Training a young Asian persimmon

Hello! Today I trimmed this little Saijo persimmon behind my barn. I am letting it develop some low scaffold branches and will select for some higher on the tree. In the first attached photo (overall limb view) see the branch on the left: I want to turn the low, lateral shoot into that branch's leader and ultimately remove the two upright leaders. Note this branch's base, showing it became codominant, almost the size of the tree's leader.

So far, my cuts have just been large heading cuts to the two upright branches, one the former leader and one fighting it for dominance (see closeup photo).

So you might wonder why I didn't just go ahead and take them off, and that is my question. Should I? I am trying to decide. Taking them off now would result in a large, awkward wound, I think. It would be like heading a sapling or majorly cutting it back to the lateral, but don't orchardists do that all the time?

By heading the branches but waiting on cutting the stem, I hope to slow their growth and thereby shrink the trunk-like branch section below them. The idea is to reduce the wound when I take them off. If the headed branches go wild, I can head them again this summer. But will that work is my second question?

would an open vase trimming be more appropriate?  I want to keep mine so I can pick by hand. But then again I have many so I want variety and not quantity.

Not sure, Dennis. But I prefer central leader because it's more familiar and I think it's stronger. Also, in this spot I want some height for a screen. This form may not be quite as ideal for fruit, I realize.

But actually my question would be the same. Is it okay to leave the two headed branches and try to shrink their stem in relation to the branch's new leader and the tree's trunk, or would cutting them off with a heading cut below them be preferable?

If I mentally move that whole branch upright like it's a sapling, the lower heading cut, reducing the branch to the new leader, doesn't seem as major as it does when I think of it as a big branch with a weird structure.

I don't know how strong the branches are on this variety, but our Fuyu takes a beating from the wind and we lose a couple of branches almost every year. It's most susceptible in the autumn as the fruit are starting to put on some size and the leaves are still attached. The tree is in one of the most sheltered spots on the property but I think it's the turbulence that gets it. As fruit trees go these seem a bit delicate to me...our apples, pears. cherries and plums out in the more exposed orchard get more  wind and suffer a lot less breakage.

All this is to say that having good structure is likely to be important if you get any windy weather during the growing season. Don't let any weak crotches form, and don't let new branches get too long to keep leverage to a minimum.

Thanks, Phil. Your comment reminds me of seeing a nice, big Asian persimmon on Youtube that lost a massive limb because it had so much fruit and got hit by wind. The owners were clearly gardeners, probably busy with other things, and their long-established tree needed help.

I have asked an orchardist about reducing the length of scaffold branches for this reason, but he didn't seem to know what I was talking about. My question on this forum is simple, but it does go to the underling issue of strong structure you mention.

I'll try to attach a photo of the overall tree.

Phil Stevens wrote:I don't know how strong the branches are on this variety, but our Fuyu takes a beating from the wind and we lose a couple of branches almost every year. It's most susceptible in the autumn as the fruit are starting to put on some size and the leaves are still attached. The tree is in one of the most sheltered spots on the property but I think it's the turbulence that gets it. As fruit trees go these seem a bit delicate to me...our apples, pears. cherries and plums out in the more exposed orchard get more  wind and suffer a lot less breakage.

All this is to say that having good structure is likely to be important if you get any windy weather during the growing season. Don't let any weak crotches form, and don't let new branches get too long to keep leverage to a minimum.

I think your instinct is correct here. Keep those scaffold branches on the short side and they will respond by thickening. More importantly, the union with the leader will strengthen as well (the all-important "ball and socket"), and when the tree starts bearing that extra wood will help carry the load.

The other thing to keep in mind is that persimmons tend to put on lots of leaders and their habit often gets a bit whippy. This could be an adaptation to their general brittle nature: lots of replacement growth for the inevitable breakage. So once you've got the basic structure established, treat the productive branches as renewable (replaceable) assets. Sort of like a modified pollard, just not taking it all the way back to the trunk and not all at once.