Breadmaking machines loaves hard crust and do not rise all the way

My machine is a KBS.  Old machine was a Cuisinart.  No matter-- the dough never rises as far as in pictures I see and the crust is always hard, despite choosing light crust.   Seems a loaf this heavy should be bigger and fluffier.  Using a whole wheat recipe...  

Bread -- the staff of life! Good bread is one of the pillars of happiness (IMHO)! Lead bread is edible but unhappy.

My Dear Wife has taken breadmaker recipes and fixed them. (Like every other recipe in every book, which now has annotations. I'm a lucky fellow. ) You could sell a subscription to her breadmaker bread -- it's wonderful.

Post your recipe. I'll convince her to have a look and maybe she can suggest how to fix it.

Douglas Alpenstock wrote:Bread -- the staff of life! Good bread is one of the pillars of happiness (IMHO)! Lead bread is edible but unhappy.

My Dear Wife has taken breadmaker recipes and fixed them. (Like every other recipe in every book, which now has annotations. I'm a lucky fellow. ) You could sell a subscription to her breadmaker bread -- it's wonderful.

Post your recipe. I'll convince her to have a look and maybe she can suggest how to fix it.

Thank you for your assistance.  I live far out and bread making will help us out a lot... The only question in my mind about the ingredients is the flour -- "All-Purpose Unbleached Flour".  Is there anything better I can get ?  The whole wheat flour is, "King Arthur Whole Wheat Flour".  


1 1/4 cup warm spring water (bottled)
1 1/4 Tsp salt
2 1/2 Tbsp unsalted butter
2 Tbsp honey
1 1/4 cups bread flour
2 /1/2 cups whole wheat flour
2 1/4 Tsp active dry yeast

Breadmaker setting: wholewheat
Timer: 3:18

Chris, welcome to the forum.

I find using a bread machine is a convenience.

Different recipes receive different results.

Try making a recipe that uses egg as an ingredient that might help.

The Complete Bread Machine Bakery Book by Langer might help with understanding how different recipes work in the bread machine and selecting breads you might want to try.

Anne Miller wrote:Chris, welcome to the forum.

I find using a bread machine is a convenience.

Different recipes receive different results.

Try making a recipe that uses egg as an ingredient that might help.

The Complete Bread Machine Bakery Book by Langer might help with understanding how different recipes work in the bread machine and selecting breads you might want to try.

My immediate problem is the dough doesn't seem to rise enough and the entire exterior of the
bread is a hard crust.  I have no interest in using eggs for bread.  I don't believe I need a cookbook
to research and solve this.  For their weight -- the loaves should be bigger.  They look too small and
dense to me...

Our present bread machine is a cuisinart and it is the best we've had yet but even with it, I don't love the crust hardness and general loaf shape.

It's a bit more work, but now I just use the machine for mixing and first rise and then divide the dough and throw it 2 loaf pans. Then cover them until risen "enough" for the texture we like and then bake them in the oven.

For me, the work and mess of mixing and kneading are the worst parts of bread making so having the machine do that is well worth it and we still get bread we like on the cheap.

Chris Longski wrote:My immediate problem is the dough doesn't seem to rise enough and the entire exterior of the
bread is a hard crust.  I have no interest in using eggs for bread.  I don't believe I need a cookbook
to research and solve this.  For their weight -- the loaves should be bigger.  They look too small and
dense to me...

Have you tried to proof your yeast?

If the dough is not rising enough the yeast could be the problem.

To proof yeast, place yeast in a warm liquid (100 to 110 degrees F – it should be warm but not hot) with a little sugar and let it sit for a few minutes. Once it's foamy and creamy looking, you know the yeast is active and viable for baking

https://www.foodnetwork.com/how-to/packages/food-network-essentials/how-to-proof-yeast

Whole wheat makes a denser loaf, could it be just that? Could you try changing up the ratio of bread flour and whole wheat flour and see if that makes a difference?

Dian Green wrote:Our present bread machine is a cuisinart and it is the best we've had yet but even with it, I don't love the crust hardness and general loaf shape.

It's a bit more work, but now I just use the machine for mixing and first rise and then divide the dough and throw it 2 loaf pans. Then cover them until risen "enough" for the texture we like and then bake them in the oven.

For me, the work and mess of mixing and kneading are the worst parts of bread making so having the machine do that is well worth it and we still get bread we like on the cheap.

I don't have the option of making dough in the machine and popping a few loaves in the oven.  I am in a forest homestead way, way up in the hills and the LP gas oven doesn't work.  I wouldn't use it anyway because it uses too much gas.  Electric-wise I have 800 watts available out of 3600 in this RV.  From that 3600 I run three electric heaters @ 2250 watts and separate freezer and fridge @ 500 watts and a laptop workstation at about 35 watts.  Do the math.   That leaves 800 watts I have to play around with, so to speak. An automatic breadmaker at < 800 watts  is the perfect solution.  Energy resources are precious in a homestead like this and I have to squeeze every last BTU and watt...  Winter can be nasty.  The upside: eagles over the lake this morning.  Thank you for your response.  

Saana Jalimauchi wrote:Whole wheat makes a denser loaf, could it be just that? Could you try changing up the ratio of bread flour and whole wheat flour and see if that makes a difference?

Perhaps so -- adjusting the recipes.  But that doesn't get me past the hard crust and exterior problem.  That problem is worse than the loaf being dense.  I saw one poster somewhere railing against dense and hard loaves and purported to have the answers.  If I could only find that link again...

Saana Jalimauchi wrote:Whole wheat makes a denser loaf, could it be just that? Could you try changing up the ratio of bread flour and whole wheat flour and see if that makes a difference?

I did have a thought of proofing the yeast to get it going but the recipe didn't call for it so I didn't do it.  For the next loaf I'll proof the yeast.  What I have is, "Fleischman's Active Dry Yeast".  

Anne Miller wrote:

Chris Longski wrote:My immediate problem is the dough doesn't seem to rise enough and the entire exterior of the
bread is a hard crust.  I have no interest in using eggs for bread.  I don't believe I need a cookbook
to research and solve this.  For their weight -- the loaves should be bigger.  They look too small and
dense to me...

Have you tried to proof your yeast?

If the dough is not rising enough the yeast could be the problem.

To proof yeast, place yeast in a warm liquid (100 to 110 degrees F – it should be warm but not hot) with a little sugar and let it sit for a few minutes. Once it's foamy and creamy looking, you know the yeast is active and viable for baking

https://www.foodnetwork.com/how-to/packages/food-network-essentials/how-to-proof-yeast

I did have a thought of proofing the yeast to get it going but the recipe didn't call for it so I didn't do it.  For the next loaf I'll proof the yeast.  What I have is, "Fleischman's Active Dry Yeast".  

Chris Longski wrote:

Saana Jalimauchi wrote:Whole wheat makes a denser loaf, could it be just that? Could you try changing up the ratio of bread flour and whole wheat flour and see if that makes a difference?

Perhaps so -- adjusting the recipes.  But that doesn't get me past the hard crust and exterior problem.  That problem is worse than the loaf being dense.  I saw one poster somewhere railing against dense and hard loaves and purported to have the answers.  If I could only find that link again...

I'm just planning to bake a sandwich loaf and the recipe I'm going to use says to let the bread cool down on the loaf pan and brush butter on top of the bread when it comes out from the oven, that it will keep the crust soft.

Saana Jalimauchi wrote:

Chris Longski wrote:

Saana Jalimauchi wrote:Whole wheat makes a denser loaf, could it be just that? Could you try changing up the ratio of bread flour and whole wheat flour and see if that makes a difference?

Perhaps so -- adjusting the recipes.  But that doesn't get me past the hard crust and exterior problem.  That problem is worse than the loaf being dense.  I saw one poster somewhere railing against dense and hard loaves and purported to have the answers.  If I could only find that link again...

I'm just planning to bake a sandwich loaf and the recipe I'm going to use says to let the bread cool down on the loaf pan and brush butter on top of the bread when it comes out from the oven, that it will keep the crust soft.

The crust problem I have is beyond what brushing butter on top can help.  The loaf is more hard than it should be top, bottom and sides.  I know there is a fix to this -- just gotta keep looking.  

I bake bread at least weekly, often more. Whether it comes out of my bread maker or my oven it is hard. For me, the secret is placing the cooled loaf in a ziplock or rigid plastic container.  The exterior stays softer that way. An old trick you’ll find in vintage cookbooks is to put a slice of apple in with bread or rolls to keep them softer.

Okay, Chris, I consulted the Master Baker regarding your recipe and method.

To help with the rising, she would add vital wheat gluten, about 1 to 1-1/2 tsp for every cup of flour. She buys a bag off Amazon and it lasts us 6 months (and we make a lot of bread).

(Side note: She says it's widely known that Canadian wheat typically has more gluten than American wheat. And we still add more for breadmaking.)

She also suggests it's overbaking, which makes a much harder and thicker crust. She would  pull it out of the breadmaker 10-15 minutes before the "official" bake cycle is complete.

I'll post her recipe when I get a chance.

How is the interior? Is it fully cooked or a bit underdone?
So long as it is fully cooked, you might be able to just end the cycle bit earlier and see if that gives you a softer crust since it looks fairly dark to me.

As already mentioned, your yeast may be a bit old and so is slow to get to work raising the bread. ( being whole wheat slows it down too) It seems like you might be able to get a better outcome if you could stop or pause the machine during its second rise and let it get a bit higher before the baking. It would mean more work on your end and I'm not sure how easy it is to do that kind of change but you might be able to do it in the settings. I know we've used a few different programs with various recipes to get what we want.

I have experimented with many different bread machine recipes because dear hubby wants bread like you buy at the grocery store.

I have made great-tasting bread though none have that soft crust like the store-bought bread so I gave up.

I has been a while since I used the bread machine especially since it was too hot this summer to even want to use the bread machine.

Everything I have read says to use powdered milk or milk instead of the water in the recipe.

Here is a recipe from King Arthur Flower that uses milk and butter.  I can't remember if it is one I have used:

https://www.kingarthurbaking.com/recipes/bread-machine-bread-easy-as-can-be-recipe

Even the author of that Bread Machine Book that I recommended earlier says bread making is an experiment.

Douglas Alpenstock wrote:Okay, Chris, I consulted the Master Baker regarding your recipe and method.

To help with the rising, she would add vital wheat gluten, about 1 to 1-1/2 tsp for every cup of flour. She buys a bag off Amazon and it lasts us 6 months (and we make a lot of bread).

(Side note: She says it's widely known that Canadian wheat typically has more gluten than American wheat. And we still add more for breadmaking.)

She also suggests it's overbaking, which makes a much harder and thicker crust. She would  pull it out of the breadmaker 10-15 minutes before the "official" bake cycle is complete.

I'll post her recipe when I get a chance.

I will have to buy some wheat gluten.  The several Cuisinart recipes I like make no reference to what gluten.  But the KBS recipe book shows gluten in every recipe !  I reckon I'll order some wheat gluten and proof the yeast.  

Dian Green wrote:How is the interior? Is it fully cooked or a bit underdone?
So long as it is fully cooked, you might be able to just end the cycle bit earlier and see if that gives you a softer crust since it looks fairly dark to me.

As already mentioned, your yeast may be a bit old and so is slow to get to work raising the bread. ( being whole wheat slows it down too) It seems like you might be able to get a better outcome if you could stop or pause the machine during its second rise and let it get a bit higher before the baking. It would mean more work on your end and I'm not sure how easy it is to do that kind of change but you might be able to do it in the settings. I know we've used a few different programs with various recipes to get what we want.

The interior is a little dense, but that's probably me not being used to this type of bread.  It bothers me the dough never rises as far as I see in pictures of bread machine usage.  These are HEAVY loaves.  I'll try the plain white bread recipe with increased rise time and proofed yeast.  I don't have any wheat gluten yet...  Suggestions I am trying:  Add wheat gluten, proof the yeast and your suggestion -- increase the rise time.   Thank you for your response.  

One option is to take the dough out at some point after it is mixed, put it in a bread pan, and bake it in an oven. I agree, there is probably an issue with the recipe if it isn't rising well. But this could help with the crust.

How old is your yeast? It can become less effective with time.

Jeremy VanGelder wrote:One option is to take the dough out at some point after it is mixed, put it in a bread pan, and bake it in an oven. I agree, there is probably an issue with the recipe if it isn't rising well. But this could help with the crust.

How old is your yeast? It can become less effective with time.

I don't have the option of making dough in the machine and popping a few loaves in the oven.  I am in a forest homestead way, way up in the hills and the LP gas oven doesn't work.  I wouldn't use it anyway because it uses too much gas.  Energy resources are precious in a homestead like this and I have to squeeze every last BTU and watt...  Winter can be nasty.  The upside: eagles over the lake this morning.  Thank you for your response.  

It takes a lot of fiddling and experiments, but when you nail down a recipe that works in a breadmaker it's very efficient -- of time, labour, and energy. And quality! It is totally worth spending time to find the sweet and repeatable mix that you will use for years.

Chris Longski wrote:

Saana Jalimauchi wrote:

Chris Longski wrote:

Saana Jalimauchi wrote:Whole wheat makes a denser loaf, could it be just that? Could you try changing up the ratio of bread flour and whole wheat flour and see if that makes a difference?

Perhaps so -- adjusting the recipes.  But that doesn't get me past the hard crust and exterior problem.  That problem is worse than the loaf being dense.  I saw one poster somewhere railing against dense and hard loaves and purported to have the answers.  If I could only find that link again...

I'm just planning to bake a sandwich loaf and the recipe I'm going to use says to let the bread cool down on the loaf pan and brush butter on top of the bread when it comes out from the oven, that it will keep the crust soft.

The crust problem I have is beyond what brushing butter on top can help.  The loaf is more hard than it should be top, bottom and sides.  I know there is a fix to this -- just gotta keep looking.  

The sandwich loaf I made.. When it came out of the oven the crust was HARD. Brushed the top with butter and left it in to the loaf pan to cool down for about an hour - ended up with a wonderful soft crust on all sides.

The loaf pan kept the moisture in while the bread cools down and softens the bottom and sides, the butter took care of the top.

Douglas Alpenstock wrote:Okay, Chris, I consulted the Master Baker regarding your recipe and method.

To help with the rising, she would add vital wheat gluten, about 1 to 1-1/2 tsp for every cup of flour. She buys a bag off Amazon and it lasts us 6 months (and we make a lot of bread).

(Side note: She says it's widely known that Canadian wheat typically has more gluten than American wheat. And we still add more for breadmaking.)

She also suggests it's overbaking, which makes a much harder and thicker crust. She would  pull it out of the breadmaker 10-15 minutes before the "official" bake cycle is complete.

I'll post her recipe when I get a chance.

Baking a loaf now with the only change being the addition of the vital wheat gluten @ the proportion of one tbsp for every cup of flour.  The only change I made was olive oil because I have no canola oil.  If the rising looks a little slack I'll pause the machine and allow for more rise.  It's baking now.  Update:  Oh, it's rising about two inches above the pan !  But that's cool because it's rising well.  A little less vital what gluten next time, methinks...  Will have to try another honey whole wheat loaf to see what happens.  The crust on this cycle is set to light.  As long as the exterior is not as thick and tough as the first time !  

I am guilty of pushing the envelope with heavy flour and grains and of course get the lead bread and uncooked middle lots -- in fact I also get broken machine belt and dead machine syndrome then its back to buns...

So for the bread you ruined break it into pieces and make bread pudding or even better get your children making it, adding in dried fruit and fresh spoiled fruit and lots more eggs. I have learned to cheat and use a springform pan for these accidental puddings

How did the loaf come out with the gluten? And what temp water are you using? Is this a recipe that came with the machine?

Sandy

Hi, Chris! I have a 25-year-old Breadman and it worked perfectly when I lived on the front range in Colorado. Like you, since I moved up to the mountains, it's been doing weird things. I found explanations of the process and I'd like to share.  I'm no expert. I've made mistakes and learned. Sorry if these are really basic instructions to experienced breadmakers. please bear with me. Or, if you have time, jump in and critique my process.  I'd love it. That said, away we go!

Use fresh ingredients. Flour and fresh yeast are the most important. Make sure your yeast is active. Anne's suggestion to proof your yeast is right.  If you are okay with buying a new jar of yeast, you will be certain. I keep mine in the refrigerator once it has been opened. I don't know if you have that option, any place cool and dry  would do. Most bread machine recipes call for breadmachine yeast.  Also, I didn't know this, but flour can dry out quicker at high altitudes and won't make good bread. It's drier up here.

Exact measurements. Use a spoon to put dry ingredients in measuring cups and level off with a knife. I didn't at first and wondered why my loaves had huge holes - too much yeast. Use a clear measuring cup with markings on the side for liquids and view at eye-level. .  

Almost all recipes include some kind of oil or butter so the dough doesn't stick to the pan. I also coat my pan and kneading paddle with oil or vegetable shortening  because it's scratched.

One of the things I learned was to make sure my water was the right temperature. I heat it in my coffee maker, pour it in the measuring cup, add the salt, sugar, and oil or butter. Stir. I stick a candy thermometer in there and watch until it goes below 100 degrees F. I wish I had something more precise, but hey inexpensive candy thermometer. By then I have my dry ingredients measured and ready.

Add the ingredients in this order: Liquid, Dry and Yeast. Make an indentation (poke a shallow little hole) in the flour to the side of the kneading paddle. Not the middle and not as deep as the liquid.

Okay. Here's the Key.

The bread machine has 3 functions: mix (knead), rise, and bake, just like making bread the old fashioned way without a machine.  I'm going to put the times in. They're necessarily approximate. If you're nearby your machine, you can hear the changes from mixing to rising, then mixing to rising, then baking. Also, each recipe is a little different as far as timing is concerned.

It goes like this:
1st mixing-10 minutes
1st rise (short rise)- 20 minutes

Here it is! The Most Important Thing, the key, the answer to Life, the Universe and Everything
2nd mixing- 15 minutes
This is where we make adjustments to the dough ball.
If the machine is knocking, the dough is too dry, so I sprinkle in water, a teaspoon at time. Also, if the dough is flaky (it's not coming together in a ball), it needs water. Because who needs flaky dough?
If the dough is sticky or wet like pancake batter, sprinkle in flour, a tablespoon at a time. Now I'm thinking about pancakes.
We want a nice round, dry and smooth doughball that circles nicely in the pan!

Then let the machine carry on and make you delicious bread.

Oh my gosh this is long. Sorry

Adjust the doughball during the 2nd kneading with water or flour
Sue

Hi Sue,

Welcome to Permies.

Sue McKenna wrote:Here it is! The Most Important Thing, the key, the answer to Life, the Universe and Everything
2nd mixing- 15 minutes
This is where we make adjustments to the dough ball.
If the machine is knocking, the dough is too dry, so I sprinkle in water, a teaspoon at time. Also, if the dough is flaky (it's not coming together in a ball), it needs water. Because who needs flaky dough?
If the dough is sticky or wet like pancake batter, sprinkle in flour, a tablespoon at a time. Now I'm thinking about pancakes.
We want a nice round, dry and smooth doughball that circles nicely in the pan!

Excellent advice! My Master Baker also hovers over the doughball to make sure it's just right.

And welcome to Permies Sue!

John F Dean wrote:Hi Sue,

Welcome to Permies.

Thanks, John. This is my first post, but I'm a long-time lurker and learner here.

Hi Douglas, Thanks!

Anne Miller wrote:I have experimented with many different bread machine recipes because dear hubby wants bread like you buy at the grocery store.

I have made great-tasting bread though none have that soft crust like the store-bought bread so I gave up.

I has been a while since I used the bread machine especially since it was too hot this summer to even want to use the bread machine.

Everything I have read says to use powdered milk or milk instead of the water in the recipe.

Here is a recipe from King Arthur Flower that uses milk and butter.  I can't remember if it is one I have used:

https://www.kingarthurbaking.com/recipes/bread-machine-bread-easy-as-can-be-recipe

Even the author of that Bread Machine Book that I recommended earlier says bread making is an experiment.

Thanks, Anne!  I really like the link. All cooking is experimental!  My friends know this.

Chris, we're all waiting for an update. What happened?

To help troubleshoot your baking problems, try making plain white bread. Wholemeal flour adds a number of variables to the equation, potentially making it hard to figure out what's going on. Plain white bread should "just work", giving you a baseline against which to compare your wholemeal outcomes.
For clarity, with plain white, your ratio should be 5:3 flour:water. That's 500 g of flour to 300 g of water. That should literally work every time, giving a nice supple dough.

Thank you, very much, Sue, for your post. It really helps to know what to add if the dough needs help along the way.

My guess is that it really depends on the humidity of that day - and how long it needs to cook without over baking. Anything over cooked gets dry.

Thank you all for the input and this post.

Chris - how has your bread been cooking lately?

Hoping that you have delicious bread!

Chris Longski wrote:My machine is a KBS.  Old machine was a Cuisinart.  No matter-- the dough never rises as far as in pictures I see and the crust is always hard, despite choosing light crust.   Seems a loaf this heavy should be bigger and fluffier.  Using a whole wheat recipe...  

I don't use a bread machine, so you
Might try adding a little sugar with your warm liquid.
I spray a little water over the top of the loaf pans when I put them in the oven to keep the crust soft.

Douglas Alpenstock wrote:Chris, we're all waiting for an update. What happened?

I did a basic white loaf to establish a baseline, so to speak -- the easiest, most basic loaf.  It was not a recipe from the manufacturer but worked out just fine.  I used too much vital wheat gluten (tbsp instead of tsp) and the rising started to scare me !  It rose far more than the first loaf.  But after the first rise it looked better after the second -- not as big.  The crust top fell a bit on me -- but that was likely because I kept opening the damn top to see the rise. The loaf is hearty and has a great taste.  You would pay 7 - 8 bucks at a Publix bakery for a loaf like this !  I am of German heritage and lived in Germany.  What I really want is a hearty loaf of 'black' bread like in Germany.  Pumperninckel too for Reuben sandwiches.  I don't know where to get sure-fire recipes for those breads..  But I have the ingredients on hand.  

Jon R Anderson wrote:

Chris Longski wrote:My machine is a KBS.  Old machine was a Cuisinart.  No matter-- the dough never rises as far as in pictures I see and the crust is always hard, despite choosing light crust.   Seems a loaf this heavy should be bigger and fluffier.  Using a whole wheat recipe...  

I don't use a bread machine, so you
Might try adding a little sugar with your warm liquid.
I spray a little water over the top of the loaf pans when I put them in the oven to keep the crust soft.

A bread machine is the only option for this single guy.  I was snowed in last year and making bread here at the homestead is an issue.  Plus I want healthier loaves than available in grocery stores.