Water Recovery

Found this free ebook download, may be of interest to some

www.waterparadigm.org/

an interesting read that brings out some good questions

Hope you enjoy

Just finished reading this plus Al Gores version on same subject

Guess what most permies are already doing it, add humus, plant trees, slow down water run off.
I wonder how many millions went into this study- they could of saved a fortune by just asking a permie!

  I think divulgation is really important, the more books the merryier think of how many books there are on gardening all very similar and each one has some titbit that makes it unique. It is really important to get the word out and that is done by books, cheap books and expensive books, some people don't trust cheap ones and by other ways of gettign stuff out panflets, television programs, the garden girl for instance .
      When they started things like trade unions they did an awfull lot of work spreading the word, talking, in lectures and in books and such sending people round to villages to talk about it in pubs and they did it they got the word out and move d people to fight for it, it is possible, even though the main businesses dont want it, but i should think it would not be if anyone doubted the need to spead the word in all possible forms. That is not to say that it is not also necessarty to have people practricing it it is .
     One person has one valuable divulgation idea and another another and that gets the word spead, lots of heads are better than one and lots of books etc. it is the same with the premaculture ideas all the permaculture¡ists have made permaculture more full. Lots of divulgators get the work of getting the word round better than a few.  agri rose macaskie.

I think what Rose is saying is people, like horses, learn thru repitition.  Understanding things best when we see them from several angles, from many sources.  With words we understand.

Yes?

WHat jennifer says is really true, it is maybe one of the bad things about school teaching, you learn from one book in school. If we trusted the first person who said something we would not have survived as a race. Saying obey your parents is also stupid we would not have survived as a race if we just trusted and obeyed without some queswtioning .  We need to hear several people say things i do my mind refuses to memorize what i am not sure is right.
      You can get several people telling the same lie but still its easier to learn from several books saying the same things. Also books do have some detail or other quiet a lot of deatials uñsually, that make them different from each other. Anyway people think books are all perfect, there are mistakes in books i found by reading other ones on the same subject, so reading lots stops you from getting misinformed.

    That is another thing about school, at the lower levels at anyrate, it does not teach you to have a critical attitude to texts books and that makes them hard to read ,when they are badly written and hard to understand you think its your fault instead of the books fault. Its easier to read a hard book if you accept that you have to work out what a daft writer is making hard to understand and sometimes the only way to find out is to puzzle out what a bad writer is on about because it is the only book on htat subject, instead of feeling guilty about the problems you are having with it, it makes you attack the problem of reading it more sensibly.
    Lots of books does make for better coverage though some people are attracted to one cover an dsome to another and some like one style an dphotos and some another.
    Also knowing books don't get everything right encourages you to write. agri rose macaskie.

Rose Macaskie

so you believe that human kind pumping the oceans full of nutrients and fresh water is ok (i'm leaving out the chemicals at this point)
the earth is like you and me, in needs water and nourishment,
if you think permaculture is going to save the day on its own you are sadly mistaken, most home gardeners make compost to some degree, yes even those that use chemicals, large mono culture farms use swales, all organic and permaculture growers do their best to return nutrients to their soils and to retain moisture levels by the building of humus (Soil)
The two publications i mentioned both agree that water retention is paramount for the survival of humans, Al Gors's also mentions CO2, both factors are involved with warming both are addressable issues, by simply retaining water on the land without pollution and by increasing vegetation - trees hold carbon and filter water- and slowing business's pollution
The large urban areas need to stop pumping everything into the oceans, they are sitting on substances that do not allow water penertration and then push any runoff away, without the concrete, ashfelt at least some water would penertrate, pavers would even be a better option , grass even better.
You mentioned other publications you have read, please share the titles and i will read them as well.

Sorry but a dry earth is a doomed earth, and it's all caused by consumptionism and greed - the search for the mighty doller

    I should not say no like that i get too emphatic, our family were pretty lively talkers. I meant divulgation of the word, the information, not water though i am not sure that it would have been bad if i had meant water .
  You said people could just ask a permaculturist, i said or meant to say books are important too because people don't always meet a permaculturists, I did not know permaculturists  existed till some mounths ago and i know a bit about organic and go to book shops on gardening and such and whatch documentaries, so it certainely seems that a lot of publications are needed so people know pppppermaculture exist. Divulgative writing is about writing what has been written already so that it reaches more people.
     Think how often we hear bits of news and also how many opinions we hear on each bit of news.  Could we believe the news if we did not have lots of people cofirming the news and reveiwing it and such. It might not make it truer but it makes it easier to believe.

      If others study this sort of thing, they might find other answers as well as permaculture ones, more ideas is better than less.
       I thought from learning the bit i have learnt about permaculture that maybe puddles, uneven bits of ground hold water and so let it permeate slowly and also so the water in them does not run straight off the land, i htought that puddles stop it going so quickly into the water ways and down to the sea.
     The bit of writting posted here by you confirms permaculture ideas and that their ideas are proved by other thinkers means they are backed up by others, i was glad to read it it filled in on some things i wasnot sure about. It is  no bad thing, it confirms permaculture findings, it gives them more weight, it helps to win new people over to permaculture.
      When everyones talking aobut it the work will be half done.

     I thought puddles might be good because of Bill Mollisons story of a american Bob Dickson who makes dents in the arizona desert, which desert was created by over production of cotton.

       The dents hold water in them, this held water soaks better into the soil than water on the flat i don't understand why but trail and error seemm to prove this. Blown seeds will blow  into the hollows and get trapped in them as will rabbit droppings etc., so the seeds in the dents have a good supply of water and manure to germinate with.
       He turned the desert into a meadow making small hollows in the ground. Its really worth whatching. the video is bill mollisons "dryland permaculture strategies Pt 3"-  agri rose macaskie.

yes puddles can be good, they hold water for slow seepage into the ground or for evaporation into atmosphere, on the other hand humus rich soils will absorb the water and hold it in the ground, both systems work, i prefer the latter
An example - Jennifer has posted she has a puddle in front of her barn, this is a problem puddle as it affects her daily routine, so she needs to drain this puddle and fill it in.- what caused the puddle in the first place, is it roof run off, water flowing to a low spot, or just an indentation caused by regular traffic flow in the area? one needs to find the cause to ultimately fix the problem, this puddle could be solved by draining and backfilling, or it could just be filled with gravel leaving the water in place, but i assume horses don't like to walk on gravel so this will leave the first option. on my property when i get puddles on pathways i use the gravel method, i also make culverts to push any flowing water into areas of vegetation, rather than watch it flow away onto neighbors property or down my driveway, where i plant on hillsides i make U or V shaped beds to catch water it works the same as a swale in principle,

Bird,
my soulition is to clean out the barn and pile the manure/sawdust/hay in the low spots... seems to be working for me. 

It slows down the run off, gives me a way to walk on top of the water that does puddle (I use more hay where I walk) I do not dig nor drain other than where the water ran into the barn.

I also use barn cleanings to make berms to divert water around away from where I do not want it.  Manure will not stop a flood but will slow it down and soak it up.

Hi Jennifer

sounds like you have it under control, with materials on hand even. Hope you didn't mind me using your puddle for an example, i prefer not to dig also

Bird

Hey Bird, happy to be used in that way.  It gives me things to think about and may lead to improvements.  We all learn.  So far I am happy with my management program.  In the cold it is much nicer to stand on dirty hay than in a puddle while watering animals for example. 

possibly your post should be moved to the farm income forum.

  I remembered last time i was reading this and forgot again, the advice on puddling i read in an india internet address.  I had a great indian, as in india, indian internet address, called something like, cow patty dot org. I found it because i wanted to know about using manure in cob building.   
      The indians are really crazy they discuss the use of cowmanure to heal wounds, they use it on animals and humans. The story is that it cured a wound on some cow or bull or ox, so they tried it on everything else, the cow is so holy even in that land were everything is holy, that everything about it is holy. It is true i will try to find the sight again or another onethat i can refer you too. There is a temple dedicated to rats and full of them and anouther one dedicated to monkeys.They talk about how fresh the cow muck has to be to be used on wounds and if you have to make sure it comes from a healthy cow without worms and such, they have a cow pee drink, they are a really long way from being neurotic about cow do.
  Well they say manure stops puddling, you use it in the water for washing your mud, and or  cowmuck floors in the kitchen and for daubing on your walls, it gets rid of insects which could be usefull in the stables, India is very dry so it dries hard and does not smell according to variouse and all reports. I imagine horse whatever would do instead, I suppose manure  breaks up the power of clay to form a water proof surface the particles of clay hold together so firmly that they become water proof they are very small what is called colloical particles and particles of that size have strong elector magnetic feilds round them. the manure probably gets the clay particles to curdle . i can't remember the right term does what lime does to clay the word floculate has surfaced in my head i hoppe it is not just my mind being crazy.  So instead of straw, manure  I have not tried it, i would in a trice if the opportunity came up, if i had the manure and the puddle all at the same time. Sometimes i am squeamish and somtimes not, i am not about manure thats how i was educated, because of the farm i suppose. I could not be a nurse though that might not have been the case when i was younger. 
  I reckon digging or not has to do with time and if you are looking after horses then you probably dont have much extrea time and energy.. i have done things in onne period of my life i have not done in another if you have small children for example it gets very hard to do extra things that are better done if you can get into the job and concentrate on it for two or more hours . agri rose macaskie. 

Bird wrote:
Just finished reading this plus Al Gores version on same subject

Guess what most permies are already doing it, add humus, plant trees, slow down water run off.
I wonder how many millions went into this study- they could of saved a fortune by just asking a permie!

Ick Al gore. are you a fan of science fiction

must agree that one did read a bit that way, but still touched on some important issues, when read side by side and crap filtered they both are worth the read ( took a passing cyclone to pick up Al'a though)

I have to admit to not reading much in the last several years and not following politics, most my stuff came from my own head.  I have often been thought a bit odd. 

I have been playing with, but not know the name for, permaculture and aquaponics ...always. 

I have always had fish but had bought into the myth that hydroponice are just for growing pot.

Hi Jennifer
you do read just by being in a forum, and Paul may not agree but some politics does get through, also if you watch the news one tends to get some politics
as for what comes from your own head its always the best stuff
, any person who gardens, keeps ponds, fish, animals without the use of chemicals is touching base with permaculture/organic principles weather they know it or not
as for hydro, yes you can grow good pot, not sure if i would want to smoke/eat it though chemicals yuk- same would go for hydro vegies - i think hydro products now have organic fertilizer mixes, but give me soil grown anytime
hyro does have its place though and can be a usefull tool

Bird

Hydroponics is not evil or perfect.  It is just another way of trying to do things.
Most strict/traditional hydroponics is also definitely not organic since most organic additives to organics causes bio-slime build up and clogging of the little tubes and stuff.

Since I learned of Aquaponics, I've learned that there are more or less organic methods to growing hydroponically but it takes a big step away from the "sterile chemical" method of hydroponics.  And doesn't work well with little tubing.  (I've seen a 1/2" pipe clog up with bio-slime and fish poo.) 

I suppose you could grow pot with either method but I've stuck with growing food and fish.

And yes, we should be saving our water in our land and run off is a big problem.

I use wood chips in low spots so the puddle can still happen and soak in but I'm less likely to get my feet wet.

i once knew a hydro pot grower who used rock wool as his medium, he only used each slab once then dumped it hygene was his reasoning
i believe that rock wool is spun molten rock have never looked into it
at the time i lived in a very dry area on sandy soil, so took his used rockwool and buried it about 30cm or so under a veg garden as a water holder it worked great and the garden was mulched as normal from the day it was laid, if it is only spun rock it should count as organic, if its not it still counts as recycleing