their feces is standard practice according to the Salatin method, to decrease or eliminate parasite load on the pasture. I would love to know what parasites that can infect chickens can stow away on which worms and insects. Their lists of symbiotes are usually short and specific.

Also, parasites have little to nothing to do with bacteria and mould. Parasites need living hosts most of the time, except when eggs hatch in feces. Some parasites infect third parties, like ants, and make them do suicidal things, like climb to the top of grass blades, to more easily be ingested into the digestive tract of their herbivorous hosts. But I am unaware of parasites that could potentially come in from kitchen and non-animal sources to your compost.

If you could tell us a bit about how you build your compost, and what goes into it, that might help.

Also, the bit about mouldy feed is probably a concern about aflatoxin, a toxin that, if I remember correctly, is a by-product of mould that grows on feed and remains toxic even after heat treatments. No, chooks should never be fed mouldy, or mouldy-smelling, feed.

Apparently oxidisation is effective against aflatoxin, so hydrogen peroxide would work, then a good compost. Or probably time spent in a good, hot, aerobically active compost might do.

Most searches I do for herbal remedies focus on external and intestinal parasites, but most agree that nettle, thyme, oregano, basil, and garlic are good internally and externally. Eucalyptus and cinnamon oils are apparently especially good inside the coop as a preventative against external parasites, as well as giving them access to a diatomaceous earth dust bath.

But good luck, and keep us posted.

-CK