Just a silly question: are Quakers permie?

Having never met any, Would people of the Quaker Faith (if thats what its called, apologize if not) be permies, they seem to live the simple life?

I guess I don't see why they would not.  Is there something interesting you know?

not realy just saw tv show a while awhile ago, and was interested in how they live and the bush skills they have , the furniture makeing was impressive
can anybody recommend any books about their philosophy, as the only ones iv'e ever seen focus on pictures of furniture and barns without any meaningful descriptions on how they are made, would also like to find out more on their farming practices

Ah, just wondering if you meant "Shaker" rather than "Quaker" ??
The Quakers certainly believe in living lightly and have a deep respect for the earth,however the Shakers tend to live more onthe land life and are wel known for their simple,beautiful,functionl,hand crafted furniture.
suomi. ....

am fairly sure program was about quakers, dont think i've ever heard of shakers but am interested to find out more about both, different cultures and beliefs are always interesting

although they do have a simple life they generally do a lot of monocropping..so nope..probably not

organic mono cropping, is not organics one of the many fore fathers of permaculture

sure i imagine monocropping was a forfather of permaculture..but i believe it is a step in the wrong direciton myself.

before monocropping was jungle, forest and mixed praries..so when you take a step to monoculture..isn't that going the wrong way?

almost all farm lands world wide have been cleared to make room for food production for the masses, so the jungle thing is a moot point. I agree personally i would prefer to see jungle ect, but it would not feed the worlds population. even permaculture properties leave a scar on the face of earth by changing natural water flows and the long term effects are not yet known, we all like to believe that the effect will be positive, building of humus levels is surely good. The only thing in gardening/farming/land care/ management that i am truly apposed to is the use of chemicals, herbicides,  mono culture has it's place,it doe's however need better land management  imagine if every person on earth wanted to grow grains for their years supply of bread, muffins,cakes

if the world could purge Politics, Religion, Raceism and Greed then and only then would we live in the Eden they all preach about.

i'm not religious in any form it belongs in the church for the one's that are, each to their own

Do Not Worry
matthew
25"Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more important than food, and the body more important than clothes? 26Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? 27Who of you by worrying can add a single hour to his life[b]?
28"And why do you worry about clothes? See how the lilies of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. 29Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. 30If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you, O you of little faith? 31So do not worry, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or 'What shall we drink?' or 'What shall we wear?' 32For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. 33But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. 34Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.

I do not wish to offend but this thread was about the Quaker People

Can we please leave out religion, this is not the place for it
Each to their own beliefs and every one needs to respect that
Thank You

Bird

should this thread keep going on about religion i will be asking the moderators to remove/scrap it, and find books on Quakers instead

The Religious Society of Friends is a religious movement, whose members are known as Friends or Quakers. The roots of this movement are with 17th century Christian English dissenters, but today the movement has branched out into many independent national and regional organizations, called Yearly Meetings, which, while sharing the same historical origins, have a variety of names, beliefs and practices. It is therefore very difficult to accurately describe beliefs and practices of the Religious Society of Friends generally. Most groups of Friends meet for regular worship, ranging from silent meetings with no leader and no fixed plan of the proceedings, through to services led by a pastor with readings and hymns (similar to conventional church services). The theological beliefs of the different Yearly Meetings also vary, from strong evangelical Christian beliefs through the spectrum to predominantly universalist or Christian universalist beliefs.
In the public eye, Quakers are known for their social activism, having been instrumental in the campaign against the transatlantic slave trade in the 18th and 19th centuries, as well as campaigning for the rights of groups such as women, prisoners and gay people.[1][2] A number of leading charities today were founded with participation from Quakers, such as Oxfam and Amnesty International.[3]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_Society_of_Friends

Various names have been used for the Friends movement and its adherents. These include:
Children of the Light
Friends
Friends Among Friends
Friends of the Truth
Publishers of Truth
Quakers
Quiet Helpers
Religious Society of Friends
Saints
Seekers of Truth
Society of Friends


your right bird sorry

Thanks Charles, this is closer to the information i was seeking, doyou know of any links related to their farming practices

Bird

I spent the spring and summer of this year in Montgomery County, NY, smack dab in the middle of an Amish community.  I was up there to start up an organic farm.  It was a fascinating time to say the least.

About a 1/4 mile over the hill behind the house where I stayed was Lewis Yoder and his family.  I had the opportunity to meet them all.  Lewis and I became fast friends.  He is about 50 years old, his wife Elizabeth is about 45.  Two daughters, Ella and Susie in their mid teens.  4 Boys ranged from mid teens to Sammy, about 6.

They farmed 50 acres.  A couple of dozen cows provided milk, cream, and butter.  Maybe 20 pigs, 10 sheep, a flock of chicken which had the run of the place, a couple of ponies for the smaller children, a couple of full size horses for pulling the buggies.  Most impressive were the 5 draft horses.

Lewis plowed 2 acres of fields for me with 3 of his team.  When they first came by I looked up at these huge beasts and said "you don't see horses like that every day"  to which Lewis responded "we do, gotta feed em."  Lewis got the work started, his oldest boy finished the plowing.

The Amish shun technology to a great extent, not because they oppose the notion, but because it makes them dependent on others for supporting their families.  The Yoders got most of their needs off their 50 acres.  Vegetables, meat, plenty of eggs, hay, oats and corn for the livestock.  The pond provided ice, stored in the icehouse during the winter, which served them all year.  An artesian well (they lived at the bottom of the hill) provided endless water flow for the house and livestock.  Cooking was done with a Kitchen Queen 380 (I want the 480!).  The girls made bread on Saturday, I'd take 3 loaves a week at 2 bucks a loaf.  Best bread in the world.  The boys would milk the cows in the morning and evening.  Plenty of milk for the family, a couple gallons a week were sent to me, the rest was fed to the calves.  (Lewis and I went to the local livestock auction a few times-I have a truck, we brought home a calf now and then.)  Apple trees for applesauce and cider (some hard cider in the barn where the boys did not know about it).  In addition to the stove they had a pot bellied stove in the shop part of the house for additional heating.  Firewood was harvested and split in the woods around the place.  Sap was drawn from maple trees, boiled down for syrup. 

The home had no electricity.  That would require a bill and a dependency on others.  Lewis operated a saddle, tack and leather shop.  His work is impeccable.  He showed me a saddle he was making for a lady-$3000, awesome work!  For the machines used in the shop, some were hand operated, some pedal.  For a couple of the bigger machines he would fire up a diesel motor.  The motor turned a shaft running the length of the shop.  To this shaft were attached belts which ran his machines.  Before he would run the diesel motor, all connected machines would have products ready to be serviced.  Each of the boys would operate one of the machines.  When done, the motor was shut down. 

The lifestyle was simple compared to the American consumer lifestyle.  There were no electronic devices, no phone, no TV, no radio, no computer, no electric lights, no digital alarm clocks, no car.  This also means they have no cable bill, electric bill, phone bill, internet bill, gasoline, car insurance, mortgage, water bill, oil changes, windshield repair.  They don't keep up with the latest Paris fashions, pig out on Happy Meals, get their nails done, or take the poodle to the groomer. 

The girls took care of the garden, the chickens, the cooking, cleaning and laundry.  The boys took care of the horses and cows, livestock, hay and crops, fire and ice.  The women made cheese, the men built barns.  I had the privilege of going to a barnraising.  I was left in awe at the organization, it would make a military commander proud.

They have plenty to eat.  I wish you could try the pies and pastries the girls brought over.  Melt in your mouth they will!  The clothes are in good repair.  The house is warm, tidy, well ventilated and in excellent shape.  They can get from here to there as they please with buggies and wagons, ponies and horses.  There is nothing missing from their lives other than the hassle which comes with technology. 

This is a community that lives in harmony with the land and with each other.

Thanks kpeavey

What a great post, sounds like great place to be, and i reckon theses people could teach people of the organic and permaculure beliefs a thing or two

Bird

The kids go to school until the equivalent of 8th grade.  They have their own community school.  The kids walk to it, several miles for some.  The focus is on reading and writing and numbers.  I don't know much more about the curriculum.  The school is during the winter months, summers being spent making hay while the sun shines, and is only a couple of days/week.  When the boys are old enough to work, they are put to work.  They learn their father's trade by working along side him every day.  The girls work along with their mothers.

At the age of 6, little Sammy could hitch up a horse to the buggy and drive his sisters around selling bread and pastries.  The oldest boy, maybe 14, was fully able to plow 2 acres of field.  Ain't no XBox for them, I do not think they are missing out!

Its is not so much a belief system as it is a handing down of the way things are done.  They spread manure because they know it works and they have to do something with it.  Much of the way they do things is what was taught them by their parents and grandparents, who were taught by their kin.  Its communal knowledge learned by rote. 

Lewis was up one day looking to borrow a tank of air (customer with a flat tire) while I was building a worm bin.  We talked about it a bit.  I lost him when I started talking about actinomycetes and paramecium! 

I was talking with another Amish fellow, Jonas Miller.  He raised vegetables like I've never seen.  I questioned him about organic practices.  His response told me he was not particularly knowledgable about NOP rules, Organic vs Naturally Grown vs 'traditional agriculture.'  He said to me: "I'ts all organic here, but I use fertilizer, of course, and I'll spray before I lose a crop to bugs."

Miller raised about 2 dozen different crops.  Strawberries, wax and green beans, zukes, yeller squash, pumpkins, pickling cucumbers and eggplant are what I recall offhand.  He uses rows, I use beds.  He uses plastic mulch, I use hay/leaves/grass/natural mulch.  He had a drip irrigation system under his mulch.  I had not yet set up irrigation, but drip was the plan.  His crops were excellent but were far from organic.

it all sounded so good until spray's, plastic mulch when they seemed to have all else in perspective

Bird

Still you would have to live with the Amish for a log time to know the problems of their way of life. What about machism how machistic are they?
  THe first bit about the Amish sounds like the life of Almanzo Wilder Laura Ingalls Wilders husband, described in the book farmers boy, it is a book i always think of when people talk of children working, Almanzo Wilder did a lot of work on the farm and he turned out so efficient so young.
  th ebook is very interesting on how to train horses they trained them to sell to newyorkers, as carriage horses and they had to be trained not to have any bad habits. They had an ice ouse and lots of crops, cows, and a pig. It seems to me to be a book that is really worth reading if you are a permaculturist.
  The quakers took food to the irish in the potatoe famine, they were the only ones who did, the irish did not like maize though or fish that they coudl get from the sea.
  I knew a quaker woman she was nice a museum curate the mueum was small, and married to a scupture of grave statues.
  You can just stand up and talk in a quaker metting if you think that God is inspiring you, the elders get pretty cross if you talk rubbish though, someone told me, even women can, great.
  Elizabeth Fry the prision reformers father bought his daughters red boots when they were little girls , really way out, they were meant to wear grey as good quakers.
Thats all i know about quakers and i do wonder if their silentish meetings allow them to descend into religiouse seriousness so impossible to acheive in noisier services and masses. i would hav eliked the children to have had a bit of what the amish boy had as well as the tele and video games and th ebooks he didnot read that discus society and humans and thought literature. agri rose macaskie.

There are differences in their way of life that is sometimes difficult for the English (non-amish) to understand. 

The women do the cleaning. cooking, gathering-traditional womanly chores.  Some would see this as sexist.  To the amish, it is their place.  Without a good woman, the man is less.  They are equal in that the genders have duties and without each other, both are diminished.  I'm having trouble putting thtis into words as I don't fully understand it.  how about if I say the man and woman complete each other.

The woman traditionally wear black dresses and white bonnets.  Young girls may wear blue.  The men wear black pants, white shirts, suspenders and a straw cap.  Young boys may wear blue shirts.  There are exceptions, but they are few and from what I could tell, tolerated.  The exceptions were on the order of denim because it wears better in certain situations, or a dark colored, say, maroon, dress.  Monday was laundry day everywhere.  Drive along, see a clothes line:  white white white white black black black black black black blue blue blue blue.  Clothing is simple because it shows humility, before god and each other.  It also makes shopping for fabric much easier.

I remember the part of the book where Almanzo's mother made butter.  The amish make their own butter, it is to die for.  The girls make the butter.  By the age of 7 or 8, they would be competent in such a basic skill.  There is no sense of dread at mundane duties or hard work.  It is accepted as what is expected of them.  It is their place.  Try getting my brother's kid to mow the lawn.  Discipline is instilled in the children at a young age.  As a side note, my grandmother had no problems putting one of us kids outside, even in the snow, during breakfast if we were unruly, my old man would just take off his belt.  As far as abuse or negative reinforcement methods, I saw no evidence of this, for or against, so I can't speak of how the discipline is instilled. 

If you meet an amish fellow, do not hold out your hand for a handshake.  You are outside of their community.  Not exactly sure why, but they won't typically shake hands with the English.  Lewis introduced me at the barnraising, I shook many hands.  If you are accepted, you have it made, otherwise you will be looked upon warily.  The young ladies will not look you in the eye, that would be a sign of lust.  They will not speak to you unless spoken to, and then only with brief responses.  When I first arrived, I had to be out of the house on Wednesday mornings.  I made the mistake of being in the house the first Wednesday when Susie came over to do the cleaning.  A young girl, alone in a house with an English man, OH THE SCANDAL! 

In the summer, if not working in the fields, most of the amish were barefoot around the homestead.  I don't know if there is a religious reason or if they are reducing wear on their footwear.  I like to be barefoot, maybe they do too.  It is a fair bet that there is a reason for their shoeless behavior.  The lifestyle is full of tradition and purpose in everything they do, and barefeet qualifies as simple.

The men shave mustaches but not beards.  The first time I met Lewis, he was walking up from the back field.  I asked my host how old he was-about 50.  I responded "that beard is at least 60!  Then I met his wife.  The woman also do not shave their beard.  It can be a shock. 

The money is not spoken of much.  It is certainly clear that they use it.  Lewis sells his saddles, Alvin Mast sells his lumber, Miller sells his produce.  Cottage industries abound, with each family having a skill.  A guy named Rudy repaired plows and implements.  Another fellow had a machine shop where he made parts for diesel engines.  Whatever their specialty is, they charge for it.  When Lewis' boy was done with the plowing, I asked Lewis what I owed him.  He replied to the affect that he was helping a neighbor and sometime I could help him.  This was a big job, 2 acres of plowing.  It would not be right, in my mind, to not pay for this service.  I got sneaky.  "If not for you, then for the boy.  He did a man's work, he should get a man's pay."  and handed him a hundred bucks.  This seemed to go over well with him.  After that we traded about everything.  I gave him a ride, he'd send up a gallon of milk.  Charge thy customer, help thy neighbor.  I gave his wife some greenhouse plants for their garden, a pie would show up on the porch.  I stopped by to see if she needed onion sets, gave her all she wanted, I later enjoyed a vast array of pastries.

The amish don't often take employment.  That would make them dependent.  But, they will do some regular tasks-housekeeping for example.  When I needed help clearing rocks from the field, I proposed to the boys that they start their own rock clearing business and I would be their first customer.  They helped clear the rocks, but would not take any pay.  I later helped fix their hay baler and resheath a wall on the icehouse.

Frugality and Thrift.  Is it a virtue or means of getting by?  Some English guy had a bread route.  Stocked stores with bread, cakes, twinkies, hot dog rolls-commercial bakery type stuff.  Me and Lewis went over to unload his truck and load up mine with the out of date product.  My truck was loaded, make that overloaded, and another neighbor took him another day for another load.  The bread was fed to the pigs.  Cakes and twinkies that were still fine were taken to the house for consumption, along with hot dog rolls because they were having hot dogs that night.  The boxes were piled for firestarting.  The pie pans were saved for their own pie making, washed of course.  The twist ties from the bread bags were saved for their own bread.  I don't know what they did with the plastic bags from the bread, but if there was a use, they were saved.  Otherwise they probably went into the woodstove.  I did the math on the value of the twist ties, pig food, treats, hot dog rolls and pie tins.  I came up with something like $300 in value for that truckload of baked goods if they had to buy the stuff of the shelf, thats at 5 cents a pound for animal feed value.  Lewis paid something, maybe 20 bucks, I dont know.

Whats next-ah, horse training.
When the 3 horses plowed my field, 2 were older and experienced, one was young and green.  The young horse was put in the middle.  The horses knew exactly what they were doing.  The boy, I think his name was Mark, would only need to call out rarely and with simple commands, haw, gah, whoa, and the horses responded immediately.  When hooking up the plow, it was a foot short in reach.  Mark said "BACK"  The three horse, in unison, took one step back.  I was speechless.

The amish don't have a church.  They travel each week to someone's home where they hold their services, than enjoy dinner afterwards before returning home.  Next week, someone else's home.  I understand the reason for this is to maintain the community.  They'd put on their sunday best, black pants or dress, white shirt, bonnet and hat, hook up the horses to the bigger buggy and head out.  Sunday morning was what I called Amish Rush Hour.  I'd hear the clopping of the horses then look up to give them a wave and over the hill they went.  Then another and another and another.  A few hours later, they come back over the hill and clopp into the woods one after another.

in a film i thought i saw somthign a bit mean in two oldish ladies comments, mind you it was a hollywood iflm i suppose, narrow minded ? could that happen. i believe in education.
  my father in law didnot look at ladies here. He was nice had read a lot but i have known incredible grades of meaness here the puritanism in Spain is great if you really let them under your skin.
  Have you heard the idea that you shoud love your neighbor as yourself. It is a provision made to stop egoism, not egoism as in selfishness but as in i find it hard to believe others feel as poetic or as deeply as myself or that their thoughts are so complicated. Love you neighbor as somthing complimentary to yourself is to invalidate that effort to help people to understand each other made by that arch christian christ, except that i have recently only met catholics who like the protagonist of the story of the rose who talk only of Aristole instead of jesus. this is very strang efor a christan like me bought up in a protestand country used to refering every christian idea to jesus.
      How the devil are you to understand somthing different from yourself. Love the other as complimentary to yourself, is one of the many anti christ expressions, expressions  that reduce or contradict some saying of christs. It is not part of the new testament, you must be catholic, their ideas don't have to be based on some part of the new testament. Men never believe that what hurts them hurts me, they think i am different.

      The enfasis on who does what work is not really putting your fingure on the central problem of sexism.

        Have you ever been told how to manage people you employ. Have you heard rules like, dont talk to much or they might loose respect for you because you might make some mistake and they will find out you aren't always right and loose respect for you. This makes the  boss aloof and boring and really no company, it also means if it is carried into marriage, and that is what machists do, that the woman married to you often with only you for company finds you will not help her to compare and contrast opinions, she is on her own, lonely and without anygroup to talk things through with, men are bastards. ALso she is expected to have the roll in bed with the aloof person who wont alk to her.
    This behavior gives a lot of dignity to men if you whatch it, those who keep quiet look dignified, and it makes the women look stupid. Really ignoble thing, to do things that make the person you promised to love look stupid .use your companion to make you look good in comparison. Men can sure talk if they are lord mayors or presidents or some such, so  to pretend that they are naturally silent is a lie, they know how to talk if they need to.

    Women are taught to try to make a verbal relationship and men to avoid it, as the relation is as for them one in which the woman is an inferiors. The woman is educated to think this should be a mental relationship, to see love as interchange and will struggle to make it one all her life . She is going to look stupid when she tries to comunicate to someone who is not going to fall for putting himself on her level and she is not warned as a child of her position, so she just goes on trying and makes a fool of herself and continues doing it all her life . Tries to make a relation with somone who does not respond, is cultural formed so that his determination is not to respond. 
    It is so nice to be made up to and so cold to be with those that aren't trying, that women are going to make men feel loved but men will make women despair of love .

      If you are a boss you don't share information with employees , for one, on the business, do you, except that that has to do with the task of the person? That way they don't take over your business. It is mean but it keeps the business going, machism is to carry the behavior of bosses into the home .
      For the other, you don't share the sort of information that makes you admired as clever or astute. You don't talk to them as you do to your freinds sharing titbits of what you consider your most intellectual or whatever tickles your mental pride, knowledge . One reason you are the boss is because you know more can find occasions when their ignorance has made them make a bad judgement and you can say, "right am i boss, i am cleverer what they ahve just said is proof of it ". THe desire to do this also leads you to loose obectivity and be rather better at seeing the others lapses from good judgement than their abilities and good judgemnent goals and this is mean, it is to make sure you get a better positon than the other whom you are not paying and who finds it hard to llleave you because ot is marriage. If you pay them fair enough, if you married them how vile  of you, you pretended that what you offered was love.  rose macaskie.