Kevin Olson

As I'd alluded to in the comment on the Livestream YT video, here's the scan of the table of soil bearing capacities from Seddon's 1985 book "Practical Pole Building Construction".

On further edit, here's the link to the livestream, for ease of access:

My comment shouldn't be too difficult to find there , but here's the copy/paste of what I wrote there, to make this thread more stand-alone, should the YT comments evaporate or something:

"I think there's likely a units problem in the soil bearing capacity specs being quoted, though I don't know where the error crept in.

I checked my copy of "Practical Pole Building Construction" by Leigh Seddon (mine is the first edition 1985 copy write).  In Table 5-2 (page 57), the soil bearing capacities range from 1500 to 6000 pounds PER SQUARE INCH, depending on soil type.  For the rocky soil shown in the photos, I'd think the bearing capacity would be close to the higher limit, but a soil analysis - even just shaking up some of the soil with water in a glass jar and letting it settle for a few days - might give a more definitive answer regarding soil composition and thus allow better inferences to be drawn regarding the safe bearing capacity value for this design.

In any case, I think the 1500 pounds PER SQUARE FOOT is off by a factor of 144 (that's how many square inches are in a square foot), and probably by some additional factor due to the local soil having higher bearing capacity than poorly drained plastic clays and silts to which the lower 1500 psi value applies.

Seddon says that typical pole loading is usually between 6000 and 12000 pounds.  So, the 19000-ish pounds is high, but not crazy high.  A large enough diameter pole of a decent (structural) grade should be able to safely take that load.

Many historic New York City high rises are built on wooden pile foundations, "driven to refusal", somewhat like pushing down on the poles with the excavator, though a pile driver is typically used when driving piles for foundations.

I'll try to post a scan of Seddon's Table 5-2 on the Permies forum in the thread, for reference."

Hopefully this is helpful to someone, whether building a wofati, boat house or pole barn.

Brownberry Health Nut and Orowheat were mentioned upthread, and I definitely remember those.  After I was a bit older, my mother could sometimes get the Health Nut bread from the returned bread store.  Sometimes slightly stale Egekvist doughnuts, too, though not very often.  Also English muffins from the returned bread store, If I recall correctly.

My mother did make bread "from scratch" - mostly white, sometimes "whole wheat", meaning store bought whole wheat flour, so not truly whole meal - and later, when she had more kids to wrangle (and I'm sure I needed more than my fair share of wrangling!) and less time, the frozen loaves of dough from the freezer section at the supermarket, to be thawed, raised and baked at home.  I remember having the "heel" toasted, with butter, cinnamon and sugar, as an after school snack.

She often made quick breads from scratch: corn bread, sometimes in a muffin pan, sometimes baked in an 11X13 pan; muffins (banana nut, with pieces of walnut and made with overly ripe bananas) or quick bread loaves (less monkeying around than with greasing or lining the muffin pans); scratch made pancakes or waffles (waffles often had a white gravy, with chicken or tuna, onion and small green peas - only rarely with jam or syrup).  Baking powder biscuits were also pretty common, sometimes with the white meat gravy, as for waffles.  I think she mostly used Bisquick for biscuits when I got older, but I am fairly certain they were made "from scratch" when I was younger, because I remember the "Clabber Girl" can.

My paternal grandmother always had Siljan Rye Crisp when we visited her.  Rye crisp still takes me back to those days.  After I had graduated from university with an engineering degree, I worked nights at a grocery store, stocking shelves (engineering jobs lying pretty thinly on the ground, in those days), and I would buy a loaf of cocktail rye and make a zillion tiny rye bread and sharp Cheddar cheese sandwiches - so good!  With or without caraway, I'm a fan of rye.

These days, I'm on a low carb/keto diet for a specific health reason, so I don't eat bread very often, though I am hoping to get back into making whole meal bread from home ground whole meal flour.

Anne Miller wrote:Kitchens were usually linoleum.

A few years ago, we renovated our kitchen.  It had last been done some time in the 1950s, as best I could tell.  It had very minimal kitchen cabinets (nicely made from high quality plywood, by some local craftsman - I kept them to use in my eventual though as-yet theoretical shop), and the floor had numerous layers (3, anyway) of 12" square self-adhesive dollar store vinyl tiles over decrepit sheet linoleum.  We recycled (re-jiggered) used cabinets which had solid quarter sawn oak face frames and doors, eventually installed soapstone counters (gym-sealed MDO form ply for a while, which remained as a substrate for the stone), and replaced the old flooring with ceramic tile.

After reviewing numerous historic analogous, roughly contemporaneous with our house (which was built in stages, with several expansions), we chose to use a ~320X320mm, 13mm thick Spanish tile from Gres Aragon, rated for exterior use on patios and pool decks.  It's not the typical hex tiles often used in service spaces (kitchens, sculleries, pantries and bathrooms) from the late 1800s up to the beginning of the Second World War here in the US, but it is still somewhat traditional looking and is reasonably non-skid while still being easy to wipe up.  It was also on sale from Wayfair at the time; when the included delivery (no additional charge) was factored in, Wayfair was far and away the best price I could find on this tile among the usual suspects (Lowe's, Home Depot, etc.).  This tile does not appear in the most recent online catalog from Gres Aragon, however.  This tile isn't really period correct for the house, but it's at least a modern interpretation with a nod to tradition.

I scraped the post-WWII linoleum and its tar paper and mastic backing off the plywood subfloor as best I could, screwed down 1/4" nominal thickness cement backer board (Hardiebacker), then had a friend who specializes in tile work lay the square Spanish tiles.  I grouted and sealed the joints myself (not as tricky as getting the tiles laid flat-ish!).  We used the backer board rather than a mortar bed (the traditional way of laying tile) due to several consideration, but chief among them: firstly, no one local to me lays tile in a mortar bed anymore, out here in the hinterlands, and I wasn't about to try to learn on this project; secondly, the available vertical space was tightly constrained due to existing steam baseboard (Base-Ray) radiator/convectors and the kitchen's exterior door threshold height.    All of the latter could have been adjusted, with  more or less tear-up and cost, but there was no easy solution to the former.  So, Hardiebacker it was.

Anyway, ceramic tile (usually hex or square) seems to have also been fairly common in service areas, including kitchens, based on my investigations prior to our kitchen reno project, even though our house had sheet linoleum, as you say.

Kevin Olson wrote:In Hermann Phleps' book "The Craft of Log Building" (ISBN-13: 978-0969101918), he discusses using heavy planks for floors which protrude through the wall to the exterior.  At least one pair of planks has matching fine tapers, cut on one of the edges of each, as means of tightening the floor.  If I recall correctly, this was in an alpine European context.  The folding or fox wedge planks could be drive in from the exterior of the building to force the rest of the floor planks outward to tighten up any gaps.  But, there aren't quite enough details in Phleps for me to completely understand the system, and I am a bit leery of exposed end grain of the floor planks as regards rot.

On edit, here's a puncheon floor (i.e. smoothed on one side, left in the round on the under side):
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You can see a bit of adze smoothing of floor planks.

And, one more for reference, a traditional floor in a Finnish log cabin:
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The floor build process is interrupted by a window installation.  These planks are edge doweled, rather than tongued and grooved.

I was looking at "Byygnadsteknik och Timmermanskonst" (translated to English in the front matter summary as "Building Techniques and the Art of the Carpenter"), Peter Sjomar's 1988 doctoral dissertation at Chalmers University of Technology in Goteborg, Sweden.  The scan I have was made and posted by the University's library.  The subtitle of this work is translated as "a survey with examples from medieval timbered churches and vernacular buildings constructed on the corner-joint principle", so broadly treating historic log buildings, but with some timber framing relevant to roof structures included , as well.

Though I was looking at other things (corner notch variants, and hewing procedures inferred from tool marks), I did spot the attached plate relevant to this thread's subject, showing a method of wedging floors, whether planks or puncheons, without having exposed ends (though one version does have the plank/puncheon ends exposed to weather).  Closing the gap with a covering board like this would interrupt the floor surface, so not suitable for all applications.  The method alluded to by Phleps in "The Craft of Log Building", with full length tapered planks rather than the short folding wedges seen here, would permit a plane floor surface without interruption.  Also shown is a method of constructing an opening in a puncheon floor for access via ladder or stair from the storey below.

The right hand plate shows a puncheon floor doweled together, similar to the plank doweling used in the Finnish cabin video, linked above.

My "cheat" when making bread from white flour (usually King Arthur bread flour) has been the no-knead approach, as advocated in the "Artisan Bread in 5 Minutes a Day" books.  Stir yeast and salt into warm water, stir/fold the flour into the liquid, allow to rise loosely covered for 12 to 24 hours (temperature dependent), then refrigerate until wanted for baking.  On baking day, cut/pull off enough of the dough for each loaf, allow to stand for 1/2 hour to one hour (part of which can be during the oven's preheat cycle), then bake as usual.  Mostly, this has been loaf bread (boule, batard or 1/2 length baguette with boules in a cast iron dutch oven, batard and baguette on a pizza stone), but I have done a bit of pan bread this way, also (cinnamon raisin loaves for Christmas presents for the neighbors).  I could believe that a stronger dough would result from additional kneading, but this method has resulted in some very nice loaves, with a crispy crust and a nice crumb.

However, for freshly ground whole meal bread, this approach hasn't worked as well for me, even with long fermentation cycles - though your experience may vary from mine.  But, I am hopeful that I can, with the help of Kate Downham's new book, make a better (i.e. less brick-like!) whole meal bread this winter.

I bought the PDF of Kate's new book a few days ago, and have now read the first ~50 pages covering the basics fairly thoroughly.  I've also taken "sneak peeks" at a couple of later sections (rye and scalded flour breads, and a quick look at some gluten-free recipes).

Kate has clarified for me why so many sourdough guides differ widely in their procedures, prescriptions and proscriptions.  Simply put, there are lots of ways of making sourdough, but what will work best may vary depending on everything from the available water to the day's weather.  From her extensive experience, Kate describes how variations in temperature, timing, starter percentage, hydration, extraction percentage and much more will affect the outcome.

Most sourdough books either don't take the time to explain the subtleties, or perhaps more likely, may be written by people who lack the breadth of experience of someone like Kate.  Consequently, many books on sourdough - even from very well-regarded and esteemed sources - offer strict recipes as regards ingredients, timing and temperature, the details of which many of us would be hard-pressed to follow to the letter.  And, in my experience, even if carefully followed, may flop - edible, but not what was hoped for.

Not so Kate, who offers me the knowledge, grace and hope to try again, both with sourdough and commercially yeasted whole meal breads.  With winter now in the offing (and hence the heat of baking a welcome addition in the kitchen), I am looking forward to trying again, freshly inspired, with home ground whole meal flour.

I also plan to revisit "The Bread Builders", the "Laurel's Kitchen Bread Book", Vanessa Kimbell's book and several others on my shelf (OK, OK, in a pile next to the bed!), with eyes now informed by the help of Kate's tutelage.

As an indicator of my high regard for Kate's new book, I plan to gift paper copies to three of my relatives, all of whom are accomplished bread bakers, for Christmas this year.

David Wieland wrote:

Kevin Olson wrote: Laying the subfloor boards on the diagonal provides a stiffer floor

From the 1997 edition of Canadian Wood-Frame House Construction (p. 74):
Diagonal subflooring permits finish strip flooring to be laid either parallel to or across the joists.

Well, that makes good sense.  I wonder if that's the original reason for so doing, or if that's a convenient side effect?

Mikel Salazar wrote:Thank you Kevin for your reply.
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Another option is to use Opus signinum in flat clay tile shape pieces, but it could be a lot of work to create them. ¿Maybe not so much work thinking in the long term? Maybe in bigger sizes...

You're welcome.  I am far from expert in these matters, especially in a permie way.  A decade or so ago, before I was properly acquainted with permies, I used expanded polystyrene and 6 mil poly sheeting to create an insulated and waterproof barrier around part of my basement, since we had "water features" every time it rained hard - old house with stone walls - and no drains.  I spent several furious evenings with a shop vac, sucking up water almost as fast as it came in, and hoping and praying for the rain to ease.  Desperate times, desperate measures.

I think the opus signinum would be a good choice, but I haven't yet experimented.  It's a form of what is now termed a geopolymer, and the lime should be self-healing of small cracks.  There are some broken bricks in a vacant lot near me, which would be prime candidates for such an experiment, but I don't know who owns them, so a bit of leg work on my part may be in order to discover at what price they might be had (hopefully free for the hauling!).  I also have a sack and a half of hydrated (steam slaked) lime, left over from when I tuck-pointed the sandstone wall of my dad's basement.  But, I have enough irons in the fire that I may not get to that experiment before snow falls.  In which case, the broken bricks will keep until spring, I'm sure.

From what I can gather, most of the AGS-like projects have used plastic sheeting or EPDM roofing membrane (or pond liner), and foam insulation.  It would be good to have a proven approach that doesn't require these plasticy materials.

You'd also mentioned a high water table.  Will you be berming the earth up around your house, somewhat of an "earth sheltered" approach, to avoid digging down near the water table?

I have a small piece of raw recreational land which also has a high water table (old beach dunes and swales, likely dating from the beginning of this interglacial, now many hundreds of meters back from the present lake shore).  I think the only reasonable way of building an Oehler or Hait greenhouse structure there would be to build on grade, then berm the sand up around and over the top of the building.  It might be possible to make a dome-like structure of a concrete like substance )perhaps opus signinum or similar) over the mass of sand, then cover the dome with sand, soil, etc.  But, I don't know if that's really practical.  I'd seen an attempt to pre-cast modular dome panels, then assemble them into a shell.  Also, a vault system which used interlocking blocks, which was quite interesting, but looked somewhat unwieldy, because the blocks had to be threaded over reinforcing rod which was about half the arc length of the vault section.  I don't think either of these really appeals to me, as interesting as they are.

I do have John Hait's monograph on creating concrete box sections, but they are proportioned and sized more-or-less like marine shipping containers.

Sorry for not being able to provide any real guidance on this.

Can you do a small scale experiment to prove out the opus signinum, before you "go for broke"?

Are you considering doing a variation of john Hait's annualized geothermal?  I'm just trying to make sure I am answering the question you are asking.

Could you bury a layer of expansive clay (e.g. bentonite) as the waterproof layer, then back fill with topsoil, or gravel or whatever, depending on your intended use, lay paving stones where needed, etc?  Roots could penetrate the clay layer, especially if trees are grown on it, but even deep rooted grasses, alfalfa, etc. might.  So, I think you'd want to be cognizant of that likelihood when planting.  But, the clay should be somewhat self-healing of minor penetrations, also.  Seasonal dryness of the subsoil at the waterproofing depth might lead to cracking, though.

Clay may not be the solution...

Ken Barston wrote:In a wall the diagonal will solve racking problems if each half of the wall is oriented 90 degrees from the other half. If all of the boards are oriented the same across the complete wall it will greatly aggravate the problem.

Oh, for sure, and it's good to keep that point in mind.  Similar to knee (and elbow) braces in timber framing, both diagonals should be present within a wall to stiffen the structure against racking.  The modern scheme is to use plywood (or, heaven forefend, OSB) as the shear diaphragm to prevent racking.

But, I am more skeptical about floors racking, in general.  Not that it couldn't happen (mud flow/lahar/snow slide or dump truck mishap or something), but racking of a floor out of square in the plan view isn't very likely under ordinary circumstances, and forces that would tend to cause racking seem most likely to involve catastrophic occurrences.  However, if the additional floor material needed, and the extra time and effort to lay it, aren't impediments, then I'd say go for it.  I don't think there's much harm (other than the foregoing, and slightly longer spans between the joists), and it might be helpful.

I'd be curious just when laying subfloor on the diagonal came into vogue.  Any older structures with wooden suspended floors that I've seen or seen documented have the floor boards laid parallel (or perpendicular) to a wall - generally perpendicular to the smallest cross section floor beams/joists, though R. J. Brown in "Timber-framed Buildings of England" does show floor boards laid between, and let into, closely spaced floor beams.  I may be able to find an illustration of this approach.  But, I'm not anywhere close to enough of an architectural historian to be able to point to when people began laying diagonal subfloor.  On edit: I've attached a PDF of a page from Brown's book, showing historic methods of suspended flooring on the other side of the water from me.