Thought Dump Re: Starting From "Zero" In Georgia

Subject: Thought Dump Re: Starting From "Zero" In Georgia

Of course starting at "zero" is not really the right way of describing it; so yes, the title is a little cheeky.

This is a thought dump about where I live.  I imagine I will edit this a few times (as opposed to making many separate smaller posts).

Introduction & Location
I live on about 1.5 acres in 8a.  About half of this is wooded lot, with at least half of that being pine in some stage of growth.  
<here’s a map overview of the lot with some measurements>

I have two main questions in my mind with this property.  But before that, some other “facts”.

Facts
Climate & Rainfall
Annual rainfall somewhere in the 45”-50” range.
---Internet says: most months about 4”-5” of rainfall, exceptions being: April, May, September, October each closer to 2”-3”.  
---My experience: Rain is not either “feast or famine” nor “regular daily rain”.  It’s inbetween, mostly on the dry-and-deluge side.  It’s more like “a week of raining” and lots of dry inbetween and LESS like “getting a little bit of rain all the time”, though it does lightly rain quite often (half or more?) It’s just not very regular (it is regular enough that I ALWAYS ride with waterproof gear).

Lot Factors & Other Non-Negotiables
Besides weather, here are a few other necessary considerations:
Slope:
The highest-contour of the lot lies approximately parallel to the W-E road,  and runs WNW-ESE.  
---On the W side of the lot, the water primarily runs S and W of the house and eventually reaches a low S point and flows E, later SSE.  
---On the E side of the lot, surface water is limited; much follows the perimeter ditch.  What doesn’t typically goes S towards the house, which is redirected E and later SE, where it later converges with surface water-runoff from the W side of the lot.

<picture showing water flow>

Water/Utilities:
---Well water (<100’ – at one time it was ~70’ deep with ~20-30’ water but this is not regularly monitored).
---Septic
<picture for location of septic>

These things about the lot bring me happiness:
- Being able to look out the window and see trees
- Hearing and seeing that there are birds outside
- Being able to walk around with some level of isolation or privacy
- The lot does not currently require very much time from me

What I've Done Already
About a year ago I attempted to remove the above-ground poison ivy.  I feel badly because I know the berries are loved by birds and others, however, I feel a compulsion to remove this.
I’ve kept most all other vines: largely muscadine but also a few other species that I don’t remember (smaller though, with some trumpet-like flowers)
When I pick up fallen sticks and branches, I typically organize them into a neat pile (log cabin-esque) and later cover with leafy branches.  I know that critters do hang out in them, even if only briefly, with obvious signs of entry (plus seeing for myself).  I like that they are not “going to waste”
I mostly try to let interesting things grow.  That is, anything besides Chinese privet and pine.  I let plenty privet grow but it’s the lowest-priority on my list so it gets cut down quickly if it’s “in the way”

I really like being able to walk around on this land.  I have a series of interconnected walking trails.  To go out there and walk until you’ve covered each segment is easily a 15-minute walk.

<picture of map showing walking trails>

I play a musical instrument for health and for fun and enjoy attempting to walk around and play at the same time.  Good neuroplasticity exercise!

Oh Duke Of Permaculture,

This humble one seeks your counsel.  This one knows as well that your own climate is quite different than from here and that different specialized knowledge applies to different areas.  Still, in recognizance of your expertise and contribution, and in support of these aims to Build a Better World, this one nevertheless seeks your counsel.

We have some familiarity already, having experienced at least:
- Watched World Domination Gathering
- Read (and attempted to give 12 away) Building a Better World books
- Watched Hugelkultur microdoc (from World Domination Gardening Kickstarter)

I feel like I care a lot about what happens to the alive-things around my lot.  I want to learn more about taking care of those alive-things.  And I also want to make sure that my dwelling stays in good condition.  So there is a limit of course on helping the 'other' alive-things.  But you are the expert!  Please consider my questions.

So, that all said, my questions are :

Pines: if I cut some down around the house, or maybe more or all of them, is there any use I can put to them?
What is the least I can do effort-wise to get the most return out of both safety on my house and on the ability for stuff I want to grow to be able to do so?

It almost pains me to imagine cutting down all the trees.  It pains me more to think about them being cut down ‘for nothing’.  I can cut them down if I know it’s for some greater reason or greater plan.  But I don’t have that reason or plan.  This is why I’m asking you questions.

1. Berms/hugelkulturs – this is obvious to me but gives me much apprehension.
a. Using hugels as the solution to where to put the pines AND also the solution to “I wish there was more privacy with neighbors”?  Is this wishful thinking?
b. Termites are present on the plot – are hugels asking for further trouble?
c. Could also solve water problems at front of house, that is, if instead of flat there was lots of not-flat, and the low areas diverted the water.

2. Scale of changes
a. I want to be realistic with how much time and effort I will be able to put towards all this.
b. Me taking the permaculture paradise plot, and then not being able to execute, will not only be effort for nothing but it’s a lot of destruction without much rebuilding.
c. This makes me want to ask questions like: “if my first step was cutting down some of these pines, or all of these pines, or whatever”, how can I put those to use?  And can I do this while keeping my options open for larger-scale changes?

Are you anywhere near Athens, GA? I'm in Zone 8b, a pocket of Athens that's rated as such, but most of Athens is 8a. We had to have a bunch of diseased pines felled on the cheap, and we basically left most of them where they fell to rot down. We've got about 3/4 acre. We are renting, but the landlord is a friend and is giving me carte blanche to do whatever I think is best to improve the land.

I am a short seventysomething woman working by myself to develop this land. I have no heavy equipment; all I have is Mother Nature, who is actually pretty awesome in what she can do if you are patient. I started seven years ago eradicating English ivy that had climbed up into all the pines and sweetgums and undermined them. I had poison ivy, too, with twisting trunks of vines as big as a weightlifter's arms. I'm not poisoning anything now, but the poison ivy I did take triclopyr to in the first year or two, because otherwise it would have been hopeless. Now I am extremely vigilant with the ivies and pull them up whenever they try to reassert themselves. I did eliminate some wild muscadines that were not producing and choking out other things, but for the most part I've let the other stuff grow.

Pine sawyers were killing all the pines. I could hear them chewing up the trees from the inside. Bone-chilling sound! Awful! The trees were dangerous. I got somebody not insured to fell many. (When he dropped one that almost took off my neighbor's roof, we quit.) We have termites, too, but I let them do their work because they are not near the house. I'm keeping any felled wood away from the house. Plus, fortunately, my landlord has a termite inspection done every year.

I have dumped tons of wood chips and leaves on the ground. Passiflora incarnata vines come up everywhere, almost like they are invasives, but I figure they are healing the land. I pull them up in the areas I'm working on turning into "edibles" areas. I've plugged in any number of fruit trees (figs do extremely well here; half my plums and pears have died but half are making it), and I'm essentially fighting to keep the deer off of them until they are more mature, and then the guilds will go in.

Those pines, believe it or not, actually do rot down eventually. Periodically I go out with an axe and chop at them for as long as I am able to do it, and that seems to help. I've got piles that I've put black tarps over to knock back the vines (Passiflora, greenbriar now mostly) and I know there are voles and possums and other critters who take advantage of those spaces. I cut up a lot of the pine logs and turned them on end to make deer obstacles inside of the old chainlink fence on the property (this is an almost rural suburb), and I've definitely got insects drilling into them and helping rot them down.

This is all I can manage to do, but the birds must really love it because they come in droves. I've got mountain mint growing in clumps here and there, and I have never seen so many different pollinators in one place in my life! I've been able to watch the waves of this and that and the other insect come in and then be brought into balance by predators. One year the Joro spiders were everywhere...this year, not so much! Somebody is eating them for dinner....

As things rot, the soil improves. You know we have red Georgia clay. This lot had been scraped of all its topsoil so it was hard concrete-like clay pretty much, but slowly the soil is improving. I'm still working on nurturing the ecosystem, trying to bring things in balance. But this year, for the first year, after I deer-fenced a 48'x52' vegetable garden area, I have gotten more food than we can process and eat. There's still a ways to go, but when I look back and see what's been accomplished, I am heartened. The thrips and Japanese beetles ate all my fruit this year, but the trees themselves are healthy and I know it's just a matter of time before the lacewings start decimating the thrips. I used to have aphids everywhere, and they aren't a problem here anymore. The ants have moved further away from the house. I told them I was fine with them as long as they went off into the power easement and left my stuff alone!

Diane, lovely reply.  Thanks for the response.  My original is still a work in progress.  I'll add additional replies when there are updates (like the pictures).

Diane Kistner wrote:I am a short seventy something woman working by myself to develop this land. I have no heavy equipment; all I have is Mother Nature, who is actually pretty awesome in what she can do if you are patient. I started seven years ago eradicating English ivy that had climbed up into all the pines and sweetgums and undermined them. I had poison ivy, too, with twisting trunks of vines as big as a weightlifter's arms ... but for the most part I've let the other stuff grow.

Lots of energy gets stored below the soil.  Remarkable things, those vines.  For me, not totally rampant but pretty similarly "bad" at least with the poison ivy.  I figure I want to do as little possible to achieve my end result.  My end result has been to have a series of walking trails so that I can get familiar with the different parts of the property and think about what changes might be worthwhile to make

Diane Kistner wrote:Pine sawyers were killing all the pines. I could hear them chewing up the trees from the inside. Bone-chilling sound! Awful! The trees were dangerous.

That sounds horrifying.  I do not think I have this issue here.  I just think: in the 10, 20, 30 years time horizon, what kind of risk am I running with big pines within striking distance of the house?  The big ones are right at the edge (of course, because they're leaning away from the canopy...)

Diane Kistner wrote:Those pines, believe it or not, actually do rot down eventually. Periodically I go out with an axe and chop at them for as long as I am able to do it, and that seems to help.

They appear to be breaking down pretty well.  I monitor this because I've rearranged fallen limbs and trees to be the border of my trail.  The pine gets wet and rots down pretty good.  Or appears to at least.

Diane Kistner wrote:But this year, for the first year, after I deer-fenced a 48'x52' vegetable garden area, I have gotten more food than we can process and eat. There's still a ways to go, but when I look back and see what's been accomplished, I am heartened.

Congratulations!  Many trees have I "protected" only to be dismayed that the deer nibbled aggressively on them.  I'm not sure it makes sense to try and grow without a deer solution.  Oh, but how wonderful would it be to have an assortment of fruit and nut trees!

I’m making biochar from my pines, but it is a lot of work, see link below for more detail.  

A few things I would do before initiating any design plan:

Drive around and see what seems to be doing well in the area (pecans?). Stop and talk to folks with fruit/nut trees in the area.  Ask if they produce and if they spray.  I do this often and always well received.  Sometimes even take home some food.

Call the county extension agent and ask for info on soil tests.  They are heavily subsidized in my state, maybe in GA as well.  Also ask for recommendations on what grows well in the area without too much care.

I’ve wasted a lot of time trying to grow things that were just never going to work in my climate without significant management (apples, peaches, cherries, grapes, and probably a few more).  Hopefully this will help you do a bit better.

I think I fail at forum-ing.  I assumed I could edit my post and maybe I may.  But I find that I can't.  Maybe it's time-gated.

So here's a re-do:

The map has north straight up.

The lot is predominantly south-facing.  There are no significant neighborly concerns in that if I wanted to cut every tree down in the lot (which I really don't think I do), I could.  If I wanted to build giant hugels or berms, I could.  I guess there's the logistics and cost and all that.  But nobody is going to tell me I can't.  And the immediate neighbors (only two) are on reasonably good terms.

Picture 1 - lot measurements (in feet).

Picture 2 - presence of concrete (basically the driveway and around the perimeter of the house; these serve part walkway and on the north and western side as water troughs).  The concrete on the northwest represents a concrete pad that the well is situated in/on.   It hasn't run dry in the past 5 years.  Closest is a time I was a big dummy and used too much and started pulling silt/clay which I assume means the level was getting low.  I suppose I don't know that for sure.  Maybe it came from the water heater.  But we have neighbors who irrigate with what seems to be reckless abandon.  Anyway.  I try to be mindful of not wasting and my personal guilt is a bigger barrier (probably) than how fast it re-fills.

Picture 3 - general movement of surface water.  The northern and eastern section of the lot is a ditch abutting the roadway (this is not a through-road so traffic is limited to the several dozen other houses, residents, traffic).  If it rains a lot we get some significant surface water - the front yard has an old trench dug (possibly french drain) and I've slightly dug out some other areas just to make sure the low points lead away from the house as best I can.

Picture 4 - I've made walking trails the past few years, these are not permanent and of course can change, however, I include this to give you an idea of what I enjoy about the lot (being able to be around other alive things, at least, benign alive things, and have some modicum of privacy and being able to walk around).  I've cared about that so much that I've "made" a place to walk around.


I'll get some other pictures - I have a bunch of videos but those are not easily-digestible as much as photos are.

The trees are about half pine, everything else is pretty small  (less than 2' diameter trees) although there are some larger trees, those are mostly sweet gum.

The septic is immediately east of the house (you can see a small clearing)

The slope is mild on the west of the lot (probably less than 10' per 250', maybe less than 5' per 250') and more pronounced on the far-east side (probably anywhere from 10'-15' per 170', however, at the southernmost-property line it's ALMOST the low point (it gets about 5' lower to the south and that's as low as it gets)

Restating Of Questions

1.  There are likely 10-30 trees, almost all pine, that are prime candidates for being cut down.  I know that's a big range.  No professional has advised me of this number.  It's just a guess looking at the perimeter of the wooded area and seeing what looks tall and scary and within striking distance of the house.  I use "scary" somewhat jokingly.  In my mind, if I think decades out, it's an eventuality that one will fall.  But what direction?  And when?  And how many?  So I play the risk game and wonder - if these trees got cut down, what could be a good use for them?

2.  The other question is: what's an example design that would accommodate growies that are useful for humans?  I have great trepidation to make large scale changes.  It feels like a stable ecosystem at the moment which is to say the canopy is established and the underneath stuff grows slowly (great for me, better than too fast...).  And I hate the idea of tearing something up and either having a poor plan or poor execution and destroying something for nothing.  I want to be conservative when I estimate how much time/energy/etc. I will devote to any plan because I really don't want to make a change and fail.

video reference provided by John:

Thank you for sending me a copy of building a better world in your backyard

You're welcome!  Also it was good to listen to the podcast version of the consult.  I'm not yet in the "nuts and bolts" phase of the site design so the consultation being very "idea" and "feelings" based I think worked out very well.

I've been thinking a lot (and also I've been gone for a week) and so my current planning is I think going to be in stages:

Stage 1 - water diversion from the house.  Currently the slope of the earth is resulting in runoff being directed orthogonally at the front of the house.  I do not know where dirt will come from but I am planning to build a berm-y space in the front which will create a bit of a V or trench of sorts (without digging down so much) to direct the water elsewhere.  I am contemplating making that berm kind of hugel-y because why not (termites I guess).  But also, this area will benefit a LOT by absorbing water.  So more growies and more soil will itself help, let alone the grading/earthworks.

Stage 2 - oh my god the trees.  I am emotionally coming to terms with cutting down trees.  Oh, so many trees.  The good news is that the trees are mostly where I want hugels to be.  So maybe I just cut them down, let them lie, and do the standard "trench" in front of the hugel to layer dirt, then put more trees.  I feel like I should get some hands on experience before doing this myself.  And I need to make a timeline like: week 1 - do the hugel-ing.  week 2, 3, etc. etc., to make sure I understand my time commitment.  I am somewhat afraid of the soil drying out when exposed to much more sun.  But perhaps this is a good winter project (I don't know, maybe cutting trees down in the winter is a bad idea).

Stage 3 - fencing.  I'm hopeful I can make a junkpole fence.  I have a neighbor with bamboo.  I wonder if he wants some free "help" cutting that down.  That's a junkpole fencer's dream!  But I am not so sure about the heat and humidity.  I think "rot season" is really long where I am (ha ok it definitely is).  And I am not sure how to make the bottom of the fence dry.  I would have to bring in rocks or gravel.  Maybe I just use a lot of pine straw that is already here.  And maybe that dries it out some.  I don't know.  I don't even know how big my fence can get (I would like to do 1000' perimeter but that is also a lot of material).

I think probably.......... I should fence after the trees come down?  I imagine an excavator/etc. is going to run the risk of destroying or pushing down the fence if I do that portion first.  And it will be some time before the growies are in serious danger of deer grazing.  Perhaps enough time to make a fence.

What if you do a few experimental sections of fence now so you can observe what happens to it? You could do one with gravel, one with pine straw, etc. and see which materials work the best. Then when you're ready to build a big fence you'll have a better idea of what you want to do, plus some practice under your belt.

Celeste,

I'm flattered you took the time to post and make a suggestion on my thread!

In the meantime I have realized that my priority before new things is to attend to needful things on my current abode.  So that means water and drainage issues.

I lined up an opportunity where I volunteered on someone's property to do some work with heavyish equipment, in exchange for learning how to use it.  I think there is a good chance I can borrow that equipment.

At the very least I will be trying to do some trenching or ditching.  That will give me some spare dirt/soil.  So I will be able to build perhaps a hugelkulture of some sort.

This will accomplish both the needful, plus some personal learning, plus some action towards a bigger vision.

It will also help me see how much one person can really do.  I suspect I will need to get some help one way or another.