• Post Reply Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic
permaculture forums growies critters building homesteading energy monies kitchen purity ungarbage community wilderness fiber arts art permaculture artisans regional education experiences global resources the cider press projects digital market permies.com private forums all forums
this forum made possible by our volunteer staff, including ...
master stewards:
  • Nicole Alderman
  • r ranson
  • paul wheaton
  • Mike Jay
  • Anne Miller
  • Jocelyn Campbell
stewards:
  • Devaka Cooray
  • Joseph Lofthouse
  • Burra Maluca
garden masters:
  • Dave Burton
  • Pearl Sutton
gardeners:
  • James Freyr
  • Joylynn Hardesty
  • Daron Williams

Hypermobility and light-headedness--are there herbs that would help?  RSS feed

 
master steward
Posts: 7651
Location: Pacific Northwest
2582
cat duck fiber arts forest garden homestead hugelkultur kids sheep foraging wood heat
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I have low blood pressure and hypermobility, and often get dizzy, especially when pregnant or when my psoriasis flares and my lymph nodes inflame. Are there herbs that I could use that would help with my dizziness? I am currently breastfeeding, and so would like to avoid herbs that would affect my daughter negatively through the breast milk.
 
Nicole Alderman
master steward
Posts: 7651
Location: Pacific Northwest
2582
cat duck fiber arts forest garden homestead hugelkultur kids sheep foraging wood heat
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I also have low bloodpressure, likely caused in part by the hypermobility. I'm usually 105 over 65, if I remember correctly. Sometimes I've been under 100, especially when I was pregnant.
 
author
Posts: 78
Location: Pleasant Hill, Oregon
33
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Hi Nicole,

Thanks for the lovely book review you gave my book, Herbal ABC's - The Foundation of Herbal Medicine, here in the forum. I appreciate your kind words.

You are asking for something that will treat two symptoms you have. However, those two symptoms are seen with a variety of causes. Rather than work on a symptom, I like to find the cause and treat the cause.   Although you can treat a symptoms and in some cases it is needed to even save a life, generally this does not solve the issue. It will mask the real issue or lead to additional symptoms. Do you know what the cause of your low BP and joint hypermobility is?

Hypotension (low BP) can be caused by a number of things. Hypermobility has less causes.  Hypermobility is seen with Ehlers -Danlos Syndrome - which can also cause hypotension. You can see more on Ehlers-Danlos at this website with some tests and questions to see if you fit in that category. http://hypermobility.org/professionals-section/hypermobility-disorders-an-update-for-clinicians/

Another cause of hypermobility is Marfans syndrome. This would mean you would be tall and think with unusually long arms and legs and spidery like fingers and toes.

Hypermobility is also seen in  certain types of genetic HLA DR haplotypes. 11-3-52B, I work with people who have genetic mold sensitivities and this particular haplotype that is seen in 1% of the population is seen in  15% of the people who have mold sensitivities. I have also seen people who do not have a genetic reason or known disease causing their hypermobility, who become hypermobile and twist their ankle or get repeated and varied types of tendonitis etc when they are exposed to water-damaged buildings. These people are only hypermobile when they become inflamed from being in an environment that has mycotoxins or from exposure to other biotoxins.   By the way, folks with HLA 11-3-52B should avoid the Gardasil vaccine and are more likely to be affected by various biotoxins such as mycotoxins, cyanobacteria, Lyme, and venom from some spiders and snakes.

I know this is not the answer you were looking for, but I would like some additional data please. Although, there is no way for me to actually treat you through this forum, perhaps with some additional data, we can point you in a direction that will give you the answers you are seeking.

 
Nicole Alderman
master steward
Posts: 7651
Location: Pacific Northwest
2582
cat duck fiber arts forest garden homestead hugelkultur kids sheep foraging wood heat
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I definitely don't have Marfans. I'm 5'4" and though my arms and legs are as long as the average 5'9" person, I'm not spindly nor have the facial characteristics of one with Marfans. I meausred my arm span, and it's four inches less than my height. I'm also the shortest person in my family, including all my cousins!

I pass many of the tests for Ehlers-Danlos syndrome (I score either a 6 or an 8 on the Brighton scale. Both arms used to hyperextend and the one that wasn't broken still does. It's hard for me to tell how much my knees hyperextend, but I'm pretty sure they did a lot when I was younger. I also have very "floppy" hips--I can do the butterfly stretch and stick my head on the floor easily, and when I gave birth to my daughter, I only had to push twice. My hips also usually felt like they were about to fall off while pregnant).

In the rubric for dertermining Ehlers-Danlos, the ones in bold are the ones I have

The features that constitute Domain 2 A are:

Skin/fascia

Unusually soft or velvety skin
Mild skin hyperextensibility
Unexplained striae such as striae distensae or rubrae (I got stretch marks while pregnant, but no other time. I also have always grown very slowely and never had rapid weight gain, so not many other chances for stretch marks)
Bilateral piezogenic papules of the heel--I always wondered what those were!
Atrophic scarring involving at least two sites and without the formation of truly papyraceous and/or hemosiderotic scars as seen in classical EDS
Recurrent or multiple abdominal hernia
Pelvic floor, rectal, and/or uterine prolapse in children, men or nulliparous women without predisposing medical condition

Dental crowding and high or narrow palate
Mitral valve prolapse (MVP) mild or greater based on strict echocardiographic criteria
Arm span-to-height ≥1.05 AND/OR upper segment/lower segment ratio <0.89
Arachnodactyly, as defined in one or more of the following: (i) positive wrist sign (Steinberg sign) on both sides; (ii) positive thumb sign (Walker sign) on both sides; (iii) hand/height ratio > 11% on both sides; (iv) foot/height ratio > 15% on both sides
Aortic root dilatation with Z-score >+2 on echocardiography



I needed 5 of those to pass, and have only three, maybe four. I also have not had any dislocations. Though, I have had tendosynovitus in both wrists, tendinitis in my left arm, and tendinitis in my shoulders. My physical therapist noticed that both joints were loose. And, pain that lasted for more than three months in my hips while pregnant, as well as in the joints that had tendinitis.

So, according to the rubric, I do not have EDS, though I'm pretty close to it. According to the link you gave me (which is a MARVELOUS link! There was not that much information available the last time I researched hypermobility), hypermobility and EDS may be a continuum, and those with non-EDS hypermobility can have many of the same co-occuring conditions, like hypotension. On the spectrum, I appear to be just below the hypermobil EDS section.



I also likely have mild autism, which I've read also occurs in those with EDS syndrome.  I also bruise easily, which is tied to hypermobility. And, I had extreme hyperactiveness as a child, and now am often fatigued unless I get really excited. I have read that this is also a common occurrence in those with hypermobility. (https://www.dynainc.org/docs/hypermobility.pdf)

Hypermobility is also seen in  certain types of genetic HLA DR haplotypes. 11-3-52B, I work with people who have genetic mold sensitivities and this particular haplotype that is seen in 1% of the population is seen in  15% of the people who have mold sensitivities. I have also seen people who do not have a genetic reason or known disease causing their hypermobility, who become hypermobile and twist their ankle or get repeated and varied types of tendonitis etc when they are exposed to water-damaged buildings. These people are only hypermobile when they become inflamed from being in an environment that has mycotoxins or from exposure to other biotoxins.   By the way, folks with HLA 11-3-52B should avoid the Gardasil vaccine and are more likely to be affected by various biotoxins such as mycotoxins, cyanobacteria, Lyme, and venom from some spiders and snakes.  



Fascinating! If I have this, I already failed on the Gardasil one, as I got it 10 years ago, not knowing how little long-term study had been done on it. My inverse psoriasis began after I got the vaccine--whether it caused it, I do not know.  I do not think I have a heightened sensitivity to mold, though, as we had massive water damage to our house when I was a child, and my brother was reacting to it like crazy, and I wasn't affected at all. But then, if it's mold making my hyper mobile, I'd probably have to leave the state for a while to find out! I've always lived in the wet, Pacific Northest (the "mold state" as my Californian husband calls it!)

But, considering that I seem to have a lot of things in the Hypermobitity Spectrum Disorder, I'm thinking that that is what is causing my hypermobility. Are there herbs that can help with it, or at least with the hypotension and dizziness?
 
Sharol Tilgner
author
Posts: 78
Location: Pleasant Hill, Oregon
33
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Although, I can't rule out a genetic disease. It sounds like you most likely do not have a known genetic disease causing it. When did you first notice the hypermobility? When did the water-damage start at your childhood home?

You mentioned inflamed lymph nodes previously. What issues do you have besides inflamed lymph nodes, psoriasis, hypotension and hypermobility? When did they start? What else was going on when they started? It is not really a proper place to do a health interview on a forum. So, that is not what I want to do by asking you these questions. However, I do want you to think about anything that was going on in your environment when these issues started. If you can think back on your health history and try to create some herstorical perspective, it may give you a clue as to what may have caused and be aggravating your body.

I find people who tend to have chemical sensitivities, mold issues or other biotoxin/environmental toxin issues can have hypermobility that can come and go with their state of inflammation. Those that have been inflamed for a long time can simply have constant hypermobility from being continually inflamed. Once they remove the offending issue and support their biotransformation system (detox system) to remove the toxins, the hypermobility gets better unless they have damaged the joints from the hypermobility having been in existence for a long time. Chronic inflammation can also be caused by chronic viral illness, heavy metals, parasties, a chronic gut dysbiosis and other things. So, it takes some detective work to figure this out.

It is important to figure out what is instigating these issues as otherwise you are using bandaids to treat yourself. You could even use diet, herbs and supplements to support your biotransformation system, but removing the cause is the real road to cure.
 
Nicole Alderman
master steward
Posts: 7651
Location: Pacific Northwest
2582
cat duck fiber arts forest garden homestead hugelkultur kids sheep foraging wood heat
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Hmmm, I think I've always been hypermobile. I remember bending into funny shapes in kindergarten. The mold fiasco didn't occur until I was probably 10 or 11, maybe even older.

Other conditions:
  • Unexplained epilepsy from 12-14. I had large convulsions that would occur when I was half-asleep, and I would be cognizant and aware through them. They would start with horrible pins and needles in my left foot and travel up my body. I would have enough time to scream before it reached my head and immobilized me. I haven't had medication, or seizures since I was 15.
  • psoriasis: Inverse psoriasis started at in 2007, before I got married and after in the middle of my gardrasil shots. I also started working, but it was in the church that I had attended since I was 9
  • psoriasis on my scalp. I'd always had greasy dandruff, since at least 7th grade. I started having red patches and pealing skin on my scalp after my miscarriage. It got much worse after I gave birth. Hormones seem to play a roll here.
  • Swollen lymph nodes occured on the back of my neck when my psoriasis was really bad. I was also extreemly fatigued and dizzy. All three conditions improved once I treated my psoriasis. I now have a UV light that I use, which treats the psoriasis. My lymph nodes are no longer swollen
  • I was tested for rheumatoid arthritis--test came up negative. My inflammation levels were very low, too (C-reactive protein was low).
  • Polycystic ovaries: discovered after my miscarriage. I don't have the weight/hair-growth/acne problems that usually go with PCOS
  • Irregular periods: From age 14-28, my periods were very irregular. I usually bled for 7 days, and my cycle was anywhere between 18 and 27 days long. I also had horrible mensrtual cramps (hurt about as much as labor pains). When I switched to 7th Generation Pads, the cramps greatly reduced. When I removed wheat and ate less starch, the cycle became 26-28 days long, with bleeding only 3-5 days. Much nicer!
  • Really bad pain in my tailbone that would make it hard to stand. Felt like arthritis. Occurred after pregnancy. Comes and goes. Haven't had a "flare" of it for 6 months.
  • Insomnia: As a baby, I never took naps. As a child, it would take me 2-3 hours every night to fall asleep.
  • Racing heart: This would happen when pregnant. My heart would race and pound when lying down. Blood pressure would always read "normal" (which for me was low)
  • Miserable pregnancies: I was nauseous and fatigued and dizzy and foggy headed through the entirety of both pregnancies.


  • I've always been bendy, with back pain in Jr High before I learned to strengthen my core. I also had floppy hips that would feel like they'd slip out of joint while walking and then "pop" back in. I would get light headed upon standing as a child, but not always. I was also running on full steam--very hyper and full of never-ending energy. I could stay up all night and never get tired. I did not understand how people could accidentally fall asleep. I started being able to fall asleep with 30 minutes in Jr High, once I started taking seizure medication, and I also seemed to lose some of my never-ending energy at the same time. Come highschool, I really suffered if I didn't get at least 8 hours of sleep at night.

    Other than relaxin during pregnancy loosening my joints, I can't find any other causes. My mother is also bendy--when she was younger, she could put her hands flat on the floor. Her mother could hold a broomstick in both hands and lift it up and over her head and then down to  her bottom.  Other's in my family are also bendy. And, others--like my dad--also have low blood pressure, no matter how stressed (and he's prone to being stressed!) he might be.

    It seems that hormones and age and stress seem to contribute, as well as genetics, though I won't rule out environmental stuff, either, though those correlations seem harder to discover.
     
    Sharol Tilgner
    author
    Posts: 78
    Location: Pleasant Hill, Oregon
    33
    • Likes 1
    • Mark post as helpful
    • send pies
    • Quote
    • Report post to moderator
    Well, that cleared it up. If hypermobility runs in the family, it is obviously a genetic trait. It is quite possible that if you did an HLA DR haplotype test that you might be 11-3-52B that I mentioned. That would also make sense as it is possible the guardasil induced the psoriasis flare up.

    Does the rest of your family also have other similar symptoms to you or do they have a lot of inflammation that appears as other symptoms?
    Do people living or working with you have any similar symptoms of symptoms of general inflammation?
    What makes your symptoms better and worse?
     
    Nicole Alderman
    master steward
    Posts: 7651
    Location: Pacific Northwest
    2582
    cat duck fiber arts forest garden homestead hugelkultur kids sheep foraging wood heat
    • Mark post as helpful
    • send pies
    • Quote
    • Report post to moderator
    One grandfather and one grandmother had/have rheumatoid arthritis. My other grandmother had psoriasis, and I have an aunt and uncle with it, too. My grandmother also had lung and skin cancer, while my mother had renal cancer (removed the kidney and she's fine now), and another grandfather had prostate cancer. My brother has no issues other than seasonal and mold allergies. Niether of my parents have autoimmune problems.

    I no longer work, but there didn't seem to be any abnormal amount of health issues at my former workplace.

    My husband has: Crohn's, hypermobility, Uveitis (started after my son's birth), vitiligo (has had his whole life), crohn's-caused arthritis and ulcers (both cleared up now). His mother also had stomach ulcers and his father heart and joint problems. My husband had always had gut problems--with pain and constipation and horrible gas. It had gotten better by switching to paleo from a diet of mostly fastfood and processed junkfood. He'd gone to the hospital a year before his was diagnosed (a few months after we bought our house), with horrible gut pain, only to have it be "gas"--it was probably his crohn's forming.

    The birth of our son was really stressful--he was a colicky baby, and so neither of us got sleep and endured a LOT of screaming and emotional fatigue/depression. My husband stopped eating paleo and started eating the free ice cream and treats at work. His crohn's flared up

    A year before our son was born, we bought our house. It's a 1998 manufactured home. The previous owner was a smoker, so we painted over everything with Kilz. We have well water, and live by a wetlands. For a while, our roof was leaking (two years after our son was born), and there was mold. We still get mold and mildew trying to grow behind our furniture. There's currently a lot of dust, too.  

    Timeline:

  • Bought house October 2012
  • December, 2012 Husband Horrible abdominal pain and checked in to ER, sent home.
  • January-October 2013: I'm pregnant, dizzy, light-headed, low bloodpressure, very loose joints, nauseous. Had Group-b strep UTI and antibiotics--took lots of probiatics and S. Boulardii
  • October, 2013—Husband had Had first uviatus flare when our son was born and all the stress of the hospital, and drinking hospital coffee. Hospital coffee correlated with styes, too. Prednisone eye drops worked.
  • January-October 2016  I'm pregnant, dizzy, even more fatigued, light-headed, low bloodpressure, very loose joints, nauseous. Had Group-b strep UTI and antibiotics--took lots of probiatics and S. Boulardii
  • June 2016 Husband had first crohn’s flare-up. Had anal fistula. Very painful Got diagnosed with Crohn’s disease. Had flap surgery on fistula. Colonoscopy showed crohn’s but not so bad. Went ahead with SCD diet.
  • He's had three more flare-ups, one caused by a colonoscopy, another after a vasectomy, and a small one after he sprained his ankle.


  • Our children both had/have reflux. Both are very hypermobile. Daughter was on antibiotics for over a month due to an infected skin growth. It was removed. Her food is not digested  (she only has 6 teeth though) and we have her on the SCD diet to be on the safe side. We worry about both kids getting Crohn's.

    My husband often wonders if it's "something in our water." But, the tests done on the water showed nothing horrible.
     
    Nicole Alderman
    master steward
    Posts: 7651
    Location: Pacific Northwest
    2582
    cat duck fiber arts forest garden homestead hugelkultur kids sheep foraging wood heat
     
    Sharol Tilgner
    author
    Posts: 78
    Location: Pleasant Hill, Oregon
    33
    • Mark post as helpful
    • send pies
    • Quote
    • Report post to moderator
    From the little bit I know, it appears that you and your husband both have some genetic variants that have likely set you up to be more susceptible to environmental toxins. I don't have enough data to know this for sure, but it appears this way. The fact that you are living in a moldy home makes me suspect this as a culprit. If not the main culprit it would certainly add to your issues no matter if you were sensitive to it or not. I am going to be very straight-to-the point here.

    Your home has been water-damaged. You have mold that grows currently. Even behind the furniture. You have active mycotoxins being formed and released and the old mycotoxins that build up over time.

    Depending on the type of active mold it could be mildly irritating to the body or seriously irritating. This is to both people sensitive and non-sensitive. No one should live in a building with active mold from water-damage. When there is enough moisture to cause visual mold, it also means there is bacterial growth and release of inflammagens from the building materials that are being degraded by the mold and bacteria. Mold and bacteria will release toxins as they try to defeat each other for space. They are releasing these toxins to kill each other but these same toxins hurt humans and animals too. You can read more about how to know if you have a mold issue here: http://www.herbaltransitions.com/DoYouHaveAMoldSensitivity.html

    Even for people who have a genetic sensitivity to mold, they often do not realize it until they have some type of instigating incident in their life that lowers their defences. This could be an illness, a car wreck, an emotional blow etc. They general live in the moldy building and notice nothing. They may have more sore throats than others or a bit of asthma or even slightly achy joints etc. but nothing that really alerts them to the issue. Then they have something that is stressful happen. It could be physical, mental, or emotional and it decreases their defenses enough that now they have some type of disease or are chronically fatigued, etc. It often takes some other predisposing illness or accident for the mold sensitivity to unmask itself.

    Inflammation in the body from mold sensitivity can show up as a variety of different diseases. Here is a list of signs and symptoms that are commonly associated with people who have a mold sensitivity:

    General Signs & Symptoms

    Fatigue, Weakness, Flu-like Symptoms, Exhaustion, insomnia, sensitivity to environment, Multiple diagnosis from various docs, symptoms that move around the body and change getting better and worse with no understanding as to why

    Eye/Ear/Nose/Throat

    Blurred or hazy vision, eyes sensitive to light, Eyes tear up, night blindness, ringing in the ears, hearing loss, dizziness, Sinus/nasal congestion, nose bleeds, sensitive to odors, Eyes puffy/dark circles, vocal cord polyps, nasal polyps, laryngitis or raspy voice, burning in throat/sore throat, sensitivity to environment

    Musculoskeletal

    Joint pain, shooting pains, Ice-pick pains, burning pains, stabbing pains, muscle cramps, Muscle aches, Weak muscles, Fleeting & moving pains, Tics, Spastic muscles, Charlie horses, Hands curl up like a claw, Toes/feet curl up, AM stiffness,

    Lungs/Heart

    Shortness of breath and tachycardia (fast heart beat) with exercise, cough, wheezing, asthma, swelling or edema, heart palpitations, heart pounds intermittently

    Digestive/Liver/Urinary


    Metallic taste in mouth, bile reflux, Nausea, Vomiting, Diarrhea, Constipation, Abdominal pain, Weight loss, Weight gain, Urinate a lot

    Nervous/Endocrine/Immune

    Insomnia, headache, dizziness, mental confusion, poor concentration, poor short term memory, Forget what you are doing, Can't remember names or words, Poor word recall, Disorientation, Decreased learning ability, Real thirsty, Low blood pressure, Poor temp regulation, Numbness, Tingling, Tremors, Vertigo, Parkinson's like symptoms, Mood swings, Anxiety, Irritable, Body temperature regulation issues, Difficult concentration, Lack of sex drive, swollen and painful lymph nodes. POTs or postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome is seen in some people.

    Skin


    Skin is sensitive, Skin is itchy, Feels like bugs crawling on skin, Feels like bugs stinging or biting but nothing there, Easy bruising, Itchy pimples, skin sores, Bumpy skin, Thickened skin, Skin peeling, Burning sensations, Red Face, Sweats - especially at night, static shocks out of the ordinary, Skin reacts to sun, even through clothing sometimes, vitiligo, cherry hemangiomas, dermatographia urticaria(when you can write on the skin- may be related to high C4a).


    Extremeties


    Cold Hands/feet, Discolored hands and feet such as white and red mottling, Parts go to sleep (numbness), tingling, Hands shake, Clawing of fingers or toes

    Some physicians, including myself are under the opinion that many inflammatory diseases may be associated with mycotoxin exposure. This has not yet been proven although some practitioners have seen patients get better who have some of these illnesses when their mycotoxin exposure is treated. The list of inflammatory diseases include rheumatoid arthritis, atherosclerosis, inflammatory bowel disease, lupus, sjogren's syndrome, multiple sclerosis, raynaud's disease, alzheimer's disease.



    Some of the diseases associated with mycotoxins

    alzheimer’s disease (specifically inhalation alzheimer's), autism, some types of cancers, cardiovascular disease, chronic fatigue syndrome, diabetes, fibromyalgia, hypertension, rheumatoid arthritis, inflammatory bowel disease, lupus, Sjögren’s syndrome, Crohn’s disease, multiple sclerosis, Raynaud’s disease, kidney stones, and vasculitis.

    There is a screening test that a person can take to see if they might have a mold sensitivity: It is called a VCS or visual contrast sensitivity test. It can be taken in a physicians office or online. Here is a link on line where you can purchase a series of tests. It is not expensive. https://www.survivingmold.com/ Look for VCS online screening test on this page. I heard they may have made the first test free. Follow the directions as you need to be a specific distance from the screen and wear glasses if you usually wear them. There is a brief history looking for biotoxin illness also that they have you fill out.


    My suggestion with what I currently know would be to tell you to take the VCS test and if positive,  go camping this summer. - ASAP Make sure the tent or camper you camp in has absolutely no musty smell. If you have trouble smelling mold/mustiness have someone check the tent/camper out that can smell it. They should have no mold growing either. Camp for a couple weeks and spend as much time outside in the open air as possible. See if the family feels better.


    If you are reacting to mold, what would need to happen, is to remove yourself from the moldy environment and get better. You could remediate your home but this does not always work for people. You may need to take binders and would probably need to take supplements/herbs to support your biotransformational system. There are also additional lifestyle changes that can help. If you think this is something you want to pursue, I can give you additional data.

    If you are a person who is part of the 25% who genetically has trouble removing mycotoxins from your body, you would have to use binders to help remove the mycotoxins. Additionally, you would need to support your biotranformational system. If you want to read more about any of this. I have extensive data on mold and treatment at my website. http://www.herbaltransitions.com/
     
    Tick check! Okay, I guess that was just an itch. Oh wait! Just a tiny ad:
    Permaculture Design Course in Divinya - a yogic community in Sweden
    https://permies.com/t/106159/permaculture-design/Permaculture-Design-Divinya-yogic-community
    • Post Reply Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
    • New Topic
    Boost this thread!

    Similar Threads