new bud, help me bloom

Hi everyone,
I would like to ask for your opinions, thoughts, experience, and ideas on land purchase matter that I am about to pursue.

Bear with me and let me explain where I am at. For over two weeks I have been trying to get a loan for raw/ag/bare land loan from the mega banks to credit unions. Mega banker wants 50% down, came back with refusal. Credit union said the land must be 8 acre and below before they even get out under their desk when they hear land loan to even talk to us.
Western AG Credit was the only one try to get me a loan, but came back about something ratio under writer something, something ... to which I heard was NO!

My FICO is over 780 score, only debt is my VA home loan which we have 40k equity on. 6 cars, truck, SUV is paid off. We have 100% down on the raw land. We follow some practice of Dave Ramsey, Howard Clark advises. So institution banking and lender out of the question and wasted my time and efforts so far. I am looking into owner finance or outright cash purchase on the land. Both of us work full time. With my wife income alone, she already pre-qualified for another house for over $68,000 or purchase automobile! Which we don’t want to invest in. Lender promise to lend out qualified people to get the market flowing like they promise on the bail out right?!
This is what I can search and gather:
1. I need real-estate lawyer to look through paper works.
2. Check out county assessor of covenant, HOA.
3. Water right is precious as land in the second driest state in America, I bookmark the Gov. Website. NASA looks for water and ice for seeking another life form, and life require water so on… did I mentions water is very important for life and growing things?
4. Register and read up on PDC, Survival podcast, Permies.com, permaculture.org.au, PDF files on homestead, permaculture, Hugelkulture, Back to Eden, Gia as much as I can. Trying to show that I have done some homework, before just asking for help.


GET ON WITH THE FLIPPING QUESTION AREADY! Ok, I know, took a long time reading it, imagine typing it.
Seller finance, how to, what to look for, pitfall.
1.) I have never buy land before much less owner finance.
2.) What do some due diligent?
3.) Anyone experience with Utah law, rule, and regulation. Know any good land real-estate lawyer in Utah that specializes in this.
4.) I need the land survey.
5.) I need title and insurance.
6.) How to negotiate on price and interest, or do I want to try with it being owner finance?
7.) Ask of road access year round, and easement?
8.) Ask about utility, water rights, septic tank.
9.) Willing to give 50% down to get better owner finance? While seller only asking for 20% down.
10.) Is there some kind of setup like escrow payment, so to ensure monthly on time payment so owner can’t use some kind of underhanded excuse to take back property or when he sell the deed that the payment never got to the right party?
11.) Put in that I can pay early or pay in full on the loan without penalty?
12.) Hire my own real-estate agent or use the current on that is representing the seller?


Here are the lands I am looking at:
http://www.landandfarm.com/property/Agricultural_Holden_UT-478514/
http://www.landandfarm.com/property/Agricultural_Holden_UT-478513/
http://www.landandfarm.com/property/Agricultural_Holden_UT-478515/
http://www.landandfarm.com/property/Agricultural_Nephi_UT-472968/
http://www.landandfarm.com/property/Agricultural_Nephi_UT-472969/


On the side note:
Once we have the land, it is a part time job 5-6 hours’ drive to get to it to do anything and only on the weekend. I am not putting my hope to high so I won’t be disappointed. Why not out-right purchase it? We want a buffer for water rights, other expense like maybe a well which start out min 15k to drill…did I mention how important I believed H2O is in the desert? Fences otherwise all the creature will munch on everything, try “Bone Sauce Sepp Hotzer”. Cover seed like legumes to build up soil quick. Tree ASAP 4-5 years to able to harvest fruits and nuts.
Maybe put I can out ads like if you want to practice homesteading or permaculture, you can use my land or co-op, or you work on it you keep 100% of profit while building my land because I am already strap for cash after purchase.
Have to figure out YouTube, Facebook, Blog, and start documenting recording and pave the permaculture for Utah state area.
Sorry for the long winded, hope you can have some insight and thanks you in advance.

I'll take a stab at some of these things.

1. Owner financing is not too bad, but it can be dangerous. Get a good lawyer ... don't use the seller's lawyer. Make sure YOU pay the lawyer in full so he works for you. Make sure he isn't the seller's cousin.
2. Get the land survey, otherwise you don't know what you're buying. Fences may not be on property lines, there may be utility (or other) easements, or any number of things that would mess you up.
3. Make sure the seller has a clear title. You'd be surprised how many times this screws you up, particularly out west where land deeds used to be transferred across a poker table.
4. If you can negotiate then negotiate. If you really want the land and aren't going to be willing to walk away then don't do it aggressively and burn any bridges. Try to feel out why the owner is selling in the first place. They don't need the land, or are they in a financial bind? There's a lot there but your position sucks. The owner holds all the cards unless you can pony up full cash.
5. If it doesn't have road access, don't buy it. Seriously, don't do it. There's a billion LEGAL ways in which you could lose full access to your own property and if you ever need to sell it for any reason then it seriously limits the sale to other people who foolishly neglected the "don't buy property without direct road access" rule.
6. You should know about water, utility, and septic tank regulations as well as any other zoning issues LONG before you ever talk to the seller. If there's any restrictions at all, I'd pass on the property and look for something else.
7. The more you give down the less you have to pay off in the future, but remember that you don't own the property until the last dollar is paid and the title is registered with the county.
8. Like I mentioned earlier, get a good lawyer to help you set up payments and such. It'll cost you maybe $200 or so for the lawyer's time and it is well worth the trouble.
9. Make sure that you can pay early or pay in full without any penalty. That should be a stipulation in the contract. Also make sure that you can completely walk away from the deal at any point. Most of the time the seller will keep the money you've paid in so far as a form of "lease payment", and that is fair, but you don't want to end up owing the remainder. The only thing that is less heartless than a bank is a private owner who thinks they have you over a barrel.
10. Do NOT use a real estate agent representing the seller. They work FOR the seller and they're not going to get you the best deal. They're going to get the seller the best deal.

Often when we buy rural property, we're buying it out in the boonies where everyone is everyone else's cousin or brother-in-law. There are webs of intrigue going back generations. The seller may have went to high school with the real estate agent and be married to the local lawyer's sister. You are an outsider. Some small rural communities think taking an outsider's money is fair and just. Some won't feel any compunctions at all about swindling a "city slicker". Protect yourself.

Good luck.

1. Owner financing is not too bad, but it can be dangerous. Get a good lawyer ... don't use the seller's lawyer. Make sure YOU pay the lawyer in full so he works for you. Make sure he isn't the seller's cousin.
Q.) In full? by the hours? consultant? show the Lawyer after when we choose and like the land correct? Pay Angie list to find a "good lawyer? or these people are ok?
http://www.joneswaldo.com/departments/real-estate


2. Get the land survey, otherwise you don't know what you're buying. Fences may not be on property lines, there may be utility (or other) easements, or any number of things that would mess you up.
Q.) After the agent on the above site show us the land we want. then seek out surveyor, correct? should we as owner to pay maybe half for the survey, we'll give him all the document for his benefits to?


3. Make sure the seller has a clear title. You'd be surprised how many times this screws you up, particularly out west where land deeds used to be transferred across a poker table.
Q.) the Lawyer above check this out also or we have to find like a title company to research it for us?


4. If you can negotiate then negotiate. If you really want the land and aren't going to be willing to walk away then don't do it aggressively and burn any bridges. Try to feel out why the owner is selling in the first place. They don't need the land, or are they in a financial bind? There's a lot there but your position sucks. The owner holds all the cards unless you can pony up full cash.
Q.) the smaller price above we prob can pay in 100% cash and clean us out for 6-8 months to build up emergency reserve and tighten our belt to the max. or should we go for a bigger one which we can do payment on owner finance on?
this one is smaller parcel:
http://www.landandfarm.com/property/Agricultural_Holden_UT-478515/
this one is biggest with then our budget:
http://www.landandfarm.com/property/Agricultural_Nephi_UT-472968/
I know this is personal decision, what would you does if you have all these options as it were?


5. If it doesn't have road access, don't buy it. Seriously, don't do it. There's a billion LEGAL ways in which you could lose full access to your own property and if you ever need to sell it for any reason then it seriously limits the sale to other people who foolishly neglected the "don't buy property without direct road access" rule.
A.) OK, no road or access easement, then no deal, or it must be stated in the contract, right.


6. You should know about water, utility, and septic tank regulations as well as any other zoning issues LONG before you ever talk to the seller. If there's any restrictions at all, I'd pass on the property and look for something else.
Q.) Lawyer works on this? or do I have to hire a real estate agent? or go to county assessor to find out?


7. The more you give down the less you have to pay off in the future, but remember that you don't own the property until the last dollar is paid and the title is registered with the county.
Q.) Does county assessor register my name as buyer? How to prevent current owner or know that he sold the deed to someone else and if I must one payment and they can use that to repo the land? or when he die who do i pay, his spouse? Lawyer put in the contract? some form of escrow like my house?


8. Like I mentioned earlier, get a good lawyer to help you set up payments and such. It'll cost you maybe $200 or so for the lawyer's time and it is well worth the trouble.
Q.) Angie list to find good lawyer? is there a rating system that is not bias to find this good lawyer? Prosthodontist specialize in bridge and crown is there a lawyer name that specialize in land/farm/ag land? here a funny thought, should the word "good" be new to a "liar" or "lawyer" I mean? haha


9. Make sure that you can pay early or pay in full without any penalty. That should be a stipulation in the contract. Also make sure that you can completely walk away from the deal at any point. Most of the time the seller will keep the money you've paid in so far as a form of "lease payment", and that is fair, but you don't want to end up owing the remainder. The only thing that is less heartless than a bank is a private owner who thinks they have you over a barrel.
Q.) yes pay in full without penalty is good we like that. what do mean walk away? bankruptcy stated in the contract by the lawyer?


10. Do NOT use a real estate agent representing the seller. They work FOR the seller and they're not going to get you the best deal. They're going to get the seller the best deal.
Q.) don't use the real estate agent that listing the land on the web search? hire my own real agent? buy Angie list? and don't hire from same town..."Deliverance" thingy haha... that good advise.



well thank you for the spoon fed information. as you can tell I am clueless in this matter. on the good note, many people reading this in the future will learn from this. saying a total M.R. "moron" like myself can does this to should fare better, right?

thank again, please keep helping.

Lots of questions there. I'll do my best.

I can't speak to the lawyer you found, nor would I. You'll have to shop around till you find one. Get a lawyer who doesn't play golf, doesn't wear expensive suits, and has a picture of his grandchild on his desk. It helps keep them honest if they think you're becoming a member of the community or if they think you have family in the area. The lawyer may charge you a straight fee or he may charge you by the hour. I like the straight fee. Be up front with the lawyer and tell him you're short on cash. This is not a lot of effort for him and he'll likely as not pawn it off on a legal secretary to prep the documents and such. He's done hundreds of these and it'll be almost cookie-cutter, minus whatever special considerations you put in.

You can start by asking the seller to pay for the surveyor. The lawyer will know a good surveyor or you can check the yellow pages. You want the survey and you may have to pay for it. The property I ended up buying for my homestead ended up 800 feet away from where the seller thought it was. In rural country, many deals are done on a handshake between community people but you're not part of their community. You may not be able to reconcile property disputes, easements, and other problems later on as easily. Particularly if you're not living on the property.

You'll have to pay someone to run a title search. It's sometimes called title insurance. You might be able to make the owner pay this. Again, the lawyer can handle most of those details and you'd bring the money to closing. When we did mine, the arrangement was that if the title wasn't clear then I wouldn't pay and the title research company would seek their payment from the owner.

I'll have to get back to you on the different parcels. That's not an off-the-cuff response.

Again, I'll repeat ... no road access, no deal. No contract stipulations, or easements. Let's say you make a contract with the owner now that gives you access over a piece of his property. Then he dies and his kid who lives in Salt Lake City sells the property to someone else completely. That guy puts up a fence and locks the gate on it which you don't find out until you show up in the rain at night with a carload of groceries. No road access, no deal. This is my advice. It might not matter so much right now if you're not living there, but if you ever have plans to, or think you might someday have to ... then best consider it now.

Call the county and ask questions to find out about the regulations. Start with the county clerk.

As for who pays whom and how much, the lawyer can help you negotiate out a contract that is binding. I would not go into an owner-financed deal that would take me more than 5 years to pay off. Much of rural America is being sold off by geriatrics whose children have run off to the city. The property to the east of me is owned by 9 different people, none of which have ever laid eyes on it. The property to the north of me is in tax foreclosure because the grandchild who inherited it is on welfare and can't afford to buy a loaf of bread, much less pay property taxes on 50 acres of mesquite scrub that her grandfather wanted her to have. Make a rock solid contract and then get it paid off and the title in your name as fast as possible.

As for a lawyer, call them. Go sit in their office. Stare at them menacingly across the desk and see if they piddle their carpet. This is largely a "vibe" thing. If you wouldn't buy a used car from him then don't hire him as your lawyer.

If something bad happens to you financially, healthwise, or spiritually then you may be 80% paid off and not able to come through with the final 20%. You may decide to cut your losses and lose the 80% but hang on to the 20%. The contract should be written so that if that decision is made then they can't come after you for the 20%.

If you're really good at real estate deals then you can use the agent listing the land. My technique has been to go to an area and find a real estate agent, then have him or her talk to the listed agent for any properties I find (or that they find). Once I pinpointed the area in which I wanted to live then it became a lot easier.

You're very welcome. I've only done this a couple of times and I've not had the experience of getting burned. Going into it thinking you're a moron is a great way to do it. If you go in thinking you're Donald Trump and that you eat land deals for breakfast then you'll get screwed over royally. Morons who know they are morons are way more cautious and cautious morons keep their money in their pocket.

Farming is hard. It's even harder if some grandchild, neighbor, or bank comes out of the woodwork on your tenth year and lets you know that they have an easement right through the middle of your hugelkulture beds and the bulldozer will be there that afternoon.

Also find out what the yearly taxes, insurance, and utilities are going to cost you.

If you are going to build, some decisions may cost you more in insurance premiums than others.

For example, you may need to build a pond on the property to get your fire insurance premiums to a level you can live with. Ponds can be a lot of maintenance, but some times they may net you eggs from visiting ducks or geese. Ponds also attract raccoons, cougars, and possibly bears and moose, of which I am told moose will charge you and can be more dangerous than predators, but that's another story. Do you know what animals you will be dealing with on this property? Some wildlife can be destructive. On the other hand, I have a friend who was vegetarian until he moved to the country to grow vegetables. Wild pigs can be destructive and wily, but then again, if you learn to catch them, there could be advantage in that. Same with deer and elk.

If you have a well, you will have to have the water tested. Maybe it is fine, but maybe you would have to get reverse osmosis for filtering. This is expensive. You can test the soil as well.

A classic town question is what about the schools? This can also be important for resale. Schools can have a big effect on property value and possibly on tax costs as well. Low values may mean low taxes and not much in the way of school services. You are better off knowing what is going on with this.

Some rural places have granges. Some granges have periodic meetings or social events. If the nearest town has a library, you may be able to find things out about local history. Some places want new citizens, especially the kind who may contribute to town life, help out with town needs, and contribute needed skills, etc.

Also, sometimes there are rules about what you can grow. You need to know about this before you buy something. Some state ag boards will confiscate crops if they find them and they were not approved. The issue here is contamination for neighboring farmers, who may have rules to protect the crops they are growing. You also may not be able to grow certain things unless you use pesticides. I know this sounds crazy, but I was told this is true in Hood River County, in Oregon, where a lot of fruit is grown. A science teacher could not let his students grow certain things because it would have been required to spray them at certain times of the year, and the class wanted to be organic.

Oregon has an ag board that produces a big book about the things grown for market in Oregon. I do not know if Utah produces a book like this, but if they do, you should be able to find it from the state or with the help of a librarian. If the market for a certain crop is saturated with too many other farmers growing the same thing, it is better to know that you may just be growing that to eat. On the other hand, if there are upscale restaurants and grocery stores that need certain fancy things grown for them, that is good to know as well.

If you have certain trees on the land, you may have certain mushrooms, or if you are really lucky, you might have truffles. These can be pretty high value, and they enrich your soil.

The Earthship site has been compiling a list of counties that are friendly to environmentally responsible building. You would think everybody would be happy for this in these times, but alas, it is not so. Permitting and other fees can be expensive and time-consuming to get, or not. It just depends.

It is a big adventure. You will learn a lot in any event.

1.) Taxes for 40 acres = $100, and 20 acres = $50 per year, really low price.
2.) Pond is way down the road, and I need to check on water right if I can keep it. 1 AF (Acre Foot) water right goes for $4500-$5000. Water right is as valuable or more then land here in Utah, that why I am looking hard at the one that give 1AF with the land to get the land rolling, you can buy more from the farmer he usually have 200-300AF.
3.) Animal and wildlife here you need to put in for a draw of lottery to able to hunt them, even if they are on you lands. Lots of Arizona, Idaho and surrounding states are coming to Utah for jobs. Provo city is rated as low cost, high jobs area to live. So the wildlife is kind of scarce, there are deer and elk here. That why I am trying to get seller finance so I can have left over for well and fences. If not I will pay 100% for smaller parcel. In my opinion, the wild life is going for my GMO farmer then my land because their land is so large to fence in, and it is easy picking. Click one of the lands and zoom out and see the AG land.
4.) Plan for the long future as follow. Buy couple cheap trailer like these, lots around here in this state. Put it on my for my friend, family, or WWOOFER then as the land build up, and also my income then maybe cob home, or energy effect home. That 6-10 years down the road. Otherwise use these trailers for now. They go for $1600-5000. Here a sample.

http://www.ksl.com/?nid=218&ad=21796987&cat=434&lpid=&search=

http://www.ksl.com/?nid=218&ad=21272946&cat=434&lpid=&search=


4.) Utah let you grow anything here, since you can’t grow much of anything in the 2nd driest state in America. They got issue to worry about then myself let me give you some examples. Tooele city is where they send to incinerate armory weapon and nerve gases, they have couple of alarm and evacuation multiple times, and goes on the media say it ok, they got it under control. But my leg wants to get up and run. Now “Energy Solution” come in and paid and convinced all the big wig that we should dispose of radioactive waste here? And I my leg want to get up and run. This state now disposes of nuclear waste, Good Times. My time frame to leaving this state is 6-10 years, just waiting for house market to pick up a little. Winter inversion air announcement say certain days you should stay indoor because of the bad air quality…and what hold our breath? This permaculture/homesteading/self-reliance is a transition for me to be independence.

Thanks for all the helps so far, I am working on it and see how it goes. Will keep you all updated.