Artisanal bread in 5 minutes a day - not so good?

Hi everyone, I'm new here and hope this community might be a good fit for me. I didn't come here specifically to post this question but I thought I'd just start posting and get a feel for the place.

A couple of years ago I read about the Artisanal Bread in 5 Minutes a Day method in Mother Earth News. I'd never baked yeast bread of any sort before, just quick bread. I gave it a try a few times. The results were not what I would call UTTER failures, but I wasn't exactly proud of them either. I tried a few times but now I just use the recipe/method for pizza crust, which I like.

I've been thinking of taking a crack at yeast bread again, and trying to see where I should make adjustments. My thoughts:

1) Maybe it's the 5 Minutes method that just isn't as good as the traditional way. What do you think?

2) I use steel milled whole wheat flour right now. It's lighter than stone ground (I know it's not as nutritious but that's my compromise). I haven't tried to use bread flour - isn't it white though? I prefer the taste and nutrition of whole wheat.

3) I've never had a bread machine. Worth it to try to find one and get the feel for it before "graduating" to hand made bread?

Any words of encouragement would be nice. Thanks!

I read somewhere that no-knead bread really only works with white flour. The more whole grain you have in the mix, the more it will benefit from kneading. I make lots of sourdough bread, and I compromise and use 1/4 to 1/3 white flour. It makes kneading much easier and improves the texture of the bread. I just take some bubbly sourdough, mix in some more flour and water (plus salt), knead it while adding flour until it cleans my hands, knead it a couple more minutes until it feels silky, put it in a pan to rise, and later stick that pan in the oven. It's not "artisan" but it's good bread and still takes less than 15 minutes a day.

Eyes Wide Open wrote:
A couple of years ago I read about the Artisanal Bread in 5 Minutes a Day method in Mother Earth News. I'd never baked yeast bread of any sort before, just quick bread. I gave it a try a few times. The results were not what I would call UTTER failures, but I wasn't exactly proud of them either. I tried a few times but now I just use the recipe/method for pizza crust, which I like.

I've been thinking of taking a crack at yeast bread again, and trying to see where I should make adjustments. My thoughts:

1) Maybe it's the 5 Minutes method that just isn't as good as the traditional way. What do you think?

I am not sure what the 5 min method is..... I do make no knead bread... but honestly I don't think there is any one part if it that only takes 5 minutes. I make it with wild yeast (flour/water starter or Kieffer) and whole grain flours (wheat or rye  or mixed). Feeding the starter might get finished in 5 min, but I have to do two, one to use and one to store. By the time everything is measured and mixed and cleaned up the next day or later the same day it is closer to 15 min. I don't knead it, but I do make sure the whole thing is "incorporated" (part of my extra time may be making a bigger batch... 4 loaves). Then baking day it is dumped on the table and a ball made.... divided and benched for 15... this 15 min is not free though, I have pans to get ready and greased or something else for it to rise in, then pan it and let it rise a few hours before baking. But somewhere within that two hours I do have to check the oven is clear and heat it up. This is quite important as with the high temp required (450F, may as well use a bread machine if you only use 350F) and the heating of a cast iron pot if you are using one, this will take a good hour. Just waiting till the oven light goes off is not good enough... it needs to soak. That is the one part under 5 minutes but you can't go out for two hours either. Baking is about 45min... till the center is 195 to 200F. I figure I need about 3 to 3.5 hours on bake day that I am not going out or doing any long involved projects. My reason for making this bread over kneaded bread is three things.... taste, a long primary ferment brings out taste I have found no other way of doing.... 12 to 18 hours just does something. Keeping, machine bread or store bought only tastes good for about 24 hours, a good hearth loaf will be good 5 days down the road. Scheduling, I have a family and it is hard to set aside a 5 to 7 hour day to make bread by kneading which it takes to get a good tasting bread. The whole day would be gone. Besides, it uses a lot more starter and so the starter has to be doubled a few more times so I would be doing it over two or three days anyway.

I started out making machine bread.... fill it the night before and wake up to better than store bread. But, only makes one at a time, stales fast, and very hard to vary how it tastes and still get good bread.... good bread is full of "until it is ready" kinds of things. I moved on to kneaded bread so I could try wild yeast... I used a mixer so I was limited to two loaves.... ditched the mixer when I went to 4 loaves and about that time started making one offs of no knead to try out.... everyone loved the no knead stuff so I started doing it all that way.....

Problem with making good bread.... it just doesn't stick around, I now make 7 at a time

2) I use steel milled whole wheat flour right now. It's lighter than stone ground (I know it's not as nutritious but that's my compromise). I haven't tried to use bread flour - isn't it white though? I prefer the taste and nutrition of whole wheat.

Taste is everything. better a heavy loaf you like than a fluffy you don't. Still, you can make great bread with all whole wheat and get lots of rise. Stone ground flour is your dentists friend... not sure about it's other benefits. If a grain fed cow is a sick cow... maybe a grain diet isn't so great for humans either (not speaking as an expert or anything... just a thought that has been passing through my head these days).

3) I've never had a bread machine. Worth it to try to find one and get the feel for it before "graduating" to hand made bread?

Get a small one.... because it only tastes great fresh Follow the directions exactly using bread machine yeast only.... at least for the first few. Use the trouble shooting guide to get a nice loaf with your flour. I used a machine for about 1 and a half years when I decided I didn't trust store bread. I haven't used it for a long time now (years) if you live close come and get it I am not sorry I got it though, it was $88 and paid for itself long time ago. It gave me confidence for the rest. There are some great books out there on baking and some nice websites too (my kneaded bread formula came from a website). You only need flour, water and salt to make great bread(if you leave flour and water alone long enough it will have all the yeast you need).

Sorry for the tomb.... I really enjoy my bread and making it. Anyone who has tried it likes it too, even those who "don't like sour dough bread".

BTW, there is a picture of one of my whole wheat no knead hearth loaves in the no knead thread.

The following method takes a little more time, but requires no machines and makes, in my experience, a very good bread:

http://www.farine-mc.com/2010/10/chad-robertsons-basic-country-bread.html

Joel Hollingsworth wrote:
The following method takes a little more time, but requires no machines and makes, in my experience, a very good bread:

http://www.farine-mc.com/2010/10/chad-robertsons-basic-country-bread.html

Looks good, very similar to the no knead bread, but with stretch and fold instead of kneading to speed things up. Uses UB instead of whole wheat, but that is just taste more than anything. I think the mix of flours is what makes each bread unique. I generally make my bread in two batches...
A) because my bowls are not big enough
B) It is nice to make a variety.
I like to make enough bread at once to fill the oven so I don't have to use the dutch ovens. I plug the steam vent too. IMO the one she did with the hot oven looks nicer.

I've had only dismal brick-like failures with these kinds of recipes...and I think it's because I just can't use store bought white flour. 

I recently read in "the Bread Builders" (book) that freshly ground flour (no matter the method of grinding) has weak gluten.  I've also heard that the bran content of whole grain flour is "sharp" and tends to puncture gas bubbles?  That doesn't happen in my sour dough jar....We grind our own flour right before we use it, I have a feeling that's why my sourdough breads have never been that great.  The muffins, waffles and pancakes are awesome though! 

That same book also has a recipe for "desem" bread, a sourdough that is specifically made with fresh ground flour.  It requires a long slow cold ferment and then a quick warm proof.  I need to get my starter super active before trying it...I'm in that process now. 

this is a recipe that i started using a while ago, i use the water, yeast and salt measurements but go by feel on the flour depending on how i want the bread to come out. ive never had any complaints and a few friends from San Fransisco said my bread is better than most in the city.

it comes out REALLY good in a wood fired oven.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/21/dining/211brex.html?_r=1

sometimes i use a homemade sourdough starter as well.

and i use bread flour not all purpose or white.

marina phillips wrote:
I've had only dismal brick-like failures with these kinds of recipes...and I think it's because I just can't use store bought white flour. 

I don't think I have ever used white flour.... but not fresh ground either.

I recently read in "the Bread Builders" (book) that freshly ground flour (no matter the method of grinding) has weak gluten.  I've also heard that the bran content of whole grain flour is "sharp" and tends to puncture gas bubbles?  That doesn't happen in my sour dough jar....We grind our own flour right before we use it, I have a feeling that's why my sourdough breads have never been that great.  The muffins, waffles and pancakes are awesome though! 

whole grain flours don't rise quite so much as white, but they can still perform well. normally whole grain flours are left to age for at least two weeks because the first two weeks the flour performs variably (some say wild). However, fresh ground is always the same and should work ok. (I have read the book too, everyone has a theory as to why whole grain or even whole wheat performs the way it does)

That same book also has a recipe for "desem" bread, a sourdough that is specifically made with fresh ground flour.  It requires a long slow cold ferment and then a quick warm proof.  I need to get my starter super active before trying it...I'm in that process now. 

Actually not that cold or long.... as I would gauge things...The two things I would say is:
1) use warm water. I use about 105 to 110F water even though my first ferment is 12 hours(much longer than his)
2) do not use time to determine when the first ferment is finished, if the dough has not at least doubled... it has not finished fermenting and if it is taking too long, it is too cool, warm it up a bit. The yeast speed doubles for each 17degree temp increase. Cool, in SoCal is 68F, here it is 50F

I've decided to try a standard basic recipe with bread flour. I'm fine doing the kneading, it's just that the no-knead technique was described in a magazine and that piqued my interest in bread baking in the first place. I may prefer whole wheat flour, but I figure I can start with bread flour and get the knack for it, then add increasing amounts of other flours and just play around with it. When I master a basic thing, then it's easier to have success with the next steps.

I did a loaf using just (white) bread flour and the traditional kneading/rising process (with my Carla Emery book open before me). Whoo! That is a whole different experience - much better. I really do prefer the taste of wheat but the difference in the quality of the bread (kneaded vs no-knead) was incredible. I could see what kneading does. I am planning to wait until I have my wood stove installed before making my next loaf (because I spent way too many resources keeping my last batch of dough warm enough to rise) but I plan to add increasing amounts of whole wheat flour to the mixture and see how much I can get away with. I assume people can make 100% whole wheat bread - heck, we have a legacy of thousands of years with nothing else. Maybe not as fluffy as white but GOOD bread, nourishing bread. I have renewed confidence that I can get there.

Eyes Wide Open wrote:
I did a loaf using just (white) bread flour and the traditional kneading/rising process (with my Carla Emery book open before me). Whoo! That is a whole different experience - much better. I really do prefer the taste of wheat but the difference in the quality of the bread (kneaded vs no-knead) was incredible.

Having done both... I have gotten my "no-knead" to a place where it is pretty hard to tell the difference. But, I had done kneaded bread on a weekly basis for about a year before I switched. I found benching the dough the right way makes a very large difference. Also, all of my breads have been wild yeast, so I have been used to 2 and 3 day prep times and learned to tell what "when ready" looks like.

After the first ferment when the dough has risen in a bowl, I dump it out on a floured surface. (no-knead needs a lot more flour because of higher hydration) and stretch it out sort of rectangular or square. Then I fold it from the top to the middle and the bottom to the middle turn the dough 90 deg and repeat. When you flip it over it is like a big bun. I then divide it into loaves (4 in my case) and repeat the stretch and fold with each before setting on a floured surface for about 20 min. (often call benching) While benching I cover with a tea towel or wax paper. Then I form the loaf and pan/mold (depending on if I make a hearth or a sandwich loaf) it and let it proof for a few hours.

The stretch and fold is what makes it work. I actually do it upside down from what I described above, stretching the top of the ball till it looks like it came from kneaded dough. I watched a professional make this bread (no-knead) and he also does it this way, but he does it so quick and easy, that if you haven't made bread before you miss it. It just looks like he is making a quick ball, but he is actually quite careful about stretching the top.

I have made white (ub flour)once or twice and while it was puffy, the taste was bland to me. I do whole wheat (i've started using Durum wheat sometimes) whole grain wheat and whole grain rye. The 100% rye is pretty flat, but it has the best taste. I also do mixes of flours. I normally add a small amount of flax seed or meal and barley grain or meal. if using the whole seed it has to soak for at least 12 hours (which is why it works so well in no-knead) before using it. Only about 1/2 oz per loaf is needed and I soak in about twice the weight of water. I then take out the weight of the seed from the flour and the weight of the water from the recipe too. I use molasses and/or honey for sweetening again removing water weight and adding sweetening weight. So while I start with a very lean bread (flour, 81% water, 2% salt and starter<made from flour and water>) I do fiddle with it a fair amount. Just remove water to add wet stuff and flour to add dry stuff.... if it is in between some of both. It doesn't have to be exact..... bread is actually pretty forgiving, it just changes the "when ready" times.

I've made the Mother Earth artisan bread several times - always with 100% home ground whole wheat.  I really like it.  As soon as I get an oven (hopefully an outside earthen oven) I'll start making it again.

It's worth a try anyway!

Jen

The method I linked to above can do 50% whole wheat without much difficulty, and I've done up to 80%.

Chad Robertson's book, Tartine Bread, mentions "integrale" (100% whole wheat) as working great or being mediocre, depending on what season the wheat was harvested.

Joel Hollingsworth wrote:
The method I linked to above can do 50% whole wheat without much difficulty, and I've done up to 80%.

Chad Robertson's book, Tartine Bread, mentions "integrale" (100% whole wheat) as working great or being mediocre, depending on what season the wheat was harvested.

I have heard the same, that there is a different amount of gluten depending on time of harvest. The mill uses this to their advantage to mix their flours to get a specific protein percentage.

Don't have a recepie to recommend.  When making a whole wheat bread, even with boughten yeast, I have often added just enough flour to get a spongey mass, then let it bubble for an hour or so.  It seems to soften up the whole flour, and soaks the water into the flour better, thereby reducing the amount of flour necessary overall, creating a moister more flexible dough that rises better. 

I splash water into the oven twice of the the first 5 minutes to increase heat and moisture, and slash the top crust to allow that 'pop' prior to crust formation.  This also seems to thicken the crust (if you like that kind of thing).

I think nice warm temperature among all ingredients is important (the dough feels more alive).

I have not gotten that bubbly artisan crusty loaf effect without some white flour and a ~8 hour proof in the fridge... I am starting to suspect that is where the magic happens.

Paul Cereghino wrote:Don't have a recepie to recommend.  When making a whole wheat bread, even with boughten yeast, I have often added just enough flour to get a spongey mass, then let it bubble for an hour or so.  It seems to soften up the whole flour, and soaks the water into the flour better, thereby reducing the amount of flour necessary overall, creating a moister more flexible dough that rises better. 

Yes, the autolyse stage is very important, and should happen prior to kneading (or whatever does the same job).

The recipes which I have seen for the five minute artisan bread call for gluten flour to compensate for the fact that the gluten is not developed by kneading.

Different strokes for different folks, but I favor old-school artisan bread made over a three-day period.

Day one- mix the sponge with sourdough starter in the evening and let sit over night.
Day two- add additional flour, knead, and place in the fridge for delayed fermentation.
Day three - shape, let rise, bake.

Delayed fermentation makes some definite differences in the finished product, as the enzymes produced by the yeast have a much longer time to work their magic in the dough.

What's the hurry?

LasVegasLee wrote:
What's the hurry?

LOL
I've just too many things to do ... I love good bread and have tried many times over the years to make a great everyday loaf, without any joy .... that was until I bought a Panasonic bread machine, now I have great bread all the time, and it just atkes acouple of miniuits to throw the ingred in the machine ... suits my lifestyle, and I get bread that everyone comments on!

Cheers

dolmen wrote:
LOL
I've just too many things to do ... I love good bread and have tried many times over the years to make a great everyday loaf, without any joy .... that was until I bought a Panasonic bread machine, now I have great bread all the time, and it just atkes acouple of miniuits to throw the ingred in the machine ... suits my lifestyle, and I get bread that everyone comments on!

Cheers

The bread I made in the machine was certainly better than anything I could buy in the store. However, it is much harder to make even small changes in the recipe that work and not possible to use wild yeast at all. I used my machine for all my bread for two years and was happy with the bread it made (the shape was not so pleasing). I have been making wild yeast bread over a few days for over two years now. It is  (to me) much better than anything else I have made or tasted. I can make major changes on each and every batch if I like and they still always turn out fine.... I just go to the next step when the dough is "ready", not on a timer as the machine does. It also means I can make bread with no power so long as I have either sunlight (solar ovens are very easy to make) or a wood fired oven (not so easy to make).

Each of us have different reasons for making our own bread. Those reasons dictate how we make that bread. Those who want Artisan breads have to spend the time needed to get that. Those who are looking to make sandwich loaves can make quicker breads that still taste wonderful.

I have started doing this as of 3 weeks ago.

The video that got me to want to try it is here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13Ah9ES2yTU

It's also from the New York Times.

I have a large (7 quart) dutch oven so I found I needed to make a double batch to fill it or the crust did not turn out properly. (not enough steam as far as I can tell)
I have made white, wheat, and last week I made caraway rye using this method and recipe. I just replaced 1/3 of the flour with the new kind and made as per normal.

I've also found that if I turn out the sponge and knead it a little bit before letting it proof I get a tighter structure more suitable for sandwiches.

I intend to get a 4 quart dutch oven shortly so I can start making 2 loaves a week, 1 BIG loaf is enough for the Mrs. and myself per week but it's a little stale by day 5 and having it fresher more often is a good thing.
I generally mix the dough when I get home from work and just let it sit until the next night when it goes in the oven. It's real convenient and is saving us abour $3/week on store bought bread.

Some other thoughts on it....
The recipe works fine with store bought AP flour but I rather like the taste of Wheat Montana flour and it's much more natural.
In the video he mentions making it in any covered container, like a pyrex dish.... if you are leery about shelling out for a dutch oven see what you may have lying around to experiment with before buying one. it's only like $3 for a bag of flour and $2 or less for yeast. Burning through five bucks to possibly save you a hundred or more per year is a good investment if you ask me.

I use wholemeal flour that I get from an animal feed store, sometimes mixing in some white(ish) unbleached flour if ity needs to be lightened. The quality quality varies but is better than anything I've bought in healthfood shops, I think it must be stoneground because it is very fine and the bran doesn't separate when I sieve it. I used to buy flour from a much hyped (supposedly ) organic stoneground wholemeal bakery/restaurant. It was OK the first time, but subsequent sacks were clearly mostly industrial white flour mixed with way too much coarse bran.Caveat emptor!

If I want 5 minute bread I make chappatis, naan, pancakes, fried doughballs, cake or biscuits/cookies.The rest of the time I bake batches of 6-8 loaves about once a  week. I spread the bread making over 1 or 2 days but it is probably only 2 hours work total, and I can do other work while the bread is rising. It's better bread if it gets my full attention though

In my experience sourdough saves a very small amount of money when it works, and when it doesn't (often) you spend a day or two making bread for the animals. I usually buy cubes of live yeast for 0.2 euros each, divide each one into 8 pieces and store it in the freezer. One or two cubes will do 8 loaves, so the cost is barely significant.

Before eating grain, our ancestors gathered wild grass seeds and  ate  other nuts and seeds as well. The main difference between wild seeds and cultivated grain is that cultivated grain has more starch. IMO whole grains are good for most people, but there are genetic differences between races of people in different parts of the world, adaptations to different diets etc. White bread is slow starvation unless supplemented with a lot of meat,eggs or dairy products.

Bread machines make one or two loaves at a time, and are a lot of work to clean.  I used one a few times and it didn't seem worth it. A big basin keeps mess down

Pignut wrote:
In my experience sourdough saves a very small amount of money when it works, and when it doesn't (often) you spend a day or two making bread for the animals. I usually buy cubes of live yeast for 0.2 euros each, divide each one into 8 pieces and store it in the freezer. One or two cubes will do 8 loaves, so the cost is barely significant.

Interesting. I have been doing wild yeast for over two years... 4 loaves /week. Any "failures"  (I can think of two in two years) I have had have been my fault... and would have happened with yeast I am sure. Maybe a difference in water... I do use tap water, but ours is quite soft and there is not much chemical in it. I have heard some people have to use purified water. ( I have had as many failures with the bread machine and I only used it one year)

I don't use wild yeast for money saving, I consider that it makes better bread that is more healthy (just my opinion... your mileage may vary). The big thing with wild yeast, is never use a clock.... everything is done "when it is ready", not on a timed basis... my times change greatly depending on time of year... in the winter my proof is sometimes over two hours but only one when it is 28C or so.

I started with the dutch oven and 9 or 10 inch round roasting pan (often under $10 brand new), but now just put them in the oven. I have used bread pans, direct on fire brick as a ball or the last little while, long and skinny. I use a thin cutting board as a peel and put a pan of water in the oven right from when I turn it on. I think the water/steam soaks into the fire brick. I block the steam vent that comes up under what used to be the rear left burner (the cooktop mods are another story). I use a BBQ burger flipper with a long handle to get the loaves out of the hot oven or gloves (from the welding section...).

We get to eat the first two fresh, but have to freeze the others to make them last the week. The rumour is... 100% rye made right... is not ready to eat for 3 days, but lasts longer than wheat. It will always be more "chewy" though. Rye works best with wild yeast because the low PH keeps the rye flour from deteriorating too fast. Any rye loaves I have made... have not lasted even half a week... they taste too good

I often add other soaked grains as well... barley (pot) and flax are the ones I use these days. I throw the whole kernel (no grinding) in water a day before mixing. They are soft when the loaf is done and add interesting taste and texture. I have also experimented with durum wheat flours (whole grain). It works ok, but the texture doesn't stay nice as long as the regular stuff.... eat it quick

Gluten can develop two ways: by kneading or by time. Artisan bread in five minutes a day is not about making the bread in five minutes, it's about mixing the ingredients in five minutes and letting it sit overnight or longer to get the gluten to form on its own without kneading. In fact the book calls for mixing your batch on the weekend and making several loafs of bread throughout the week from that same batch. http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/whatisglutenandhowisitdeve.html

I've used the 5 minutes a day recipe on several occasions. It's fairly simple and produces a good loaf with white flour. I've never tried it with whole wheat flour, though.

TheLight wrote:
In fact the book calls for mixing your batch on the weekend and making several loafs of bread throughout the week from that same batch.

Yikes! That would be ok in the winter, but I wouldn't want heat the house up any more than I had to in the summer. Once a week is enough. It would be nice to have fresh bread though.

I've used the 5 minutes a day recipe on several occasions. It's fairly simple and produces a good loaf with white flour. I've never tried it with whole wheat flour, though.

Works fine with whole wheat too (I've never used white... UB or AP). Bakers yeast or wild, both work fine... Bakers yeast is just added, with wild yeast water and flour must be subtracted from the recipe to make space for the starter. In both cases the amount is about one fifth the normal amount for that kind of bread.

@Eyes Wide Open:
I use this method and I really like it but I've never made wheat bread (whole or otherwise) because I'm the only person in the house who will eat it.  I've only made a few of the basic french style breads, so far, with the recommend unbleached all-purpose flour and I've never had any problems with it (flour wise, I had to up the cooking time/temp because it wasn't cooking through at first) and I don't even use a baking stone (I don't particularly care for really crisp crusted bread).
Did you use either of the, I believe, two whole wheat bread recipes in the book? If you did and it did not work, perhaps your local library has the sequal type thing to that book which is 'Healthy Bread in Five Minutes a Day'. What on Earth would a book about healthy bread be if it didn't include any whole wheat recipes?
@Len:
You can't leave the dough sitting out! You put it in the refrigerator covered and it can actually still be used for about two weeks. Toward the end of that, though, it starts to get standing liquid around it and smells like beer.  I just drain the water off and use it up really quick when it starts to do that, I haven't noticed any big change in the bread other than it sometimes needing a little longer for it to bake completely when it sits for a while.

AlexS wrote:
@Len:
You can't leave the dough sitting out! You put it in the refrigerator covered and it can actually still be used for about two weeks. Toward the end of that, though, it starts to get standing liquid around it and smells like beer.  I just drain the water off and use it up really quick when it starts to do that, I haven't noticed any big change in the bread other than it sometimes needing a little longer for it to bake completely when it sits for a while.

I do 4 loaves a week... I cook them all at once so I don't have to heat the oven 4 times. 4 loaves of dough is all ready close to my scales limit so making more dough for later doesn't make sense. Also, More loaves in the oven at a time makes more steam and better bread.

The standing liquid is "hooch". pretty common in wild yeast starter.

I leave my dough out for up to 18 hours, the flour starts to degrade much longer than that... though I have seen a rye bread recipe where the dough sits almost a week... needs no starter as it makes its own. Chewy but tastes great.