Fruit tree distance

We’re in the process of designing our orchard. We’re thinking of a concept food forest style but with more distance between the trees. We’re about a Zone 8, SW Oregon at 3000ft elevation.
We realize we have to plant further apart than in a standard Food Forest, but would like to use gild concepts. What is a good way of estimating a healthy distance between the different species - trees, berry bushes, herbs etc. ?

Hi Dorit!  You share the same name as my daughter - her middle name, that is.  I love it and its origin!

About the fruit trees, we purposely chose dwarf trees (or semi) so that we would be able to access fruit throughout.  After selecting our finds, we planted all of them fourteen feet apart - in 3 rows of 5 trees each row (yes, that's how many we have!).  At our old house we actually planted them much closer, about half the distance, and each tree seemed to hold its own without "crossing" into other trees' drip lines or whatnot.  We just wanted to make sure we had more space this time so that we could create guilds underneath each tree circle and so far, the idea is working (3 years in).

Curious to see what others think, too.

Dorit,

Fist of all I always select standard rootstock that gives well anchored trees, with potential for drought resistance. They will live long and establish a heritage orchard with potentially best tasting fruit.
Originally I planted all trees on traditional 10 x 10 m square grid. I wanted to dry farm them, but it was failing in my climate. I decided to set up an irrigation system to help the trees establish themselves. Trees do grow in my area, but they need solid help in first few, most difficult years.

Then I decided that if I'm already irrigating then why not to try species that I would not normally consider, so I added plums and sour cherries and planted them within existing rows, but with 5 m spacing. They really do well.
This year I decided to add rows between existing rows, but shift the trees by 5 m in relation to the existing neighbors in original rows, so now I have trees on square grid with 7.07 m spacing (the distance from the corner to the center of 10 x 10 m square).

This way I will have a chance to create a canopy of tree crowns in years so I will get shade and moisture retention for future food forest expansion.
So now the distance between my rows is 5 m, so I can still bring my tractor and till competing spring grasses and weeds.

I finally discovered that grapes do well here but not all cultivars. Next year I'm going to add a grape in each 10 m space between trees. This way I can add over 50 grapes on drought tolerant rootstock.

Trees that I plant on 10 m spacing (now reduced to 7.07 m):
-pomegranates
-olives
-apples on standard rootstock
-pears on standard or 97% rootstock
-mulberries
-pistachios
-chestnuts
-walnuts
-American persimmons

On 5 m grid I plant:
-sour cherries
-plums
-almonds
-Manjurian apricots
-quinces
-sweet cherries
-figs
-peaches
-medlars
-shipovas

On 5 m grid I'm going to add:
-jujube
-Mexican hawthorn
-Cornelian cherry
-Asian persimmon

If I planted grapes only I would do them on 3 m grid.
In the future future I may add some berries (blackberries and gooseberries) between grapes and trees.

Mimi - Thank you! What’s the estimated canopy size of your trees? Probably around 15ft? Sorry they would touch each other a bit?
And funny with the name! There’s not that many out there. 😅

Thank you Cristobal!

I hadn’t thought about the better drought resilience of standard sized trees. That’s a great tip!

Our orchard is located on a hill, so sadly I can’t use squares to place the trees, but your info gives me a good idea. Maybe I was overthinking, I was going to look up the estimated tree size for each tree and then go by that.
My main question is - how much room do I plan in between a canopy tree to still get some light through for the understory species?

Dorit,

I'm not worrying about canopy size now - it's something that will happen in the future. I can always trim an excess, but I can not make the tree to be wider per my wish. Also, I have so much sun that even a spot that is partially shaded from all sides will get more sun and heat than other places in the full sun.

Also, if you have a steep slope, try to make your rows along the contour lines. If you decide to till, you can do contour tilling to better preserve moisture and if you build swales and later decide to add irrigation, the hoses will not obstruct the swales or the tractor movements. Also on steeper slopes, irrigation lines along contour fed from main line going up the slope, work better than irrigation lines going individually up the slope from the main line on the bottom. I have the latter setup, because I needed the main line to get to my garden area 90 m away from the well, but I think I would prefer the former, because sometimes I feel that the trees at the top of my orchard are getting less water, despite using pressure control emitters and my slope is only 3%.

For layout of my orchard I used a transit on the tripod, levelling rod an a long tape measure, plus rebar stakes with mason line. Nicely laid orchard brings harmony to the property, functionality and satisfaction.

If all you have is a 1/4acre city lot (100ft by 100ft). And you are just planting along the fence line, then I would put each plant 10ft away, for around 30 different species.  And for plants that require two plant to produce because they aren't self-fertile like pawpaw, I put two trees in one hole, I like to think of it as grafting on a male and female onto one "rootstock/hole-stock" . If I was in the desert and grow along the perimeter of a creek-bed/stream I would use the same 10ft spacing.

If I have over an acre+ of "orchard/food forest" I would plant them very closely in rows where they are touching at maturity. So for semi-dwarf every 15ft. But the spacing between rows. I world do 2x spacing aka 30ft, so that there is enough airflow, esp on the humid eastcoast.

If I had 5+ acres I would do silvo-pasture aka oak-savanna style. And use full height 30ft trees. Where the spacing between the trees in the row is 30ft, and space/pasture between roows world be 100ft.

My line of plants would follow this pattern for the most part. Nitrogen-fixer(think adler/etc), Exotic-Asian (jujube, etc), Rose family -European (Apple-Pear, Plum-Peach, etc), Natives (Paw-paw, elderberry, etc), Nuts (Chestnut, hazelnet, Walnut, Pistachio, etc) aka 20% from each group.

During establishment I would plant alot of extra Nitrogen-fixers between the trees , maybe every 5ft. And then kill then as the regulard plants need more space.

Thank you Bengi!

We have a bit of a mix, just not the city lot. The area I’m planning for right now is about 100ft by 200ft, but is just the start. So I would go with your recommendation of over an acre and plant everything that doesn’t fit in the next section.

In SW Oregon we’re in a rather dry climate with very dry summers, a good amount of moisture during spring.

Eventually we can expand and go silvo pasture style, but we need to spend some time on building houses before we can take that project on.

S Bengi wrote:

During establishment I would plant alot of extra Nitrogen-fixers between the trees , maybe every 5ft. And then kill then as the regulard plants need more space.

Do you have a recommendation for some nitrogen fixers for poor soil (hill top) in an semi arid environment. I have several potted comfrey plants, but would love to get more in the mix.

Base-Nurse Species-Legumes for Ochard/Pasture
TREES: Alnus glutinosa (Alder), Elaeagnus angustifolia (Autum Olive), Chamaecytisus palmensis syn. proliferus (Tagasaste, also know as Tree Lucerne )
SHRUBS: Acacia cyclops, A. longifolia, A. melanoxylon, Cytisus scoparius (Scotch Broom)
HERBS: Dalea candida (White Prairie Clover), Astragalus cicer, Medicago sativa, Trifolium repens

If you plant along the perimeter of that half acre plot, that would be 55plants. Thats alot of plants. I wonder what your plant list will look like. Here is a prior post of mines that you might find useful: https://permies.com/p/1855723

Dorit,

Two more advices:
If you have burrowing rodents, plant the trees in baskets with 1/2" openings.
Unless you know what grows well in your proximity, first year plant 2-3 trees of each species and then you will be able to decide which ones really like your place.

Cristobal Cristo wrote:
I wanted to dry farm them, but it was failing in my climate. I decided to set up an irrigation system to help the trees establish themselves. Trees do grow in my area, but they need solid help in first few, most difficult years.

Then I decided that if I'm already irrigating then why not to try species that I would not normally consider, so I added plums and sour cherries and planted them within existing rows, but with 5 m spacing.

Cristobal, is dry farming still an option once all the different species get established,  or is it no longer possible because of the varieties that you planted?

Thank you so much for all the detail. I live in the Sierra Nevada Mountains up near Redding so it was helpful hearing how a "neighbor" was approaching things.

Oscar Daniels wrote:Cristobal, is dry farming still an option once all the different species get established,  or is it no longer possible because of the varieties that you planted?

So far I know that without any water pomegranates and olives can survive on my land. Once the pomegranates bloom (for me it's late May) and do not get any water they will drop the blossom and no fruits will develop. Even if the fruits will develop, they will be dropped without watering. After my 1000 mm of rain last winter olive tree had a lot flowers, like never before and I will see if there will be any olives this year.

I have a feeling that my 9 year old pistachios would survive without water and can not tell how it would affect the harvest, because they did not produce a single nut yet.

Out of 300 grape rootstock I had, that were not watered enough only two survived (St George and 110 R) and do not care about any water, but I know that with water they would grow faster and bigger.

Another tough species is bitter almond I planted from seeds. it can take a lot of abuse - lack of water, being grazed by sheep. I'm planning to graft it with sweet variety.

The answer for other species I may have in several years, but I don't think I want to get to the point of being able to know this answer, because it would mean that I would have to stop watering to see what happens and if such drought tolerant species as pomegranate, originating from similar climate, drops the fruit with no water then less tolerant would surely also do. I will definitely water much less once all trees develop.

If you have any other questions about any details I will gladly help.