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lime plaster on MgO board, cost per square foot?  RSS feed

 
Gilbert Fritz
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Hello,

We are building a natural low chemical mold free bathroom due to chemical sensitivities in the family. We were thinking about applying a coat of lime plaster over the Mag board walls. (For those who don't know, Magnesium board is rather like drywall, but non toxic, water proof, and does not support mold growth.)

Since we already have the flat board surface, we would probably only need one coat.

If we mixed and applied the plaster ourselves, how much would it cost per square foot?

Would we need to apply anything to the Mag board to make it stick?
 
Terry Ruth
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I recommend staying away from MGO board especially imported from China which the 99.9% of the US supply chain until American products are developed and tested per uniform ASTM test procedures and adopted in code. Some of the fillers used are toxic, the salt content can very drastically and boards can fall apart in the shipping containers after they are paid for or shortly after being installed. Premier is the only USA MGO miner and Forever board uses their product but, it is still being verified in test applications. Premier makes a "light burnt" MGO that is lighter than China's heavy and stronger.

Unless you are an Engineer or under the guidance of an experienced installer, or live in China and know their market well and I mean well, you are better off using standard drywall and applying a clay product like from American Clay that is proven to go direct to drywall or blueboard, taped seams level 1. The clay has better surface hygroscopic properties than lime. Some strip the paper off drywall and apply a lime (type s, or NHL 2.5) scratch coats, with a clay finish. Send Bill Bradbury and purple Moose he does it for a living and may consult you.

PPS will depend on local cost, MGO can be comparable to siding, can't touch drywalls low cost.
 
Gilbert Fritz
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We are buying a Jetboard product which has passed ASTM testing. I know there is a lot of low quality imported material on the market.

We want to avoid drywall since it wicks up water and grows mold. I know there should not be any water to wick up, but every house has a plumbing failure or open window at least once.
 
Terry Ruth
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What ASTM test have they passed? What composition was tested? What configuration, what thicknesses? Who verified the test? Who monitors their production line to assure quality? Are they using a phosphate or chloride reactor, what type, what type of MGO, what core? Jetboard like many buys from brokers in China that buy from many manufactures. If you already know you are using Jetboard you got your PPSF from them for the boards, add local lime, there you go I don't understand this thread topic?

I've have researched the MGO market in depth, seen MGO homes in TX, talked to many. Some use very little MGO and alot of toxic fillers. Search MGO on this site and read all the threads. If you do not understand the questions above stay away. Do not be mislead by sales hype.

Good luck to you, there are some that know every import from China and every composition. The last place I'd even try this is in a bathroom. If you want mold free and there is no guarantee you won't get it w/MGO board, thats if it does not fall apart first, go with a wood lath, clay or lime scratch, lime finish burnished, COB, Clay Slip.....etc

Once there is an approved "uniform" test procedure specially for MGO to test the reactor, salt and other contents, classify types, assign perm and fire rating's and other physical properties, and they are adopted into code via thickness data for braced walls, etc, then it will safe to use. It has ALOT of potential that is too risky now due to quality control and lack of complete testing.

I'm waiting to see what Premier/Foreverboard does, the chemist there are not confident with MGO around too much moisture and they mine it, I don't get what gives people confidence in it talking to board sale people. Further nobody has data on lime(Calcium, CO) applied to MGO board nor paints and many coated fasteners. That can turn out to be a nightmare or a good thing but depends on ALOT of factors. Lime should be unnecessary depending on the type and thickness of MGO skins and core the board has. The boards are best if mudded with a MGO mix which is hard to sand and takes more coats than drywall mud. Drywall will not uptake moisture if you have a capillary break. Plumbing issues or leaks can ruin MGO board as well as many building products that surpass their moisture content for over 48 hours when mold germinates and rots.
 
Mike Cantrell
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Terry Ruth wrote: Drywall will not uptake moisture if you have a capillary break.


I've never seen this done. How would you build that into a real-life bathroom? You just have something else besides drywall at the bottom of the wall?
 
Gilbert Fritz
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Hello Terry,

I understand your concern. I know this market is like the wild west. We are working with a building biologist/ consultant who has worked with this material for at least 8 years, and recommends this particular supplier. Here is what Jetboard claims as far as third party testing and monitoring. Of course, they may be lying. So may our building consultant. So may everyone. But in the end it comes down to faith. Everything does. None of us have proved that the sun goes around the earth, but we have faith in others who tell us so contrary to the testimony of our senses. As far as I know, they are using chloride.

Anyway, here is what I found for jetboard.

ASTM Testing for JetProducts™

Racking – ASTM E72
Shear Strength – ASTM D2718
Flexural Strength – ASTM 1185C
Water Vapor Transmission – ASTM E96
Thermal Transmission – ASTM C518
Water Penetration – ASTM E331
Mold/Mildew Growth – ASTM D3273

*ANSI A118.9-05 Standard Testing for Tile Backerboard
Fire Testing for JetProducts™

Combustibility – ISO 1182:
Noncombustible

Surface Burning – ASTM E84:
Class A Fire Rated (NFPA)
Class 1 Fire Rated (ICC)
Flame Spread: 0
Smoke Developed: 0

Firewall – ASTM E119:
Rated for Firewall Assembly


Quality Certification

JetBoard™ and JetBacker™ are subject to ongoing third-party testing to ensure a consistent, high-quality product. Both products are certified by Intertek as Class A and Class 1 fire-rated products, with Zero Flame Spread and Zero Smoke Developed (ASTM E84), and are authorized to bear the prestigious Warnock Hersey product mark. Intertek’s rigorous certification and listing process, together with their quarterly audits, provides users the assurance that all JetProducts™ are of the highest quality – every time. Click here to view the Intertek Warnock Hersey listing; simply search for “JetProducts LLC” in the product directory.

Not only is the quality of JetBoard™ and JetBacker™ endorsed by a third-party organization, the facility in which they are manufactured is regularly audited. JetProducts™ is the only magnesium oxide cement company with a Certificate of Analysis from a certified, U.S.-based lab (NTA, Inc.).[color=red] [/color]

To maintain these high levels of quality certification, JetProducts™ is continuously monitored by both NTA and Intertek.
 
Gilbert Fritz
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As far as the purpose of this post: maybe I was not clear in my question. How much do the materials for a skim coat of lime plaster cost per square foot?
 
Gilbert Fritz
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Also, the Jetboard product is made in the USA, and they use USA sourced raw materials.
 
Terry Ruth
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Lime is dirt cheap, ~$10 80-90 lb bag, SF coverage is on the bag or online, it's the labor that cost it takes skill ~$3-5 SF in the midwest can be as high as $7 in TX, CA, etc.... Again do not put lime on MGO waste of money and could react bad. Now cost is waaay high, hope the Building Bio you are being consulted by is not suggesting this. I know all about Jetboard and I've done the third verification myself on many manufactured products. I just tried to call them to find out whom performs the audits. Give them a call and ask where they get their boards from. If they say America ask to see an invoice since the only one mining is Premier and Foreverboard is the only mfg. Then ask if they are referring to a 3rd party Chinese company, if so you can only wonder how many, then ask yourself if it makes sense? Then ask for payment on inspection of delivery and at least a 30 year warranty no restrictions on mfg defects. If so buy it. I never would but to each their own.

"Drywall" does not belong in bathrooms, Greenboard or better yet Blueboard. It has a zero perm wax coating on it's face and edges to keep water out, if you add a zero perm latex paint you have the uptake and perm protection. Recipe for surface mold since this design cannot dry or is not breathable and is the bulk of the problems in mainstream construction. If you are really concerned about cap uptake from a flooded bathroom add a floor gap and lime/clay filler. Take mag board add the same paint now you may have bad reactions. Keim, a mineral silicate based paint company, stopped their warranted on China MAG boards and have many horror stories to tell due to the bad reactions, same with fasteners, including zinc coats.

I suggest before you go any further call Premier ask for their chemist Claudio...If George Swanson is your "building biologist" ask about him and go see some of his homes being built by clients if he has any.
 
Terry Ruth
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Gilbert Fritz wrote:Also, the Jetboard product is made in the USA, and they use USA sourced raw materials.


Last I checked with Claudio few months ago that is not true, call and ask, let me know perhaps Jetboard is buying the MGO a light burnt from them now, or ask Jetboard where they get thier MGO what type and where it is manufactured so I can go see it. The 4x8 panels should weigh around 45 LBS, not 90 if they are. Call Ron at Foreverboard, he said he was going to send me samples months ago to test and still hasn't, and I need around 7000 SF per home.....Call around you'll see this industry is totally nuts and full of lies, back stabbing, far past the "wild wild west"

It's too bad people and some manufactures in China are giving it a bad name, since MGO in it's raw form is a great natural material with outstanding properties for buildings.
 
Gilbert Fritz
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Just to clarify: have you used the Jetboard product? Or had dealings with the company? And or with George Swanson? If you have any concrete bad experiences with them, please let me know. This could be very important to us.

Please don't take me as challenging you in any way. I really need this information, but we can't change our plans without concrete evidence.

If you had dealings with other products/ people in the market, it is hard to transfer observations, due to the great diversity of materials and processes covered under the term MgO board.

Whatever anybody's opinion of MgO board, I think Drywall (of any type) is a bad idea. The paper backing is mold food; it contains various toxic additives, including formaldehyde; it is not breathable; and it has the wrong Ph to discourage mold growth. Additives meant to deter mold growth are just further toxins. Even with a damp break at the foot of walls, interior plumbing leaks, roof leaks, open windows, condensation, and interior humidity will eventually get the drywall wet.

 
Gilbert Fritz
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http://thepanelman.com/2013/03/03/mgo-board-made-in-america/

Here is a link to an interview with the Jetboard president, talking about their new USA facility. Do you have disproof for these statements? If so, PLEASE let me know as soon as possible.

Thank you so much for your help.
 
Gilbert Fritz
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Buy the way, George Swanson is our consultant on all of this, as you guessed. On some of the other posts here, you seemed to think pretty highly of him. Do you still?
 
Terry Ruth
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Yes, I like George but that does not change the facts. I learned more since I visited him recently, listened to others, including professionals, competitors. It is hard to say who is a straight shooter when sales & $ are at stake. I try and weed through it get to the tech content. I cannot do that easily with boards shipped from China so I backed out. So it raises questions in my mind. I'll support local mining, Premier, perhaps develop and test my own MGO with their light burnt raw materials, since America has a ways to go. Or if Ron ever gets me some samples we'll see. I'm leaning more towards wood lath, lime base, and American Clay until I can develop my own. I have samples coming. The outer skim coat clay should do great to manage surface moisture, we'll see on water durability after my test. I think Bill adds some scoria or other rock aggregates to the lime scratch. Now you have a composite similar to MGO board with less manufactured risk. AC is very DIY friendly and cost about $1.25 SF, add it to pure gypsum, seal the edges, far less DIY cost. I have four bathrooms in my design does not take me long to change it.

Yes the drywall industry can be question as much, you never know what grade of gypsum, what is in the paper. As far as I can tell the paper s/b a wood product and the gypsum is the binder under pressure and temp, so there is no formaldehyde from a glue source. Where are you getting that info? I believe you can get it paperless or strip it off then lime plaster over it. Gypsum is a great natural product it just needs protection from water/moisture, so does MGO. Bill does this all the time in bathrooms and has some great looking walls. Another thing to do is size an exhaust fan correctly, and never let the humidly get over 30-40% RH. Surface bacteria is more of concern, mold has been shown to grow in basements 'in" the walls due to poor detailing. I have a thread that explains how to build for chemically sensitive and to resist microbials here: http://www.permies.com/t/48019/natural-building/Indoor-Air-Quality-Healthy-Building

Read that there are ALOT of myths about mold people take to the bank. It gets complicated. PHD's struggle.

To answer your question, no I have not taken the risk of using MGO board. My homes will go for close to .5 million so it is too big of a risk for me.
 
Gilbert Fritz
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Hello Terry,

Thank a lot for all your advice! And I know, I agree how frustrating all these endless loops of interconnected research are. Behaviour of mold, cleanup of mold, prevention of mold, breathable materials, reputation of companies, non toxic materials, how not to break the bank, legal requirements . . . hour after hour till I feel crazy. Everybody's out to get you.

I can understand why you would not want to use MgO board in your circumstances. Since we already bought one pallet of the stuff, and since George signed off on it, I figure we will just go ahead and put it up. It is just one small bathroom, and so if it fails it will not be catastrophic.

We didn't like the cost much anyway, so we are already looking into lower tech ways to do the rest of the house. It's interesting that you are looking into lathe with lime over it. We might be investigating something similar.

Your construction photos look wonderful, by the way. Please post and let us know if you find a solution to the MgO problem. I will certainly post and let folks know how it goes with my bathroom.
 
Terry Ruth
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I did get a hold of Cole @ Jetboard had a nice chat they are in the process of sourcing raw materials from CAN and moving out of China where they have troops on the ground I'll explain more about the conversation tomorrow after I sleep on it and hopefully regain some faith.
 
Gilbert Fritz
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Please do Terry, Thanks so much.
 
Terry Ruth
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Gilbert Fritz wrote:http://thepanelman.com/2013/03/03/mgo-board-made-in-america/

Here is a link to an interview with the Jetboard president, talking about their new USA facility. Do you have disproof for these statements? If so, PLEASE let me know as soon as possible.

Thank you so much for your help.


Gilbert, most of the article validates what I stated about China and the MGO industry as a whole. Cole agreed with most of what we discussed and I stated. Thanks for posting this, they are currently still buying form China mfgs while moving to American operations in the future. That got my interested so I called to ask where they are sourcing their materials since I know it is not Premier or Martin Marietta the only two US miners. They are getting it from up by Calgary somewhere, I guess because that is where they can reduce cost.

Their exterior structural rated siding has my interest up, especially at their lower cost to siding/sheathing alternatives. Stirps of mag cover the seams to give a board and batten look I had in my model but removed. This will allow attaching a structural siding panel directly to studs without the cost of backer boards (typ OSB, zip, plywood). There are only a certain number of mfg's that offer this at 19/32 (LP, GP, Roseburg), they have a 7/16 on 16 OC rating, I need 24 or I may change my design. I'll be looking for an exposure rating of "exterior" like APA or another recognized organization, not to be confused with Exposure 1 "construction weather only". They have an ICC code recognized letter of compliance for braced walls(as noted in the wall chapter). Building's can literally fall apart and cause death if this is not done right, some homes get it from interior walls as shown in code, yes including bathroom walls. Interior walls also have to meet certain burn requirements. I think he said they just passed UL 263 testing for internal walls using 1/2:1/2 layered panels with a 1 hour burn. That may not work in certain locations that require 2 min.

I'll go through the massive amounts of test data and have questions that need the proper answer before this ends up in my homes. Georges stamp of approval or theirs in not good enough, they won't be taking the liability if things go wrong...or perhaps they will and don't know it. Interesting since I have been talking to two mineral wool suppliers, one of which will not release their product without the proper testing budget will not allow at this time.

I bring all this up to give people an idea of the massive amounts of testing that goes on behind the scenes, and the massive amounts of knowledge home owners need to make proper design decisions. If you act as the designer, sell your home or harm someone that visits you are liable. I find that interesting especially in the natural building communities where people throw ideas around that are founded in just that "ideas" , and we have people that do not have the proper professional(not back yard) test background making recommendations that could potentially injure or cause death. They don't want to hear me say they just cannot guess, they need the cost of a lab just for starters then monitored field testing for compliance to product safety codes and there are many.

I'm going to study their product and documents in depth. This is what I do in my profession for decades, or create them, so it takes a qualified person to look at this situation and documentations, not your average homeowner or DIYer.

I see in section 9 of their MSDS they remove themselves from liability and place it on the designers, user, Architect, Homeowner, which is what I just wrote above.....their first red flag, or, they at least try whether it stands up in court is another thing. If the product is imported from China that may make it more difficult to hold them accountable. I also find it interesting Fred Miller was not asked these line of questions in the interview. I mean after all he has 35 years as a chemist so why not stand behind your experience and product more?

"JetProducts disclaims liability for loss, damage or personal injury that arises from, or is in any way related to use of the information contained in this data sheet."

I'll be back with my findings, it may take a few days.





JetBoard-Disclaimer.JPG
[Thumbnail for JetBoard-Disclaimer.JPG]
 
Terry Ruth
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Gilbert, I have giving it some thought and my first email to Jetboard will be to challenge the disclaimer above asking if they are willing to take liability for their product in full, a contract my attorney will put together that holds them accountable for their product or I will not use it, meaning they will pay for any damages and complete damages resulting from manufacturing defects from a high volume of sales I pay for. I'll have to add those attorney fees to my bottom line. I'd also recommend you have George sign a disclaimer holding him responsible for consulting damages. I recommend you back out of your order until they take full public responsibility on their site for their products, including sales hype interviews that do not address them. I apologize for any misleading thread or post that I may have created, but in many of them I did say I am backing out for these reasons. I just do not sleep well at night knowing that people are being mislead by my post, or manufactures and "consulting" disclaimers, again sorry!

But, you will do as you feel is right and I respect that, I just want to make it clear I had nothing to do with it if you do not get the results you seek. There are alot of writers and editors, book writers, on the internet that have no actual builds to see nor the "experience" they claim. I'd like to see some pics of builds of all these people that claim to have "experience in" and their clients I say it is impossible, but when I ask they are silent. I think they best way to tell is if they have all the answers and no questions, there is SO much to know and NOBODY knows it all!! Some have very good writing and/or wording skills based on cheap goggle search anyone can do, research skills and that is where it ends. If you are not seeing their builds, models, on blogs or on their site that should raise some major red flags. Thanks for the kudos on our site and blogs, it did not come easy. Lots of hard work and sacrifices (especially getting natural building's into code which is a major impact), decades of knowledge and experience with actual builds I hope is respected . Within a short time we have reached the multimillion dollar bench mark we are after and hope to push that up to a billion with our natural homes and commercial buildings in the 5-year plan.
 
Jay C. White Cloud
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I'm leaning more towards wood lath, lime base, and American Clay until I can develop my own.


Hey Gilbert and Terry....

Great conversation...and some wonderful information in this so far. This is "info" and thinking every natural builder should do before "trying" or "thinking" anything about what they may want to do. The base of this conversation is virtually an "absolute" for professionals working in this (or any) building field.

I've actually grown very dependant on Terry (et al) that have the PE background yet also a driven interest in healthy, natural and sustainable materials that "actually" come from manufactures with some degree of "environmental consciousness." MgO boards...in concept...are great. In real world application, and the manufacture behind them...not so much. I have done several years worth of "corresponding" and Terry has really "picked up the pace!" So far...bottom line...I will not use, promote or recommend to clients any of the MgO board materials, means, or methods...and probably won't for some time to come, just as Terry is suggesting. I too like George, his general building concept view, and overall take of moving forward. Nevertheless, as a staunch traditional builder and one that has an "overactive" view of natural building (especially in the professional capacity) I still have not seen, read about, or observed "modern methods" that are fiscally and physically superior to traditional ones.

Simple timber frame, with a thermal diaphragm structure of wall truss, mineral wool and/or light cob insulation, wood/reed lath or wood boarding as the "rough in" is still impossible to beat in almost every place I consult and/or design. I have to get into the middle of a desert or obscure island someplace not to have these or related resources available to me at greatly reduced prices compared to most of these "modern concept" means, methods and materials. Wood, paper, textiles, clay and then lime (in that order) seem to always be the least expensive and very durable methods. For a bathroom, kitchen, or other "wet room" space...stone, tile, even wood will be less money/effort...in the end...than most plastering projects if the life of the structure is inconsideration, with a Tadelakt lime being a very close runner up...

Keep posting your findings...This is a wonder thread resources on the subject!!

Regards,

j
 
Terry Ruth
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Great post as usual Jay. These guy's Jetboard are all over the radar with their disclaimers and marketing tactics. Take a look at some of the statements in their warranty. Gilbert, the first one may be of interest and what I have been saying all along,

Warranty: http://www.americanvintagegroup.com/pdfs/JetBoard_Warranty.pdf

Growth of mold, mildew, fungi, bacteria, or any organism on any surface of the Product (whether on the exposed or unexposed surfaces) and in this respect, any claims of damage caused by mold or mildew are expressly excluded.


Product Marketing:
Ideal for high-moisture and flood prone areas; it won’t rot or harbor mold and mildew


In part that could be due to they have no control over RH, but come on, they make it sound like it is next to impossible to develop mold but won't stand behind the claim.

5. Other Conditions

THIS WARRANTY REPLACES ALL OTHER ORAL OR WRITTEN WARRANTIES, LIABILITIES OR OBLIGATIONS OF JETPRODUCTS.
PERTINENT STATE LAW SHALL CONTROL FOR WHAT PERIOD OF TIME FOLLOWING THE SALE A PROPERTY OWNER/CONSUMER
MAY SEEK A REMEDY UNDER THE IMPLIED WARRANTY OF MERCHANTABILITY OR OF FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. IN
NO EVENT SHALL JETPRODUCTS BE LIABLE FOR CONSEQUENTIAL OR INCIDENTAL DAMAGES OF ANY KIND, INCLUDING ANY
DAMAGE TO THE BUILDING, ITS CONTENTS, OR ANY PERSONS THEREIN, RESULTING FROM THE BREACH OF THE WARRANTY.
NO
FIELD REPRESENTATIVE OR DISTRIBUTOR OR DEALER OF JETPRODUCTS IS AUTHORIZED TO MAKE ANY CHANGE OR MODIFICATION
TO THIS WARRANTY. SOME STATES DO NOT ALLOW LIMITATIONS ON, OR THE EXCLUSION OF INCIDENTAL. OR CONSEQIJENTIAI.
DAMAGES, SO THE ABOVE LIMITATIONS MAY NOT APPLY TO YOU.

Here is the email I sent this morning, I be surprised if they respond.

Cole, nice talking with you. The panelman interview and American products got my interest up so I started with the MSDS and warranty. I find it interesting the interview did not discuss Jetboards disclaimers below removing them from every liability imaginable. Unless state laws prohibit these disclaimers that puts the liability on the homeowner, builders reputation, in essence to "field test" Jetboards products at our expense.

That may work for the small one-off buyer, but as a home builder with up to 7000 SF of product per home, I'm not willing to take the liability for manufacturing defects that are out of my control, nor should my clients.

They only way I'd be interested in doing business is a written contract from your attorney or mine at your expense that clearly holds Jetboard accountable for "all" damages resulting from manufacturing defects. Provided of course the boards are installed according to your application documents.

I doubt I use them unless I get a contract, therefore, no need to waste more time reading their test data that is not backed.

I did receive my sample of American Clay....time to play in the mud as Jay would say I'm thinking lime scratch on wood lath with this as a finish coat. They have a ton on their site and use no iron oxides with VOC (reds, etc). Pine T&G ceiling if cost allows. I'm working on price per SF now. I may get with a lab and develop a mix of my own later, that take some R&D $, legal fees, etc.


 
Gilbert Fritz
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Hello Terry and Jay,

I was wondering what the cost of wood lath with a lime plaster coat followed by a clay finish coat costs in raw materials per square foot? In our case, since we are DIY home owners, labor costs are not so big of a problem. We have a hyper sensitive person in the family and are looking to redo the whole house bit by bit. From what you have said, it looks like Lath and plaster beats Jetboard.

I think we will use the Jetboard we have already bought; too late to do anything else, and we need our bathroom back pronto! For one pallet we will not be out that much money, and we will treat it as a test. (And will let other permies know what happens!) (And we don't have to worry that we will sue ourselves if the wallboard cracks!)

But for our next room we tackle we will definitely use something else.

Too bad Jetboard is so Dodgy.

Just out of curiosity, what kind of warranty would say a drywall manufacturer give a builder? I suppose that if anything went wrong there would be a big lawsuit to see whose fault it was, the builders or the companies.

Do any of you have any opinions on a sort of MgO, Phosphate, and kaolin Clay cement that George recommends spraying on wood work inside the wall?
 
Jay C. White Cloud
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Do any of you have any opinions on a sort of MgO, Phosphate, and kaolin Clay cement that George recommends spraying on wood work inside the wall?


Hi Gilbert,

First, let me just validate that an answer to the above question is at least 50% subjective, so what I am share is a opinion in general of a larger social construct within our "building society" at large, and probably has been from the very first time we leaned some sticks against each other to make something to live in.

My first and shortest answer is a question itself...Why?

Why mix these together, what actually has been improved, or created?

In short...traditional building systems have been using natural materials like these that are "breathable" and healthy, while also facilitating "draft proof" homes for a very long time. This isn't a new concept, nor one that George, I, or anyone else recently invented. I love "promoters" of healthing building trends...I become worn down when there is too much "rebranding" and "reinventing" of concepts....I just don't see a vast improvement on all this. When MgO board actually can "pull off" all that it claims and..."actually"...be a sustainable, environmentally conscious, and durable material that is less expensive than more traditional alternatives...I will be glad to look at it again. Non of the MgO products on the market that I have currently seen or examined in person are nothing more than the same old "toxic gick" rebranded and reformed in a different context with a "new additive" (not really?) MgO added to them.

I think MgO has some great potential...It just isn't there yet, and may not be for some time to come...In the interme I have the same wonderful materials I have always had form most projects...Wood, fiber/textile, clay, lime, and stone. In the correct proportions these create a matrix for walls/roofs that are truly hard to beat...and usually for less money...and usually lasting about 100 longer...with less effort in getting them and taking care of them...

Regards,

j




 
Terry Ruth
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I was wondering what the cost of wood lath with a lime plaster coat followed by a clay finish coat costs in raw materials per square foot? In our case, since we are DIY home owners, labor costs are not so big of a problem.


I'm working on this will let you know soon. I should be able to determine that by using local materials at lowes/home depot, etc...it won't cost much I'm sure.

We have a hyper sensitive person in the family and are looking to redo the whole house bit by bit. From what you have said, it looks like Lath and plaster beats Jetboard.


The other option I'll be looking at is paperless drywall with a clay or lime skim coat. Instead of paper it uses fiberglass scrim cloths for skins just like MGO board and the grade of gypsum is said to resist moisture more. I think there have been some problems with people not knowing what they are doing and place standard drywall in moist high humidity environments so this makes it dummie proof. It cost more just like all new things.

If your house is full of humidity most of the time (like bathrooms, wine cellars, basements, etc) more hygroscopic mass is needed hence lath and 2-4 inches of earth or lime scratch, boards do not provide enough of at 1/2 or 7/16.

I think we will use the Jetboard we have already bought; too late to do anything else, and we need our bathroom back pronto! For one pallet we will not be out that much money, and we will treat it as a test. (And will let other permies know what happens!) (And we don't have to worry that we will sue ourselves if the wallboard cracks!)


My statements about people taking liability for errors and omissions was meant more for complete building designs and to get people to understand small projects can be large since interior walls can be structural and have to meet certain fire and smoke requirements, again the DIY is liable for to not just themselves but surrounding neighbors, visitors, fire fighters, etc......

As far has developing any significant test results. If you read the thread I posted above you would have to hire a microbiologist or building physicist for that. More than likely you will not be able to see the microbials. The other myth people are mislead by is they think this is done by visual inspection. Not much if any in any manufacturing or Quality Assurance product/assignment that I have been directly involved in over three decades is tested by visual. By the time the MGO develops microbials that are visual they would have been air borne for quite sometime. Alot of that is going to depend on how stable the MGO board is, the materials you put in contact with it for food for fungi, humidly and heat that keeps the breathable walls dry.

Just out of curiosity, what kind of warranty would say a drywall manufacturer give a builder? I suppose that if anything went wrong there would be a big lawsuit to see whose fault it was, the builders or the companies.


Jetboard for a new product is very deceptive. MGO is not mentioned in code at all, on other hand drywall is many times as a fire approved materials, etc. There is no comparison to a material that has proven itself safe over time to a new one like MGO. Jetboard obviously is concerned about liability since despite all the decades of chemistry behind the product they do not back it legally. All warranty's are basically worthless, marketing tactics with disclaimers....they best thing to do is avoid having to ever use them.

Do any of you have any opinions on a sort of MgO, Phosphate, and kaolin Clay cement that George recommends spraying on wood work inside the wall?


My opinion is George trying to sell more MGO at a mark up. He got the idea from durisol and faswall that is successful at 100% saturation of wood chips with "proprietary" minerals (MGO, clay, etc) they claim. If you understand petrified wood minerals make it rock like and completely stable. I'd ask George for some test results form a third party lab, if not one should develop the theory by taking the cost of guessing on opinions and use it to get actual data locally. Another anti-fungi/fire retardant spray is borax often used on wood insulation, Mule at Walmart sells dirt cheap as laundry detergent. You could spray that in wall cavities. The bottom line though is understanding material science, mating of materials, and chemistry to prevent mold, not spraying some mix not fully understood.
 
Terry Ruth
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http://www.buildgp.com/densarmorplus-high-performance-gypsum-panels

GPs "DenseArmor Plus" . Warranty is just as limiting as Jetboards including no coverage for mold & mildew despite all the hype about how "resistant" it is the high ASTM test score of "10" it got. Go figure!

I know the lab Engineer at GP been talking about plywood siding. I'll call and find out just what it is that makes the gypsum core more "moisture resistant' . I been to my local coal burning plant where I get it for free along with fly-ash I can also get at Sutherland's cheap. The natural builder may as well create their own renders, at least then they have total quality control and are not missing anything these manufactures are suppose to provide in liability, especially for new product development. The money saved could be used to do some lab testing and give yourself more quality assurance.

http://www.americanclay.com/#!technical-information/c17kg

American Clay uses clay blends as a veneer product. You do not see alot of eye catching sales hype on their site although there are some. Their warranty has some disclaimers not alot.

Some of the microbial disclaimers have to do with unknowns, and materials consumers mate to, since it is still not that well understood in building's my thread points out. But some of these guys are using that lack of knowledge to make false claims and not back them legally. I'd think in a court of law they would held accountable to their market claims despite the warranty disclaimers.

Some states have "implied warranties" defined by state statue and mfg's cannot redefine them. KS, mine, is one that does not allow "as is" sales. I could not find time limitations on construction materials.

Here's some FTC guidelines: http://www.consumer.ftc.gov/articles/0252-warranties

I have to give this some thought. I'm half tempted to keep my money and develop my own renders. In the long haul I'd probably be much better off. Time to go look for that wood lath.

 
Carrie Lambert
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Hi Gilbert! I was wondering if you could give an update on your experience with the MGO Boards? We are also consulting with George Swanson because I have Lyme Disease, mold toxicity and MCS. I have been very sick. Drywall makes me extremely sick the minute I'm around it so we know that is not an option for us.
 
Gilbert Fritz
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Well, we had mixed experience. We are total amateurs, but we found the MgO board difficult to work with.
 
Bill Bradbury
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Hi Carrie,

Most of the time there is a historic precedent to the toxic factory made material currently in use. In this case it is 3 coat lime plaster. There are many different recipes, but the basic is; 15# felt paper with expanded metal lath on that. Then each successive coat of plaster has more lime and finer aggregates. Very cheap and non-toxic, truly zero voc and breathable. Here's a good video


All Blessings,
Bill
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Carrie Lambert
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Thank you Bill and Gilbert. As I stated I am very sick along with my daughter. We are biding a tiny home on wheels and moving west to a drier climate and see if that will help us heal. It will also financially help us afford better treatments. Since we are going to be in such a small space, 8' x 32', we are really trying to watch our EMFs and chemicals. I'm looking at this as a healing home for my family, temporarily. My husband is a builder for the government in DC but has never had to build non-toxic so we consulted with George Swanson on the breathing wall but the more I pray, I'm worried. I've asked God to please send us someone to help guide us on the materials to build this. My main issue is mold. I have a genetic gene that only 3% of the world has that does not allow me to detox mycotoxins. So, its very critical to try and prevent mold as much as possible. I'm reading where these tiny homes are causing a lot of mold issues because they are being built to "tight". Its a small space and needs some breathing room. Any suggestions for us? Plywood and drywall really bother me. Its an immediate reaction to these materials. Thank you.
 
Carrie Lambert
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I did forget to mention, weight with MGO Board was not an issue. We have 3 7ton axel trailer. We were able to use MGO for exterior, interior, roofing and subfloor. However, it is very expensive for us to take that route.
 
Carrie Lambert
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Our trailer. Our foundation...lol
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Bill Bradbury
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Well Carrie,

With the sensitivities that you have, I think a trailer is a bad idea. In a natural/breathable wall assembly, the water vapor traveling through the wall assembly will condense on any cold surface like steel; once sufficient water in liquid form gathers on the steel frame, it will start to produce mold and rot. Your best bet is to mimic what has already been done for thousands of years. If on wheels, then go with a wooden frame and siding, etc. like caravensarai of the gypsies. Steel wheels and axles are fine, but don't build condensing planes into the actual structure.

I would however go with a tiny home built of natural materials, anchored firmly to the Earth with a stone foundation. Historic homes that have not been updated with modern materials can be an excellent choice for living mold and toxin free as well.

There are many natural building resources here on Permies that can help you and your family make well informed decisions on this.

All Blessings,
Bill
 
Carrie Lambert
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Thanks again Bill. I wish we had the option of building on a foundation but we don't. The tiny home on wheels is our only option for now. However, we are praying and trusting to only be in this 2 years tops!
 
Terry Ruth
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Unfortunately, Indoor Air Quality (IAQ) Issues that cause health issues due to the chemical or non-chemically sensitive occupants in building’s may involved several industry professionals and testing, not guessing. Guessing can lead to a lot of money and time being spent only for the occupants to experience a sicker home or not get the results they seek. If you do some research you will find that initially a design is reviewed by a chemist that knows the specific mycotoxins occupants are not able to detox, and what EMFs are an issue. At that point, during and after the build test are designed to identify them during and after the build. There is no general IAQ test, a known microbial has to be tested for, since there are too many families, and no catch all test.

This industry primarily looks at drying via perm rating’s which can have little to do with IAQ issues, some are also mislead by inert materials, and/or do not understand material compatibilities that can cause galvanic reactions, that even “inert” materials can produce. This really requires a person with a strong chemical background to design, and/or building micro-biologist_ physicist. Can be very difficult to find and costly. International Association of Indoor Air Quality (IAIAQ) or local professionals that deal with these issues are your best choices. That should be part of the design review, testing, along with coordination with your medical doctor.

Another myth is air is a remedy or cause, air tight or open air building’s depending on design and location can both produce the same IAQ issues. Air and moisture are only parts of the equation and at times are irrelevant.

Whomever you hire for advice or consulting should have errors and emissions (E&O) insurance and be willing to back all related design errors or ommissions should their advice being in error. If you are being asked to sign a release of liability, or are using a manufactured product that claims to be microbial or emf free, that product should back its claims with a life time warrantee, if installed per the mfg instructions or advisor’s advise.
 
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