Forums:

Do you bake bread as often as you would like? What are your biggest breadmaking roadblocks?

Kate Downham

gardener & author

Posts: 3273

Location: Tasmania

1986

I like...

posted 5 months ago

13
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

I’m determined to create a book that will help people to bake more bread, and I’m wondering if I’ve addressed every possible issue...

What are the things that have prevented you from making your own sourdough or yeast bread in the past?

Please feel free to give feedback and suggestions here to help get more people baking great bread at home!

The main roadblocks I can see are lack of time, lack of organisation, and unpredictable lives. I’m creating some strategies and recipes to address these - are any of these things that make it difficult for you to make bread? Are they something that you’ve overcome? How have you overcome these difficulties?

Also a couple of other things I think may be roadblocks for some might be perfectionism and analysis paralysis - too many bread experts saying that you absolutely have to do this and absolutely can’t do that, and conflicting experts saying different things, it’s hard to know where to start - I’m addressing this by going through every possible option for natural breadmaking and explaining why it is done, so that the reader can choose for themselves what steps to take, and create recipes and timelines that work for them.

What other things might prevent people from making bread as often as they would like?

Natural Small Batch Cheesemaking A Year in an Off-Grid Kitchen Backyard Dairy Goats My website @NourishingPermaculture

PEP - BB10 Badge (verified skill)
Skill verified by paul wheaton

animal care - air badge (verified skill)
Skill verified by Ash Jackson

textiles - air badge (verified skill)
Skill verified by Ash Jackson

Food Prep and Preservation - air badge (verified skill)
Skill verified by Ash Jackson

foraging - air badge (verified skill)
Skill verified by Mike Barkley

commerce - air badge (verified skill)
Skill verified by Nicole Alderman

Shahar Goldin

Posts: 21

posted 5 months ago

11
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

I bake sourdough about as often as I’d like, especially since I developed a process around a countertop version of the Estella dough mixer (specifically I have a vevor knockoff of it that cost about 450 dollars). Process is: feed starter the night before, weigh starter and water in a bowl, pour into mixer, weigh flour in a dry bowl, put in mixer, turn on mixer, go do other things for 5-8 minutes, turn off mixer, wait 20 minutes, add salt and a bit more water, turn on mixer, watch until dough is cohesive, turn off mixer, set a timer for 20 minutes, when the timer goes off turn on the mixer for 30 seconds or so. Repeat 6-8 times, then shape loaves into baskets and let rise for 90-120 minutes. Then bake in my countertop steam oven (20 minutes at 490° at 100% humidity, 10 minutes at 400° at 0% humidity)

I would pay, I dunno, probably 600 dollars, for a version of this mixer with an integrated scale and a way to remotely turn it on and off (or even program a schedule/recipe). The steam oven is quite a luxury, the people who made it got bought by Electrolux and discontinued the version that cost 500 dollars to release a new version that has AI Slop (tm) and costs 1100 dollars and has a 10 dollar subscription fee. It’s notoriously prone to failure and difficult to repair. If it breaks I’m very likely to buy a commercial combi steam oven for my home kitchen.

I got the mixer to make brioche. I still don’t make brioche as often as I’d like because I have to make a poolish, and wait for 4 hours, and then rising/stretching/folding/shaping brioche takes like, 6ish hours, and if I don’t start right when I wake up, or forget to do a step on time, or if it looks like it needs more rising time, then I have to bake it after bedtime or I have to make it slow down enough to bake the next morning, which is a hassle. So basically if I don’t have poolish ready by noon I don’t make brioche anymore, same goes for baguettes.

Aside from these quite silly technical challenges, my biggest obstacle to baking more is that my partner keeps complaining about “simple sugars” and “cholesterol tests” and other nonsense. My mother also complains endlessly about how many bread calories she eats when she visits because the bread tastes so good.

Nina Surya

rocket scientist

Posts: 357

Location: in the Middle Earth of France (18), zone 8a-8b

191

I like...

posted 5 months ago

12
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

I occasionally bake bread, but would love to get to the rhythm of baking sourdough bread. The trouble there is that I don't have a starter.
I've tried to start a starter a couple of times, but failed.
I also got a starter once from someone, but it didn't do anything - at all, ever. So I'm assuming the starter was dead. I did feed it, but nothing happened.

* Follow your curiosity , Do what you Love *
Permaculture page on Simperi website | Antique and vintage finds from France TreasureChestTales

Tereza Okava

steward & manure connoisseur

Posts: 4360

Location: South of Capricorn

2368

I like...

posted 5 months ago

14
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

i think you're doing well to address the "overanalysis" aspect that has permeated sourdough/baking culture (and beermaking). Reading some of the things out there I might feel like if I can't use one specific percentage protein flour and maintain at perfect temp X I cannot make bread (and my 88-year old mother in law would laugh and laugh). Especially when you're in places where you can't (or won't) get specific italian 00 flour on Amazon, for example, it can feel hopeless.

I realize this is not something you can do anything about, but the reason I stopped making sourdough was the skyrocketing price of cooking gas-- it was no longer feasible. I don't have space for a rocket oven here in my urban setting, but a few years ago I got myself an air fryer oven, which (wouldn't you know) turns out to make really good sourdough. I revived my starter recently to get back into the groove. Maybe consider encouraging people to try other baking options? In the meantime, most of the bread we have been making was steamed (Chinese buns) or cooked in a plan (turkish flatbread, etc), and occasionally even in the rice cooker.

Tereza Okava

steward & manure connoisseur

Posts: 4360

Location: South of Capricorn

2368

I like...

posted 5 months ago

10
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

Nina Surya wrote:I've tried to start a starter a couple of times, but failed.
I also got a starter once from someone, but it didn't do anything - at all, ever. So I'm assuming the starter was dead. I did feed it, but nothing happened.

I know this is off topic, Nina, but if you open up a thread here we have a bunch of sourdough bakers (including myself) who would be happy to help you make a starter from scratch and get baking! Tell us what you've tried so far, we can troubleshoot, and you can start again.

Nina Surya

rocket scientist

Posts: 357

Location: in the Middle Earth of France (18), zone 8a-8b

191

I like...

posted 5 months ago

8
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

Tereza Okava wrote: ...if you open up a thread here ...

Thank you Tereza! Heading that way NOW :)

PS. The link took me to somewhere else, but I posted my question here.

* Follow your curiosity , Do what you Love *
Permaculture page on Simperi website | Antique and vintage finds from France TreasureChestTales

Tanya White

Posts: 88

Location: Western NC, zone 6B/7A

posted 5 months ago

12
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

Lack of time is the biggest. Also, even with a good schedule/routine, stuff happens (i.e. I got off work 2 hours late and am exhausted and the schedule is thrown off). I end up making discard recipes a lot more often. I don't love the fact that I HAVE to feed the starter. While I actually enjoy a routine, sometimes things get overwhelming and one more thing that I HAVE to do at a very specific time can be a deterrent of sorts. I guess what I'm getting at is I want to figure out how to be more flexible when it comes to baking sourdough bread. I guess I could bake other types of bread, but I really prefer sourdough in terms of nutrition.

One more thing maybe off-topic: I would love to find a sourdough bread recipe that works with my oval romertopf clay baker with glazed bottom (it should not be preheated empty).

Rio Rose

Posts: 62

I like...

posted 5 months ago

10
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

Hi Kate! Cheese and now sourdough, hooray and thank you!

I've been doing the sourdough bread dance every week for several years now, but still have much to learn. My goal was always to be able to bake like my ancestors, without a scale, without analyzing hydration, just by my hands in the dough. But first I had to learn the basics. I delved deep into recipes and forums and measured every last particle to the gram like the experts said you must. For years. Technical and intimidating, both.

Once I started getting comfortable with that process, I wanted whole grain that I milled at home, not the shelf-stable stuff on grocery shelves. Fresh-milled flours perform quite differently, and 100% whole grain is harder to make lofty. My loaves went from wondrous to wonky.

Every layer of this process that I uncover, there is another beneath. I am only just getting to a place where I can make a delicious intuitive whole grain bread (no measuring of flour, starter, water or salt). Though I have yet to make a whole grain loaf that rises to the heavens like that sifted shelf stuff.

Still - years later, the number one hardest thing is the timing of it all, and fitting that into a life chock full of other demands. Now that I'm using fresh-milled flours, I am soaking them anywhere from 4-12 hours prior to adding starter. It makes a difference, but is an added time constraint that takes my bakes to three days of process.
Even without the soaking, it's a long haul, the timing of which is dictated by your wee sour-inducing beasties, not you.

How then, to not be held hostage by your bread baking schedule? My dream sourdough baking book would contain tips and tricks for just that.

As an example - and this is something I've never read in any book or forum, but I recently learned (out of necessity, as midnight came and went) it's possible to retard (refrigerate) your dough during bulk ferment instead of the traditional final proof, if your life blows up and you can't keep waiting on it. The bread that emerged from this reverse process, was excellent. That was a freeing lesson!

In hindsight I think it is so much more important to have a good understanding of the science and why bakers do all those technical moves, the secret lives of yeast and bacteria. That good understanding will allow us novice bakers to pivot, explore, make it more of a creative process than simply following another’s route.

You’ve nailed all my issues - the perfection and analysis paralysis is real too. But I’d tell my early baking self that sourdough is like the rest of life, you can’t let fear of messing up stop you. And I would never have believed this in the beginning, but I’ve eaten every single one of my failed lumpy brick-like loaves, and loved them. Eat your failure! You might be surprised at how delicious it is. It’s fun, too. I look forward to reading your work!

Jay Angler

master steward

Posts: 13392

Location: Pacific Wet Coast

7823

I like...

posted 5 months ago

11
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

I trust you to admit that ecosystem is everything... Encourage people to try different tools and approaches and figure out which one works for them, and remembering that what works in the winter may not work in the summer in their climate.

Game changers for me:
1. We were given a good quality (Zojirushi) bread maker. I mix up dry ingredients in jars for 10 loaves, so all I have to do is grab a jar out of the drawer, tip it in the pan, add the wet ingredients, and push the start button. It's not *real* homemade bread, but it has real ingredients and nothing hidden that I don't want!

2. No-knead bread - we mix the ingredients in a stainless bowl in the evening, preheat our ceramic cast iron Dutch oven for 1/2 hour in the morning, scrape the dough from the bowl into the heated pan, put the lid on and bake for 1/2 hour. Remove the lid and reduce the oven temperature a little, and it's ready to tip onto a rack for cooling. Bonus, it takes the chill off the house in the morning. (Baker's Guide to Home Heating - if you're a bit chilly, bake something!)

3. I read somewhere that if there's dark liquid on top of your sourdough starter, it's hungry. I had already figured out, that based on my need for bread, I should only feed it 1/4 cup rye flour and 1/4 cup well water (yeasties aren't keen on chlorine so try to avoid chlorinated water) and immediately put it in the fridge in a glass jar with a cover held on with an elastic band. This way the sourdough usually goes a week without needing to be either used or fed. Mine lives in a 1 liter glass jar and has only blown it's top once when my son over fed it.

4. If I'm on my own, cut my loaf of bread in half as soon as it cools, double bag and freeze 1/2. Alternatively, take a half loaf to a friend. It doesn't take much longer to make it or much more cost or any more fuel, so rather than letting it go stale or moldy (mold is a big risk in my ecosystem), I let it go to a good home!

Visit Redhawk's soil series: https://permies.com/wiki/redhawk-soil
How permies.com works: https://permies.com/wiki/34193/permies-works-links-threads

oddball - sand badge (verified skill)
Skill verified by Mike Haasl

textiles - air badge (verified skill)
Skill verified by Mike Haasl

dimensional lumber woodworking - air badge (verified skill)
Skill verified by jordan barton

Food Prep and Preservation - air badge (verified skill)
Skill verified by Leigh Tate

greywater and willow feeders - air badge (verified skill)
Skill verified by Leigh Tate

Josh Hoffman

pollinator

Posts: 459

Location: Louisville, MS. Flirting with 8B

I like...

posted 5 months ago

10
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

The main roadblocks I can see are lack of time, lack of organisation, and unpredictable lives. I’m creating some strategies and recipes to address these - are any of these things that make it difficult for you to make bread? Are they something that you’ve overcome? How have you overcome these difficulties?

I think with our household, it may be more related to the quantity of things needed, or in other words, scale. It seems that most books we read are about a single guy or an older couple or some variation in between. One or two people to consider. A lot of time, larger numbers of people are not addressed and if they are, it is more along the lines of a community. Our kids are 8YO down to incubating so they do help out but not like an adult can.

We are fixin' to be a household of 8 (I am a displaced hillbilly). Anything that we do is done with that quantity in mind 3x a day. Our largest barrier to entry is simply scale. For example; Collectively, we eat 10-12 eggs a day, everyday (2-4 in homemade pancake mix). So when we got chickens, we needed, and need to maintain, at least 15 reliable laying hens. We eat at least 2 rabbits a week, 2 chickens a week, beef, pork, you can see where this goes. When we do start a new addition to our homestead life, it is with a scale that most do not need to consider.

Loaf bread for us is on a scale of at least 4 loafs a week minimum, some weeks up to 8, we average 6.

I used to do all the baking back when I just went to work and came home to our 1 bedroom apartment in a suburb of Dallas TX and it was just my bride and me. I had a grain mill to grind all my flour and recipes that were very good but they had over a dozen ingredients and needed to be monitored closely. I'd add in dried and fresh fruits, different cheeses, etc. Very romantic. Fast forward to multiple kids, a homestead, part time remote jobs for me, and now I am delegating the baking to others.

I came up with the most basic recipe I could through trial an error for yeast bread during the transition. The full recipe used to be over 12 ingredients but down to the acceptable basics it became:

3-1/4 cup lukewarm water
~9 cups flour
2T active dry yeast
6T sugar
1t salt.

Mix yeast, sugar, water, wait. Mix the rest of ingredients until wet but workable, form in pan and rise 1-2 hours. bake at 350 for 30-35 mins. Makes 2 loafs

After my bride and the oldest kids got this one under control, I could start progress back to the original recipe.

First we switched 1cup water for 1 cup milk.
Then we went back to all water but used 1 cup powdered milk.
Then we went down to 2T sugar to activate the yeast and 4T honey, then to 2T sugar, 2T honey and 2T molasses.
Then we let rise as one lump for the first 1-2 hours, punched down and formed and added a second rise of an hour or until size desired.

There are some ingredients left to add (oil, egg wash, etc.) and I like to braid it sometimes or roll it sometimes when I make it but we'll eventually get everyone proficient at those techniques. We are about 3/4 of the original recipe and it has been enjoyable eating it from the original recipe to our current iteration.

Currently, the recipe is:

3-1/4 cups warm water
1 cup powdered milk
6 cups whole wheat, 2-4 cups al purpose flour
2T active dry yeast
2T sugar
2T honey
2T molasses
1t salt

Mix in one wet but workable lump and rise for 1-2 hours. Punch down, form and rise for an hour or until desired size. Bake at 350 for 30-35 mins.

I think that instead of having multiple baking recipes for, lets say, yeast bread, just have multiple iterations of one recipe. Basic recipe ingredients, moderate recipe ingredients, advanced recipe ingredients. This way, readers can decide what they have the time and desire for knowing that they'd be able to scale up or back on the ingredients to a recipe they mastered. No matter if they mastered the basic or advanced recipe.

PS/Edit: Back to the scale thing, I am the only person in my household that can currently work a 4 loaf lump. If anyone else does it, they make a 2 loaf lump.

"The genius of American farm experts is very well demonstrated here: they can take a solution and divide it neatly into two problems." -Wendell Berry

Darby Rules

Posts: 1

posted 5 months ago

6
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

I bake sourdough bread every week for my husband and me now that I have this simple, no stretch & fold, method: https://youtube.com/shorts/y4RDRECwZzM?si=cu5tw8nYIZjK6YeU
I’ve adapted her recipe to use 75% (600 g) freshly ground wheat berries using my Mock Mill (which I love). The balance (200g) uses bread flour. I typically bake two loaves and will freeze the 2nd if we don’t use it.

Dale Poole

Posts: 7

posted 5 months ago

14
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

This is going to sound mean, even though I don't mean it (ha ha) that way.

Stop striving for perfection! All the nonsense I hear about baking being a science that requires impeccable measurements, just stop it! And stop using the weird French method of making sour dough with measuring combining and then discarding most of the result in the garbage each day for 7 days! Not to mention having to put the dough in an equally weird basket to proof ...and on and on and on.

Instead get yourself an "old fashioned style" cookbook from the deep south or Appalachia and follow that recipe. When I left home at 17, the first thing I taught myself to cook was bread. I got a copy of the Deaf Smith County Cookbook from my local 'health food store', which has been my cooking bible for 50 years! A nice, simple, no-worry recipe made in regular loaf pans. The real secret is having patience with the overnight timing of making starter and proofing the loaf. If you've ever made bread, then you know that's were most of the taste and texture comes from, which is common to almost all breads.

If you want to do fancy designs with razor blades and what not, or if you're terribly afraid of not getting it exactly right the first time, ignore all I have said.

We're making food, not fashion, although it occasionally *does* turn out quite artsy at times.

As for broken starters, I sometimes go months without using my starter. It sits in the door of my refrigerator long enough for the liquid to rise to the top of starter. It's very dark, almost black colour which will surely give you the willies. You can pour it off or just mix it back in without harm. It has never failed.

Duncan Shannon

Posts: 6

posted 5 months ago

7
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

My main roadblock is (perceived?) poor alignment with a diet focused on protein and fat than carbs. We try and eat protein heavy - so it just doesn't feel like bread had much of a place in our marco targeted eating plan. Plenty of carbs in vegetables. Would love to hear how other people include it in their diet especially if you track your macros.

Jane Mulberry

master pollinator

Posts: 1081

Location: East of England/ Northeast Bulgaria

411

I like...

posted 5 months ago

7
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

Tereza Okava wrote: a few years ago I got myself an air fryer oven, which (wouldn't you know) turns out to make really good sourdough. I revived my starter recently to get back into the groove. Maybe consider encouraging people to try other baking options? In the meantime, most of the bread we have been making was steamed (Chinese buns) or cooked in a plan (turkish flatbread, etc), and occasionally even in the rice cooker.

Tereza, would you share what type of air fryer you're using? My biggest block to baking bread again is that where we currently live in the UK has a tiny kitchen with an unreliable oven.

That, a husband on the autistic spectrum who hates the mess baking can create, plus only having about 1 square foot of spare counter space makes baking bread a huge challenge.

I'm only 64! That's not to old to learn to be a permie, right?

Josh Hoffman

pollinator

Posts: 459

Location: Louisville, MS. Flirting with 8B

I like...

posted 5 months ago

6
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

Jane Mulberry wrote:

Tereza Okava wrote: a few years ago I got myself an air fryer oven, which (wouldn't you know) turns out to make really good sourdough. I revived my starter recently to get back into the groove. Maybe consider encouraging people to try other baking options? In the meantime, most of the bread we have been making was steamed (Chinese buns) or cooked in a plan (turkish flatbread, etc), and occasionally even in the rice cooker.

Tereza, would you share what type of air fryer you're using? My biggest block to baking bread again is that where we currently live in the UK has a tiny kitchen with an unreliable oven.

That, a husband on the autistic spectrum who hates the mess baking can create, plus only having about 1 square foot of spare counter space makes baking bread a huge challenge.

Jane, I am responding here because we bake our bread in an air fryer oven. We bake 4-8 loafs a week, We can do 2 at a time in the Ninja Foodie XL but it is a little bigger than 1 SQFT.

"The genius of American farm experts is very well demonstrated here: they can take a solution and divide it neatly into two problems." -Wendell Berry

Jesse Glessner

Posts: 470

Location: Indiana

posted 5 months ago

6
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

Jane Mulberry wrote:

Tereza Okava wrote: That, a husband on the autistic spectrum who hates the mess baking can create, plus only having about 1 square foot of spare counter space makes baking bread a huge challenge.

Hello Jane: I ran across this TWO Ingredient recipe recently and tried it and it worked great! It isn't exactly 'bread' in the sense of a 'loaf of bread' - it is Biscuits!

The recipe is in the attached file. Download, Save, Print, and in no time you have very nice flaky Biscuits hot out of the oven in little time. It takes up about a 12" square of cabinet space.

Just make sure you use the Heavy Cream (whipping cream).

And you could add a pinch of salt and sugar if you like sweet biscuits.

Filename: 2-Ingredient-Cream-Biscuits.pdf

File size: 43 Kbytes

[Download 2-Ingredient-Cream-Biscuits.pdf]

Download Attachment

JayGee

Derek Thille

gardener

Posts: 462

Location: Southern Manitoba...bald(ish) prairie, zone 3ish

222

I like...

posted 5 months ago

11
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

I'm not sure I really have anything of value to add, but here's a few thoughts.

Our biggest limitation is probably our kitchen design...four doors off a roughly square room means it isn't a good space to get anything done, especially if one is not doing a good job of policing their workspace (i.e. cleaning up, doing dishes as they're made, etc). It just turns out we don't have much counter space which makes things a bit more difficult. We do wind up using the dining room table at times.

That said, our adult daughter made 4 sourdough loaves one day recently...it's helpful that a cooler on the back porch these days is extra freezer space.

I had actually signed up for a sourdough course some time since the lockdowns began. She Who Must Be Obeyed and I, along with our daughter, took most of it in. This was one of those folks who weighs everything and was very precise. Yet, she'd be weighing water without thinking (1 ml of water has a mass of 1 g...so if you need 100 grams of water, it's 100 ml...you don't need to slowly drip from a container - just measure about how much you need by volume, then you can fine-tune with the scale if you'd like). She used a stiff starter, which she raved about, but we struggled with a bit. After we got started with it, over time we adjusted what we did and got a bit less finicky. At least it was a starting point for us. She Who Must Be Obeyed wound up getting some starter from one of her colleagues and that worked better for us. This course did give us some nice recipes, including some based on discard.

We follow a YouTube channel from Azerbaijan. It's such a change of pace when the grandmother is baking - I don't think we've ever seen her measure anything. She bakes yeast-based breads, of quite a variety, and typically in a wood-fired environment. You wonder if things are pre-measured without the camera around, but it certainly doesn't seem that way. The other thing I take away from her baking and cooking is that, with all the animals around, they do fine...in an environment that would give a North American health inspector a heart attack. On a side note, when we visited Peru was probably the first time I had such a thought about health inspectors. At any rate, baking like this is a good reminder that our grandmothers and great-grandmothers certainly didn't have the digital scales we use today attempting to be so exacting. My father was one of seven - he'd said my grandmother baked bread daily. She passed away when I was about 3, but my vague recollection was that every time we stopped by (same small town), there were always cookies.

In line with Dale's comment, decades ago when I left home, I wound up with the "Cookbook for College Kids" - I don't recall bread being in there, but there was some baking. It was done in a style to make things in the kitchen simpler, especially for those who may not have had an example that helped them get a start. Aside from learning stuff growing up, I worked part-time at the local bakery for three years in high school, so I did manage to pick up a few things.

Duncan - I feel for you. I have striven to cut back on baked goods. We aren't in any sort of a strict diet, but I take solace in the statement that sourdough is better for you. I don't know if that's just a line, but it makes me feel better. In my health journey that I started nearly 4 years and 30 odd pounds ago, I've come to believe that it's more about real food that is ideally chemical free and as close to origin as possible (that is, I'd rather have cheese that doesn't list a bunch of extra ingredients when you know it comes from a bacterial process with milk). I've also come to believe that bio-individuality is why there can be so many different diets that are backed by medical professionals that show positive results for people, even when they're opposite. Now to get off that tangent.

As others have noted, I think there needs to be some acknowledgement about the variations that climate can have - temperature, humidity, elevation (related to air pressure I believe) and so forth. Baking in Denver isn't the same as baking in New Orleans. If people can be armed with some of the rules of thumb (i.e. for this much elevation, add/remove this much of X).

I'd also enjoy seeing a discussion of flours and the properties thereof as well as different types of grains and the impact that can have on your baking. As has been noted by others, we try to use more whole wheat flour, but it's a bit challenging getting it right.

I'd also like to see variations...things you can try...make it fun...do something out of the ordinary.

Now that I've blathered on too long I should shut down. I'm not the primary baker in our household, but I do some.

Working toward a permaculture-strong retirement near sunny Sperling.

Gina Capri

Posts: 14

posted 5 months ago

10
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

My biggest roadblocks are time (I work full time and have four, soon to be five, kids, and am notoriously distractible when cooking), and also that I always seem to have difficulty finding a warm enough place in the kitchen for the dough to rise properly. I have tried in the oven so at least there are no drafts, and I preheat it for a minute or two at a low temperature then turn it off so it’s warm enough. That works okay but not reliably. So I get discouraged because then I have to let it rise even longer, and end up still sometimes getting a flatter loaf than I want.
Also, we don’t like the taste of sourdough, so that isn’t going to happen. And sometimes my kids aren’t interested in eating a whole loaf of bread, so then part of it goes bad. That discourages me.
But if anyone has tips about making a warm enough place to raise the dough, I’d maybe try at least baking cinnamon rolls- my daughter loves them. Or French bread/baguettes- we do eat those about weekly.

Ra Kenworth

Posts: 614

Location: Iqaluit, Nunavut zone 0 / Mont Sainte-Marie, QC zone 4a

105

posted 5 months ago

9
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

Biggest roadblock: have to cut down on carbs now I've had surgery and am mobile again.
I could do a sourdough bun or two but they're sooo good.
So rather than a whole small loaf, I do a low gluten crêpe on occasion.

Jean Rudd

Posts: 34

Location: Front Range, Colorado: Zone 5b

I like...

posted 5 months ago

10
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

Dale Poole wrote: As for broken starters, I sometimes go months without using my starter.

Unfortunately, I have been killing starters for a long time. 20 years ago, I would bake yeast bread regularly, then I had to go gluten free. The gluten-free breads or sourdoughs just aren't that good. And I'm not convinced GF has helped me that much, so I'm shifting back to a Weston-Price attitude toward bread -- and trying to re-learn sourdough. My starters die due to sheer neglect-- and they get worse than just the black liquid. They get that off smell.

But I completely agree with you all about making it easier. I remember that once you have your routine, you are usually set. I just heard of the "scrapings" method, where you never create a discard, which I think is Dale's point -- stop making it harder than you have to.

Good luck with the book.

~ jean (self-learner, homeschooling mom, DIY'er)
Teach the next generation by teaching them to love learning | https://selfeducatingfamily.com/

PEP - BB5 Badge (verified skill)
Skill verified by gir bot

Monica Strazz

Posts: 22

Location: Tremonton, UT United States Zone 6B

I like...

posted 5 months ago

11
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

Tanya White wrote:Lack of time is the biggest. Also, even with a good schedule/routine, stuff happens (i.e. I got off work 2 hours late and am exhausted and the schedule is thrown off). I end up making discard recipes a lot more often. I don't love the fact that I HAVE to feed the starter. While I actually enjoy a routine, sometimes things get overwhelming and one more thing that I HAVE to do at a very specific time can be a deterrent of sorts. I guess what I'm getting at is I want to figure out how to be more flexible when it comes to baking sourdough bread. I guess I could bake other types of bread, but I really prefer sourdough in terms of nutrition.

One more thing maybe off-topic: I would love to find a sourdough bread recipe that works with my oval romertopf clay baker with glazed bottom (it should not be preheated empty).

Hi....loving this post...like many of you I've tried many recipes but recently found a Youtube recipe that can make sourdough bread in 8 hours...I simply love it! When I first made it I thought I had messed it up royally but it was great. I have made this in the dutch oven like the video but when I put it in the romertopf clay baker...what a difference in the inside texture. Amazing, moist like, chewy awesomeness...if you like it that way...you can tell it was more steamed during the cooking process. I love it...only 4 ingredients, and I don't spend more than 15-30 minutes total time making it...The starter really does all the work. I do like to let it sit overnight in the fridge...sometimes 2 days...the dough is so flexible...so very hard to mess it up....at least that has been my experience...hope that link works...

Shannon Sell

Posts: 5

posted 5 months ago

9
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

I use fresh milled flour. Most recipes online and in cookbooks use all purpose store bought sifted flour. I've not had much luck translating recipes. If I had good recipes or at least some working knowledge about how to use freshly milled... What I need to do to get a good loaf.. How to knead a sticky mess.. When to use flour or oil.. Those things might be helpful.

I need one master fresh milled recipe that can be bread rolls, burger buns, and a sandwich loaf. If I add a bit extra honey it can be a sweet bread recipe. I also need tortillas that will fold and not rip, English muffins that are cragly, biscuits and bagels that can pull apart instead of crumble to bits.. The flavor and nutrition are there along with the long term storage of whole grains. But it doesn't perform well for what I have in mind for them... so I keep going back to store bought.

So far I have mastered a sourdough recipe. I make once a week. Either 4 or 6 boules. I mix it in the morning. Slow ferment over the day and stretch/fold to develop gluten, at night shape and keep them covered in the fridge, pulling them out to bake as needed. I've kept them in the fridge for as much as 5 days with no problems. I keep the starter in the fridge too so I don't have to feed it all the time.

Thekla McDaniels

gardener

Posts: 3382

Location: Western Slope Colorado.

699

I like...

posted 5 months ago

10
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

Ah, here comes another book!

The reason I don’t bake much these days is that a woman moved to town and opened a sourdough bakery. They buy local grain and mill it, it’s organic, and it’s really really good. That’s an idea for one of your future bakers. This bakery sells out. If you go a couple hours before closing time there’s often a sign out that they are out of everything they baked for the day.

Used to be I baked all my bread.

As for the barriers to baking, I think you have covered it. People are intimidated by the process and afraid to try.

Seems like they need encouragement and support, and the process needs demystification.

I can’t wait to see what you do with this idea!

PS, I’m baking your sourdough crackers
a lot these days, great Christmas presents.

Best luck: satisfaction

Greatest curse, greed

Kevin Olson

gardener

Posts: 395

Location: The Old Northwest, South of Superior

217

I like...

posted 5 months ago

10
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

Duncan Shannon wrote:My main roadblock is (perceived?) poor alignment with a diet focused on protein and fat than carbs. We try and eat protein heavy - so it just doesn't feel like bread had much of a place in our marco targeted eating plan. Plenty of carbs in vegetables. Would love to hear how other people include it in their diet especially if you track your macros.

This.

I am trying to follow a ketogenic diet, with low to very low carbohydrates, to address a particular health condition. Fitting bread into this lifestyle choice isn't straightforward.

However, of late I have been adding in a few slow carbs, high in fiber and eaten with fats. As such, I have been occasionally grinding fresh whole meal flour (hard red and/or white winter wheat) and making long fermented yeasted bread (at least 12 hours of fermentation time, but often more like 24 hours). One impediment is that the dough's time to ripeness seems to be quite variable, even when using temperature and humidity controlled proofing box and weighed ingredients. Baking in a pre-heated cast iron dutch oven has improved the results, for me.

I'd like to try making a desem starter a la "Laurel's Kitchen Bread Book", but haven't yet tried it. The major impediment to that is that it requires a purported 10 pounds (!) of freshly ground flour. Ten pounds? Really? I mean, if you are feeding a large family, or baking for a communal neighborhood kitchen, that is probably reasonable. But for two people, that seems rather excessive, especially given that I am far from an expert baker, and might not even be able to produce something that I'd feel comfortable giving away.

I'd also like to try a vollkorn rye, using sprouted rye, with very long fermentation times (up to 4 days seems to be within reason).

Previously, I had been frequently making white, slow fermented bread (using King Arthur Bread Flour), following the "Artisan Bread in 5 Minutes A Day" method. This is a no-knead, batch made dough, which is then refrigerated before baking. That process fit into my lifestyle, prior to my dietary changes, so I baked several times per week, a loaf or two at a time.

"Ah, but a man's reach should exceed his grasp,
Or what's a heaven for?"
Andrea del Sarto by Robert Browning

Cécile Stelzer Johnson

pollinator

Posts: 1481

Location: zone 4b, sandy, Continental D

411

posted 5 months ago

11
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

It is silly, but I love my bread to be sliced, and when I get it out of the oven, it is so soft and delicious that I end up flattening it by cutting it.
Another thing is : I love potato bread but need a really good recipe. A good slice of potato bread is already like a side dish all on its own...

$10.00 is a donation. $1,000 is an investment, $1,000,000 is a purchase.

Jay Angler

master steward

Posts: 13392

Location: Pacific Wet Coast

7823

I like...

posted 5 months ago

8
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

Gina Capri wrote: I have tried in the oven so at least there are no drafts, and I preheat it for a minute or two at a low temperature then turn it off so it’s warm enough. That works okay but not reliably.

We're doing an overnight no-knead rise, but our house can be pretty cold at night. I microwave my hot rice pack that I use for injuries, set my metal bowl of dough on top with a kitchen plate as a lid, then put a towel or 3 over the whole works.

Adding some heated thermal mass to your oven might make it more consistent - hot brick comes to mind.

Visit Redhawk's soil series: https://permies.com/wiki/redhawk-soil
How permies.com works: https://permies.com/wiki/34193/permies-works-links-threads

Kirsty Pollock

Posts: 30

posted 5 months ago

9
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

I lucked out and got starter from our local summer market baker. I keep it in the fridge. I make bread once a week, feed starter night before, mix but don't knead the bread (usually 300g Spelt 200g Whole Grain Rye, 80g starter, 320ml water h it's REALLY sticky, you could not knead it if you tried) and leave 12-24 hrs in my pantry (pretty cool temperature, maybe 14C.). Then I put it in a loaf tin (usually with parchment paper, but also tried oiled and scattered with polenta) cover and let rise for 1hr on the "dough" setting of my small "does everything" oven, then leave it another hour until it hits the top of the tin. Then bake for about 1hr, maybe 1.5 at 180C. If I have had the gas oven on I'll use that but it's not really got any effective temperature control, and it's pretty hot, so no more than an hour. Let cool totally before turning out if using oil/polenta. If using the baking paper maybe turn out and bake 20 mins more on a rack

Provisos: this is a German recipe and makes German bread. A pretty solid brick, by some people's standards. The crust is usually very thick and crunchy.

The inner is totally fine by local standards. Not as good as the bakers sourdough by any means, but in winter there's no market...

It lasts wrapped in in its paper (then a plastic bag once totally cool). It lasts all week, last few days as toast or broken up in soup.

Again:
THIS IS NOT A. FLUFFY SPRINGY CHEWY BREAD!
IT IS GOOD SOLID GERMAN BREAD!

I like that, not everyone does. But it's no hassle to make. I've also made "deep dish" pizza with it - it doesn't need to rise as long for that, and there my overenthusiastic oven really shines!

Burt Crews

Posts: 8

posted 5 months ago

7
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

The biggest road block is my doctor. I love to bake bread and cookies. But, I also love real butter on my warm bread. Along with my homemade jam and preserves. My will power is not great enough not to enjoy my baking.

Tereza Okava

steward & manure connoisseur

Posts: 4360

Location: South of Capricorn

2368

I like...

posted 5 months ago

10
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

Jane Mulberry wrote:Tereza, would you share what type of air fryer you're using? My biggest block to baking bread again is that where we currently live in the UK has a tiny kitchen with an unreliable oven.

Jane, I have a 25L one, it's several years old and out of production (and filthy as all heck) but I love it. It fits a boule (on a pan with a stainless steel bowl over it), or a bundt pan, a large round cake pan, or a rectangular baking pan for a smallish cake (I bought a baking pan that was just the right size to fit on the tracks that hold the racks up).
I expected it would use a lot of electricity but it doesn't (and we're making out like bandits compared to how I used to pay for gas). Of course, I'm no longer baking 4 loaves of bread at a time the way I used to, and you generally do better baking something low than high (rolls versus loaf bread) to avoid burning on top and raw dough in the middle.
It is also important to know you have to convert the times and temps for baking, usually you need to go 25F lower and 20% less time, maybe? I forget but I have a conversion table I keep next to the oven. It's no big deal, really.
And as for space- I bought this to replace a toaster oven that died. My counter has space for a microwave and a toaster oven, nothing more. You can adjust the functions to toast or use the air fryer (convection). I also use it to prepare lots and lots of veggies, it's easier than anything. (there are some threads here about recipes for air fryers, I'm not the only big fan here).

air-fryer-png.png

Jane Mulberry

master pollinator

Posts: 1081

Location: East of England/ Northeast Bulgaria

411

I like...

posted 5 months ago

9
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

Tereza Okava wrote:
Jane, I have a 25L one, it's several years old and out of production (and filthy as all heck) but I love it. It fits a boule (on a pan with a stainless steel bowl over it), or a bundt pan, a large round cake pan, or a rectangular baking pan for a smallish cake (I bought a baking pan that was just the right size to fit on the tracks that hold the racks up).

Ah, that's great, thank you so much, Tereza! There are very similar ones being made still, and selling for a price that's in our budget. Knowing the size is helpful. I also want to find one with the ferment and dehydrate settings, that will allow a temp of 30C, which I don't think these ones do. But knowing the size and wattage that work for you is very useful!

Josh, Thanks for your suggestion. The Ninja Foodie looks a wonderful device! It is probably bigger than we can accommodate. Also I wanted one with a ferment setting for proofing bread and yoghurt making, and I don't think that does.

I'm only 64! That's not to old to learn to be a permie, right?

Jane Mulberry

master pollinator

Posts: 1081

Location: East of England/ Northeast Bulgaria

411

I like...

posted 5 months ago

6
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

Jesse Glessner wrote:

Hello Jane: I ran across this TWO Ingredient recipe recently and tried it and it worked great! It isn't exactly 'bread' in the sense of a 'loaf of bread' - it is Biscuits!

Thanks, Jesse! Yes, I had thought about trying something similar. I will give it a try.

I'm only 64! That's not to old to learn to be a permie, right?

Josh Hoffman

pollinator

Posts: 459

Location: Louisville, MS. Flirting with 8B

I like...

posted 5 months ago

6
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

Jane Mulberry wrote:

Tereza Okava wrote:
Jane, I have a 25L one, it's several years old and out of production (and filthy as all heck) but I love it. It fits a boule (on a pan with a stainless steel bowl over it), or a bundt pan, a large round cake pan, or a rectangular baking pan for a smallish cake (I bought a baking pan that was just the right size to fit on the tracks that hold the racks up).

Ah, that's great, thank you so much, Tereza! There are very similar ones being made still, and selling for a price that's in our budget. Knowing the size is helpful. I also want to find one with the ferment and dehydrate settings, that will allow a temp of 30C, which I don't think these ones do. But knowing the size and wattage that work for you is very useful!

Josh, Thanks for your suggestion. The Ninja Foodie looks a wonderful device! It is probably bigger than we can accommodate. Also I wanted one with a ferment setting for proofing bread and yoghurt making, and I don't think that does.

You are welcome. I am not sure about those features. We do not have an oven/stove so we use the air fryer oven and a hotplate or wood stove top. That size allows us to roast a whole chicken or rabbit in it which we do several times a week.

I know it ends up being half or more off at least once a year. I bet it is the same for the other recommendation, if it comes available again, if you just keep an eye on them.

"The genius of American farm experts is very well demonstrated here: they can take a solution and divide it neatly into two problems." -Wendell Berry

Darci Larsen

Posts: 2

posted 5 months ago

11
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

I had sourdough paralysis for so long. I'd try to figure out recipes and ratios and times, and my breads would never turn out, and I'd break up with sourdough for months or years before getting the itch to try again. This most recent time, back in October I started a starter in our new house bc I didn't have one left from the last time I quit sourdough. It took MONTHS to wake up, I shit you not. I've never had it go that long, I was convinced I was doing something wrong or there was a black magic dough curse on me or something. (Maybe it was from a lack of yeasts in the air of our new house where nobody until me had done much fermenting. ) But finally, FINALLY, she woke up. And this time I didn't bother measuring or using recipes or anything. I just go by feel and eye. "It's good enough." And it's so easy now!! I just dump some starter in a bowl, add 4 (for one loaf) or 8 (for two loaves) cups of flour, a spoonful of salt, and enough water until I like the consistency. Stretch and fold 4 or so times, then leave it on the counter until bedtime, throw them into a banneton and put in the fridge. The next morning, bake. Just stopping weighing and measuring exactly and referring to recipes and ratios has been transformative. Now I can fit it into my day between things. Now sourdough is a forever part of my life. I named her Olive (Olive Loaf).

Catherine Guzovich

Posts: 51

posted 5 months ago

3
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

I wonder, is there anyone besides me who does not like sourdough bread?

Kevin Olson

gardener

Posts: 395

Location: The Old Northwest, South of Superior

217

I like...

posted 5 months ago

8
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

Darci Larsen wrote:It took MONTHS to wake up, I shit you not. I've never had it go that long, I was convinced I was doing something wrong or there was a black magic dough curse on me or something. (Maybe it was from a lack of yeasts in the air of our new house where nobody until me had done much fermenting. ) But finally, FINALLY, she woke up.

Maybe I just gave up too quickly, then. I had hand ground some rye to make a starter from scratch a couple of years ago, but despite repeated stirrings, feeding, discards, clean jars, etc. never got anything useful. I didn't boil (and cool) the water, but I did let it stand, in case chlorination was interfering (as indeed it might). Nothing. I doubt our house was too sterile - it's an old house (1890s initially, with many subsequent additions, and I've done plenty of baking), so there absolutely HAVE to be some wild yeasts floating around, not to mention almost certainly on the organic rye itself. If I had been trying to prevent it fermenting, it probably would have been off to the races! We do have radiant heat (low pressure steam radiators) rather than forced air, so less "stuff" gets stirred around, though it's pretty unlikely that there really was nothing in the air to inoculate the starter.

I finally threw in the towel on the homemade starter, and my wife just ordered me a starter from King Arthur (which I used for a while, until I swore off bread). Also, the "Artisan Bread in 5 Minutes A Day" method starts with commercial yeast, but if you just keep scraping down, rather than washing scrupulously clean, the mixing bowl when you stir up a new batch of dough, after three or four cycles it does begin to exhibit much more of a sourdough character.

Maybe I'll try again. My sister brought me some fresh rye (for the aforementioned vollkorn bread) after Christmas (among other items) from her local health food store, so perhaps I'll try once again to bootstrap a sourdough starter.

It's nice to know that persistence may eventually pay off, even after it seems all hope is lost.

"Ah, but a man's reach should exceed his grasp,
Or what's a heaven for?"
Andrea del Sarto by Robert Browning

Christoph Henning

Posts: 2

posted 5 months ago

5
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

I would love to bake less often but there is a limit on freezer space in our house. I am considering some traditional baking method from Austria were you bake bread twice a year and then stack it in the attic to dry. I am afraid the summers are to humid here in New England.

Christoph Henning

Posts: 2

posted 5 months ago

4
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

Catherine Guzovich wrote:I wonder, is there anyone besides me who does not like sourdough bread?

Yes, there is. My wife hates the stench of it, the aroma of vomit.

Duncan Shannon

Posts: 6

posted 5 months ago

6
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

Sounds like it might be helpful to have a "how to sourdough" book for different profiles of people/families. like how much time and attention do you have to offer and how much/which kinds of product/output does one want. Then people can identify with one of the profiles and focus on the content there.

1) busy family - how to get started with minimal effort
2) busy family - how to make a lot while already busy
3) total novice - basics
4) total novice - want to have sourdough everything and have lots of time and attention to spare
4) master baker
5) ... Who knows.

Tereza Okava

steward & manure connoisseur

Posts: 4360

Location: South of Capricorn

2368

I like...

posted 5 months ago

5
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

Christoph Henning wrote:

Catherine Guzovich wrote:I wonder, is there anyone besides me who does not like sourdough bread?

Yes, there is. My wife hates the stench of it, the aroma of vomit.

My husband is also not a fan, it took a few special meals where I made a loaf to eat with some nice cheese and fruit and wine before he would accept it at all. But I still don't think he would eat a slice of sourdough toast for breakfast, for example.

Traditional Chinese sourdough (used for steamed as well as baked and fried breads) was widespread but the sour taste not accepted, almost all recipes using "old dough" involve rolling the buns or loaves out on a board sprinkled with flour and baking soda (to neutralize the acidity). It works if you're doing buns, but not for loaves.

Deedee Dezso

pioneer

Posts: 426

Location: WV- up in the hills

102

I like...

posted 5 months ago

12
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

Nina Surya wrote:I occasionally bake bread, but would love to get to the rhythm of baking sourdough bread. The trouble there is that I don't have a starter.
I've tried to start a starter a couple of times, but failed.
I also got a starter once from someone, but it didn't do anything - at all, ever. So I'm assuming the starter was dead. I did feed it, but nothing happened.

Can you get your hands on a bunch of organic, unwashed grapes? The white film on the skins is a wild yeast you can capture by mixing distilled water and flour to a thin slurry, and drop the grapes in for a few days. As with an older starter, when it bubbles and smells yeasty, remove the grapes and continue feeding as normal.

Juniper berries also carry this wild yeast. I've used the grapes I grew, but never tried the juniper.

“Peace is not absence of conflict, it is the ability to handle conflict by peaceful means.” —Ronald Reagan

Food Prep and Preservation - air badge (verified skill)
Skill verified by Mike Haasl

natural medicine - air badge (verified skill)
Skill verified by Mike Haasl

If you live in a cold climate and on the grid, incandescent light can use less energy than LED. Tiny ad:

Learn Permaculture through a little hard work

https://wheaton-labs.com/bootcamp