ant love

Now that our first ant has arrived, lots of people want to find ways to encourage the ants to do the things they want to do. Books, seeds, tools, fasteners, food/snacks ... I also get the impression that it would be tied to seeing pictures and videos here on permies. Maybe the more pictures and videos, the more love?

I am thinking that wofati 0.7 will, for now, be a repository of gapper love. But I am now wondering if all the people that supported gapper love in the past would be cool with mixing that in with "ant love"? Unless anybody objects, I'm going to say that all the stuff for gappers and ants can be mixed together. And that these things are not for somebody to take for their own, but to go to something like a gapper/ant library. Does that sound okay?

Further, I suspect that a lot of people will have a favorite ant - somebody that is doing the stuff that is most aligned with their own values, and will want to encourage that particular person. So, right now we have Evan as the first ant. He arrived via plane, so while he is light on tools, he did stock up on seeds! But I would think a person could send something to Evan and it would be just for Evan. Not for the library.

Here are the addresses to send stuff:

gappers c/o paul wheaton
2120 s reserve #351
missoula, mt 59801

ants c/o paul wheaton
2120 s reserve #351
missoula, mt 59801

evan c/o paul wheaton
2120 s reserve #351
missoula, mt 59801

If you want to send things other folks in the future, you get the idea. Further, for those folks that have been here, you should have received an email about shipping things directly here.


I think the earliest efforts will be to build fence and build wofati. I like the idea of there being a collection of bow saws, axes and hatchets for the tool library. I would be worried about an actual chainsaw - that it would be used incorrectly very quickly and then sit on a shelf, non-functioning for years which seems unacceptably disrespectful to the party that purchased it. (Actually, that might be a good thing - it could sit there on the shelf, utterly unusable to people that don't know how to care for it, but somebody who knows how to care for it could probably get it running for $30 and two hours, then use it for a few days and put it back on the shelf) (please, no gas powered saws.)

Possible tool library items for gappers or ants

bow saw
bow saw blades
hatchet
draw knife
spud (wow, I can't find one on amazon)
timber carrier
cant hook

And then there is stuff like shovels and wheelbarrows and the like.

Maybe folks want to set these folks up with stuff like cameras for pics and video. Something that has been pretty fun is these time lapse cameras:

time lapse camera
outdoor case
outdoor tripod


We have one bicycle that was gifted to us from freecycles. I like the idea that we get to the point that we have 40 bicycles on the property and full bike shop. (Have I ever mentioned that I used to be a mega bicycle advocate?) So, in time, I hope that we get lots of bicycles from freecycles. At the same time, I think it would be good to have bicycle trailers for moving materials and tools around. bicycle trailer


I would like to suggest that when ants/gappers receive ant/gapper love, that they post pictures of having received it, plus pictures of stuff in action.


As for funding ants directly .... Fine by me. Although there have been several people that have come here that love the purity of life that comes from not being connected to banks or paypal and the like.

One idea that could be worth mentioning, and this is rooted in something that Jocelyn once told me that she would like to arrange someday: There could be certain projects where people could put money into the project. Or maybe they could "pledge" toward a project. So if enough is "pledged" so that a project could move forward, then everybody puts their money in and the project moves forward. Ants/gappers would be paid to implement the project. So ants/gappers would have jobs for pay available to them. Maybe it could be set up as a sort of "poor man's kickstarter". It just sits there and collects pledges until it has enough for the project to move forward. Hmmm .... I should start a new thread for this idea.

What have I left out?

Oh yeah,

I would say that of all the power tools that we use, this is the sort of thing for which there is infinite demand and it is something for which there appears to not be a way to subject it to "innapropriate tool burn".

Huge boxes of Torx deck screws in sizes between 2 inches and 4 inches.

Jute. Twine and rope. Huge rolls of the stuff. It gets used for all sorts of stuff.

Would it be beneficial to also offer that people purchase "gift cards" specific to project needs or individuals at your local stores so the energy of the delivery footprint is less?

paul wheaton wrote:

Here are the addresses to send stuff:

Pia Jensen wrote:Would it be beneficial to also offer that people purchase "gift cards" specific to project needs or individuals at your local stores so the energy of the delivery footprint is less?

I like this idea, or just do a paypal account for them so we can donate to them directly. Instead of buying a $40 drill (best drill I ever had only cost $30) send them $40 with a note asking it be used for a drill. That way they can either use the $40 to buy a $40 drill or use it towards a more expensive one of their choice.

Pia Jensen wrote:Would it be beneficial to also offer that people purchase "gift cards" specific to project needs or individuals at your local stores so the energy of the delivery footprint is less?

paul wheaton wrote:

Here are the addresses to send stuff:

That's a great idea!

permie love tempered with earth love

Charles Kleff wrote:

Pia Jensen wrote:Would it be beneficial to also offer that people purchase "gift cards" specific to project needs or individuals at your local stores so the energy of the delivery footprint is less?

I like this idea, or just do a paypal account for them so we can donate to them directly. Instead of buying a $40 drill (best drill I ever had only cost $30) send them $40 with a note asking it be used for a drill. That way they can either use the $40 to buy a $40 drill or use it towards a more expensive one of their choice.

Some people are cool with paypal and some are not.

Another biggie: for a gapper/ant tool library, what would the paypal account be?

Charles Kleff wrote:

Pia Jensen wrote:Would it be beneficial to also offer that people purchase "gift cards" specific to project needs or individuals at your local stores so the energy of the delivery footprint is less?

I like this idea, or just do a paypal account for them so we can donate to them directly. Instead of buying a $40 drill (best drill I ever had only cost $30) send them $40 with a note asking it be used for a drill. That way they can either use the $40 to buy a $40 drill or use it towards a more expensive one of their choice.

as long as the project gets what it needs might require some accountability built in.... for example - lead folks pick up the goods as opposed to gifted individuals being relied upon to go get the required stuff

Pia Jensen wrote: permie love tempered with earth love

When Evan arrived, there were some unopened gapper boxes here. So he opened them. One box was big bunch of heirloom seeds. I think you can't get much more permie+earth love than that!

With the paypal, it would be something more useful to a specific ant. For the tool library it could be just a fund used to replace broken tools.

paul wheaton wrote:

Some people are cool with paypal and some are not.

Another biggie: for a gapper/ant tool library, what would the paypal account be?

If there are multiple vectors for "stuff" to be funneled to projects/people for project work.... perhaps one ndividual is chosen to manage the logistics of such material arrangements so it won't matter if some appreciate one vector over another....

paul wheaton wrote:

Pia Jensen wrote: permie love tempered with earth love

When Evan arrived, there were some unopened gapper boxes here. So he opened them. One box was big bunch of heirloom seeds. I think you can't get much more permie+earth love than that!

That IS beautiful.

First, I like the idea that Evan gets more love than the future ants because I think it takes some serious gumption to be the first up here doing this.

Second, I think some ants will be better photographers than others. Some will post pictures five times a day and others will post pictures once a month. I like the idea that the ants that post lots of excellent pics get the most love.

Third, I think each ant will have their own way of doing things and I hope that each person will supply candy to the ant that they like the best. Maybe the ant with the most animals, or the coolest garden, or artiest art or ... best dressed? Least dressed?

Fourth, I think that gappers will be drawn to some ants more than others. So if an ant seems to do really well with gappers, it might be worth sending that ant the most love.

Fifth, I think that some ants will innovate more than others. Or simply accomplish more than others. Definitely worth more love.

Sixth, I think Evan would like there to be a lot more ants, so if it is well known that there is a pretty healthy tool/book/seed/video/snack/materials library waiting that might be helpful. I also wonder if people might we willing to come out and get wofati 0.7 loved on so it might be a bit more hospitable to the future ants/gappers. Maybe some decorating. Something to make it more of a home than a shelter.

I think having a person who has the job to build the library and manage everything is a noble goal. You could even arrange to pay them $500 per month. Unfortunately, I think you have a 90% chance of hiring somebody that would do the least amount of work possible while still keeping the money. So then you need a manager that will check up on the work being done to decide if the person has earned that money - but, of course, how much is that person paid and how do you make sure they are doing a good job. I know that I never want to be the tool police again. And I'm not really keen on being the you-suck-at-your-job police anymore either.

I have contacted a few people to offer them the land manager position - and that would be somebody that could take on quite a few of these bits. So far, we have nobody here to fill that role.

It is possible that in a few months somebody will just naturally fill that role and do amazing. And everything will be awesome! In the meantime I think the best path is to wing it. Let's see how things evolve. If there are 20 bow saws, it seems unlikely that they will all disappear.

Idea:

The Umbrellla Set: "Adopt an Ant" (the person for the project) "Ant Hill" (a project/big stuff-infrastructure e.g. $300 or more in value) "Ant Colony" (the team on a project) or "Ant Store" (little stuff like tools, gloves, etc.) program
Adopters have several options (leave open to imagination) may include: send money for earmarked project; send money to support" ant or ants or team; buy goods to be sent directly or picked up at store locally by "goods procurement" folk; or to develop a supportive permie guidance relationship (pen pals, visitors); or someone may want to gift all of you with a fine dining, or movie, or workshop, other activity offsite for break.

Hey even, what kinds of things could you use the most ,to help you get started?

I would also like to know the things he wants in particular. Always happy to help a fan of both Permaculture and D&D.

Well, I'm looking pretty good on tools and food and seeds for now, but the biggest thing is fencing. I'm about to drop $110 for a 100' roll of 6' tall field fence, but that'll only get me about halfway along one of my 4 borders or else enclose a ~25 sq. ft section.

Over the longer term, I hope to have tall hugel berms on about half of my perimeter, but that'll take some time and it would be nice to have some growies safely growing in the meantime.

If 25 square feet is what I have to work with for protected garden space for now, then that's better than nothing, but any additional support on that front would be massively appreciated.

I think there's a good chance that someone coming down to the labs from Kalispell will be able to pick up the fence that gets purchased there, (Mild Fence Co., 406-755-7650, seems to have the best prices around,) thus saving on shipping.

In 2013 we had an idea of a "super week". This is where a bunch of people could come out and there would be a bunch of other like minded folks. I wonder if we should set something like that up again. Only there could be a shift in focus to the ant project(s), or maybe getting wofati 0.7 spiffed up for future ants/gappers. Maybe some of the deep roots folks could get started with ant-like projects.

Click on the thumbs up on this post if you would come out for a "super week"

paul wheaton wrote:Click on the thumbs up on this post if you would come out for a "super week"

in theory, I would go, but am not returning to the states... but, the proposal sounds great!

Not sure if Paul would be cool with this but the freecyclers have wheel fences.

http://missoula.craigslist.org/grd/4908746531.html

What about pallets?

an alternative to fencing wire is Reinforcing Mesh. Usually cheaper than fencing wire and welded, not woven/knotted.

http://commerce.bluelinxco.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=10751&urlLangId=-1&productId=4099276460822246369&urlRequestType=Base&langId=-1&catalogId=10010 is just one result in google.

two sheets on mums farm get tied across the hay shed to fence off the hay so animals can use the front for shelter in bad weather. I've used rolls to make stuff like cages.

Try a concrete supply house, plus being ungalvanised they can be left in place and permanent thorny fencing shrubs planted along the base and interwoven up as they grow. Given time they will rust away as the plants grow to take over the fencing role.

Bicycle wheel fencing would be super cool, but it seems like it might be pretty time-consuming. I could probably build a wooden fence in about the same amount of time.

Very interesting link, Rhys. I like that it's ungalvanized. I'll look into it further.

Found what seems to be the best fencing option yet. This remesh stuff comes in 8ft tall 20ft long rolls for only $18 at Lowe's. Here's the link: http://m.lowes.com/pd/Steel-Remesh-Common-8-ft-x-20-ft-Actual-7-916-ft-x-19-8-ft/3799873

8ft tall fence should keep out all but the most wildly acrobatic deer, as opposed to 6ft which might keep out lazy or crippled deer. Plus, since it's not galvanised, there's less toxic gick. Sure, it'll rust away eventually, but as Rhys pointed out, my living fence will by then have taken over.

If you were thinking about sending me some love, but the giant price tag on that other fencing was too scary, please consider this more reasonable option. I'll even burn or etch your name into the fence posts along each section you purchase. Much thanks!

evan l pierce wrote:Found what seems to be the best fencing option yet. This remesh stuff comes in 8ft tall 20ft long rolls for only $18 at Lowe's. Here's the link: http://m.lowes.com/pd/Steel-Remesh-Common-8-ft-x-20-ft-Actual-7-916-ft-x-19-8-ft/3799873

8ft tall fence should keep out all but the most wildly acrobatic deer, as opposed to 6ft which might keep out lazy or crippled deer. Plus, since it's not galvanised, there's less toxic gick. Sure, it'll rust away eventually, but as Rhys pointed out, my living fence will by then have taken over.

If you were thinking about sending me some love, but the giant price tag on that other fencing was too scary, please consider this more reasonable option. I'll even burn or etch your name into the fence posts along each section you purchase. Much thanks!

That's really pretty darn good,as I read your description,before seeing the link, I was thinking about the big square hole fencing (similar to your choice) around the huge garden at Earthsong in Virginia. It hadn't been maintained in a long time when I arrived ad it was quite the wildlife sanctuary... fencing worked for all but the small and flying critters. it was 8ft. Had the deer been able to get in, the deep bed gardens would have been devastated... they were so flush with food...

I just went out and pestered evan. I asked him about some tools to see what he has and what he doesn't have. We visited for about three minutes and I think that this is a few things he could use, in order:

(I just picked the links at amazon (these were not picked by evan) - but I leave actual selection up to you all)

- a really awesome first aid kit

- a froe

- a wheel barrow

- a brace and bits

- a small sledge hammer

- a crosscut saw

If y'all wanna get something, it's probably a good idea to say something here so there aren't dupes. And send to:

evan c/o paul wheaton
2120 s reserve #351
missoula, mt 59801

I like the idea that ants that post lots of awesome pictures get the most love - I think it encourages more ants to come out, and it encourages ants to post lots of awesome pictures.

evan l pierce wrote:Found what seems to be the best fencing option yet. ... If you were thinking about sending me some love, but the giant price tag on that other fencing was too scary, please consider this more reasonable option. I'll even burn or etch your name into the fence posts along each section you purchase. Much thanks!

Evan, I'd love to help with this critical season-opener infrastructure. Let me know the agreeable-to-you-and-Paul logistics, and I will send you some money. I'm fine with PayPal to your personal acct, or whatever else you like. I don't need any accountablity or commemoration. But the pictures are nice. You look like you are getting a lot done! (especially compared to my distracted self). Lemme know.

Kerry,

Evan doesn't have paypal, but nick does. Nick and Evan have been working on everything together. I just talked to the two of them and they said if you put funds into nick's paypal account, they will go into town and pick up this stuff. Nick's paypal is raaumn at gmail.com.

paul wheaton wrote:Evan doesn't have paypal, but nick does. Nick and Evan have been working on everything together. I just talked to the two of them and they said if you put funds into nick's paypal account, they will go into town and pick up this stuff...

Thanks, Paul! Paypal sent. Best use of my employer's inet conx in a long time. Evan, Nick, make sure and post photos, including of yourselves. Once I eliminated my commute, I have trouble keeping up with all the many happenings on the Lab. Pictures and text are easier to consume than podcast and video, as much as I do love those. Cheers!

Awesome! Nick informs me the payment has arrived. Thank you kindly, Kerry! We'll be sure to post lots of action shots of putting your fence up.

Howdy permies! I am the second Ant to sign on to the challenge, and will be leaving southern California in a few days to make it up to the labs for the PDC. If you are keen to know more about me and my past permaculture projects, you can check out my blog at http://www.oneheartfire.org .

I am a builder and handyman type, so I do have a good amount of tools I will be bringing with me. However, a lot of them are power tools so I will be facing some challenges being out on the lab without an outlet in sight. There are some tools I would really like to have on hand when I get to work, and funds are rapidly dwindling, so I thought I would put it out there and see if anyone wants to send this Ant some Love:

I've got some of the tools in the "proenneke package" already, but what I could really use is a good set of chisels, especially a large gouge, as well as a diamond stone and wet stones to keep them sharp. If anyone has an old rusty set I could restore them and get some much needed sharpening practice.

An axe or axe head and a hatchet, sharp or not.

A draw knife and/or a floor scraper for peeling bark.

A block and tackle or a hand winch. I would love to make a bicycle powered winch, so a broken electric winch might work for that.

A chainsaw, working or not (I'm sure this one is a long shot, but it never hurts to ask.)

I've got a ryobi 18v cordless set, so this would allow me to charge the batteries in my truck.
http://amzn.com/B0026SRQEM

I know some of these tools might be on hand in the gapper tool library, but I am a carpenter and like to take care of my tools, so it would be nice to have my own that I could keep sharp. I've got all kinds of stuff I want to build

Other than that, all of the stuff Paul mentioned earlier in this thread is applicable, and although I am still trying to come up with a way to do fencing without wire fence panels, some of those would be nice so I can at least get something growing this year.

Also, I have put out a fair amount of videos on youtube, and I plan to do a video log of my experience at the Lab. A wireless lavalier microphone that plugs into my smartphone would greatly improve the audio quality. I am looking forward to sharing my experience with the permies community.

So much love for the Ant Village! I've already reached my $50 per video goal on my Patreon.com page, which means I am shopping for a set of woodworking chisels to help me build my home here in the Ant Village. I don't have too much to spend, but I would like to get quality tools. I am not going to be doing a huge amount of chisel work, as my home is going to be an earth berm based design, but I will need to do some flat notching in the roof. There is an endless amount of woodworking I might be doing in the future as well. I was talking to Michael Newby, one of the fellow PDC attendants and an arborrist, and his advice is to go with Japanese forged chisels for quality, and that for what I am doing a wide 1 to 3 inch "slick" paired with a large gouge would be fine. I am thinking that it sounds like good idea to spend my money on two good tools rather than a load of crappy tools, most of which I wont use.

So, I am putting out a call to the permies.com crowd to see if anyone out there has a good deal on a large slick and gouge from a Japanese forge. Of course, I am also looking for a good set of diamond stones and a wet stone to sharpen my tools. Any condition is fine, I could use the sharpening experience.

There's a big chunk of Ant love coming our way soon, more on that later.

Useful for any pedal powered ant projects?

One of my long term goals is to develop bicycle infrastructure on the lab, including a shop and a fleet of loaner bikes. I'm also planin to do some stuff with pedal powered machines and tools. I've got an old belt driven bench grinder that is just begging to be pedal powered. So yeah, any bicycle parts and gear would be greatly apreciated. Those pedals and shoes would make any pedal powered machine much more efficient. Send em on out, and thank you very much!

It's August now and the work is in full swing. We have 5 ants at the moment and the almost sure that two more will arrive soon. Other then the escalator being down the thing that is slowing down the work is lack of tool. The ant library is empty and i means that I've spent most of my savings on tools for gathering materials to build my shelter. I still don't have a good felling axe or a bow saw which are going to be doing most of the heavy lifting. Right know i can only get small poles.

Remember anything help. Chris AkA ant #5

Chris Allen wrote:I still don't have a good felling axe or a bow saw which are going to be doing most of the heavy lifting. Right know i can only get small poles.

Remember anything help. Chris AkA ant #5

Hi Chris. Awesome you've joined! I'm looking forward to hearing about your Ant experiences, here on the forums.

I love following from afar this great Ant experiment at Wheaton Labs, and I hate to hear that lack of tools is slowing it down. I'd like to help, but since I don't have pretty much any "Proenneke skills" myself, I'm not really in a position to shop for you. I wouldn't know a good felling axe if it hit me in the forehead, and unfortunately, there are no rusty, Japanese-forged chisels laying around my garage, either. I think people who know about these things are picky about the details--I know I would be. Is the little cheap crappy bowsaw I have for my backyard really what you need for building a house out of trees? I don't think so, but I'm not really sure.

Amazon links? Now that I can operate. Web-order/drop-shop vendors like Amazon, sending money so you can shop Craigslist yourself, etc would all be better for me to help you out. Lemme know.

So first I complained about impossibility-of-perfection, then I did something-or-other. (My usual MO: just ask my boss. )

I sent you an axe. I hope you like it. I started my research by searching permies.com. Hope you are a big guy, also: I don't think I could handle this large of an axe. I've never felled a tree with an axe. (hangs head in shame) Give me a chain saw, I can usually get the tree right on the fence. http://amzn.com/B005EN1V24 Ships from Bellingham, WA. They are estimating 8/13 - 8/18 delivery.

Josh, Curtis, I haven't sent you anything yet. Lemme know.

I'm thinking of writing an article that fleshes out the hand tools thing as far as quality, and how to take care of them (as best as possible to my knowledge). I'm by no means a professional hand tool user or 'Proenneke level 10' about all of this, but it seems to be a recurring thing for people to tell me that I at least look like I know a thing or two (so maybe I do...). The theory is that I'll add to it as I get a chance to use different tools and get more experience.

It looks like the one you ordered for Chris is a Council Axe and I think I've heard a few good things about them. It also has a wood handle, which can be replaced and even made one's self with proper knowledge. A fiberglass handle...not so much. But I think there is almost as much to know about the handle as there is to know about the tool head itself.

I have a rake, shovel, post hole digger, and mattock (that turned out to be not so awesome), a small forest axe (between a full size axe and a hatchet), a bow saw, and a hand saw, and lots of other things that I probably won't need for a while (if not, for side projects, ect.). I have a few things in mind that I could use, but I would like to have a better idea of what my structure is going to involve first. Thank you!

Oh yeah Chris will be able to handle that axe just fine, he's been getting warmed up with a hatchet the past few days I think he's really looking forward to swinging something larger.

I am planning on using saddle joints for my structure and this 1 1/2" timber framing gouge would sure help make some smooth joinery. Thank you!

I feel like these two tools would make very useful additions to the Ant Village tool library, since we are all planing to build homes using the local trees and need some way to move heavy logs around:

A cant hook for turning logs as we peel the bark.

A log carrier for moving logs around with the help of a friend.