women peeing outdoors

It is entirely inappropriate for me to bring this up.

And yet .... here I am doing it ....

Many women are less than comfortable peeing outside.  If there is an indoor option and an outdoor option, and a request to pee outside (as many permaculture farms do) they will choose the indoor option.

Other women prefer to pee outside.  Even if there is a preference that folks pee inside, they are passionate that pee is not to be wasted on a septic system. 

I have attempted some gentle queries in this space.  Although any query a man makes in this space is rude and obnoxious however gentle you attempt to make it.  But I'm used to being rude and obnoxious, so I've gained some ground.

Let's say the gals that prefer indoors are group A and the gals that prefer outdoors are group B.

I asked some gals from group A "why?"  The responses were mostly about it being messy and sometimes about the squatting position being tiring.  And then there was something about what do you do with the bit of TP after.

And then I ran into a permaculture instructor from group B.  I knew she would understand my obnoxious questions and roll with it like any other permaculture question.

In respect to messy:  a little practice on aim and a little extra push (read: power pee) is the recipe. 

I didn't think to ask about the other two and I should have. 

I think that the world may be a better place if this .... awkward ... information is exchanged.  Any chance that there are women from group B that are willing to share?  And are there, perhaps, women from group A that might have more questions?


UPDATE! Here at Wheaton Labs we have been through several iterations of all sorts of things. In 2019 (nine years after this thread was started) we bought a collection of contraptions that facilitate women peeing while standing up and remaining fully clothed. In the end, the group of women here unanimously agreed there was a clear winner. Details here.





https://amzn.to/2WTHtMj

I think i prefer to pee inside, peeing outside  makes me feel unladylike but i am willing to suffer from that for permaculture.
        I suppose there is also the question of how willing you are to make others take you outdoor lavatory habits, like would people want to stop walking round your graden if they new what you had been up to.
      I have one friend who revels in outdoor lavotory practices, take her on a country walk and she will find an oportunity and a well broadcasted one to do her bit and it seems to amuse her boyfriend.
      In some counntries its the norm htere are no lavatories.
         There is always using potties and then distributing their contents round the garden.
Of course that was the way things worked, father took out the contents of the privy bucket onto the compost heap at night. I have been to bits of Spain, thirty five years ago where it is the barn and the hens deal with any heavier excretions. This subject make me feel yucky. Rose.

Rose, any advice for those not yet as comfortable as you?

After wrestling with a jam jar with a handle on it for a few years, I had occasion to become familiar with the hospital's urine collection method - the 'hat'   I bought 2 from Amazon for minimal $, and now use them - never 'miss' or hit my hand   It is a bother to take out and empty into into the watering can, but it's natural and free. 

BTW, has it been addressed yet why dog pee yellows lawns ?  does ours?  Is it a matter of them using the same spot repeatedly, if posssible? 

  Is it female dogs who pee on lawns more and males on bushes?
  The thought i have had on ecology and dog pee and other carnivore pee, is that a carnivores often pee on trees or bushes anything salient, when marking their territory, that is fertiliser for the trees a natural advantage for bigger plants, while herbivores are an advantage to pastures.
  The other thing that i have noticed with my dog is that he is specialy eager to mark anything clean, if anyone puts down their plastic shopping bags in his way he will have a try at perfuming them.
  Maybe you need a dog hardy lawn as the english person who found a cow trample, in wet weather, hardy pasture.
    I would say that you needed a steady  low pressure flow to stop splashing. I was once a maid in france for six mounths. The maids room was in the attic with other maids rooms and there were three lavatories, come showers, and they were turkish, which means somthing like a shower dish iwth a hole in it and two raised foot prints either side of the hole. I thought it was a bit tough for me and very tough for the spanish maid a few doors up who was pretty old maybe as old as i am now. With lavotaries of this type you have to just get over having splashed shoes, spotted shoe leather. I took to washing,. there was a basin in my room. I gave up showering. In england france was famouse for having outre, way out  lavatory set ups and visiting france instead of disapointing expectations richly rewarded them, thirty five years ago. agri rose macaskie.

Humus wrote:
... has it been addressed yet why dog pee yellows lawns ?  does ours?  Is it a matter of them using the same spot repeatedly, if posssible? 

Too much of a good thing - in this case nitrogen - is what kills the grass in those spots. Yes, ours will do it, too. If you "spray it around" over a wider area (I know it's easier to say than do!) the grass will green up and grow luxuriously there.

well wide open spaces and house bordereing two busy roads I guess might be a reason that I tend to use the house.

Maybe if i was to finish fencing in my garden areas a bit better or getting my hedgerow up to hide the use of the outdoor world as a toilet..then i would be more comfortable..

Hubby doesn't even like to use the great outdoors, but he'll put it in a jar..for me to use outside..

There is too much LAW I guess that lead to arrests for indecent exposure..we know a person who is now on the sex registry list for going around his co truck to relieve himself and a neighbor spotted and reported him exposing himself to the law..

then there was even the case recently of the man who was arrested for being naked in his own home..yes he won..but he lost his job.

i'm not so concerned when i'm sure there is no way no one will see me..but we nave neighbors with 2 story homes ..or barns..onboth sides of us..that can easily peer over out not fully grown propertylinetrees.

i do believe it is good for the gardens and tokeep critters at bay..but there is always the arrest factor

I think there are many things to love about peeing outside. But privacy is an issue, and so is snow. I don't mind squatting, but then I don't have knee issues.

For me, the biggest problem is lack of washing facilities near my favorite bushes. Unfortunately, for women, drip drying is just not a great option, as you eventually start to smell like a substandard nursing home. I refuse to leave bits of toilet paper lying around, even buried. And I really don't want to carry used toilet paper back to a collecting receptacle, where it can develop a fine, nasty aroma before said receptacle is emptied. I am thinking of carrying a jar of water with me as I depart for the thickets, but haven't actually tried it out yet. Should work...

(We don't have any enclosed facilities right now- compost toilet is on this year's list.)

The thing is midnight peeing if you have neigbors around . From the point of veiw do you want to be weeding were you have watered it thooroughly, though i I have in the past with an angry proteszst or two handled the knowledge of men peeing in the garden, in order to keepthe garden usable for all maybe the, pee into a bale of straw and you will have sweet eatearth in three mounths is the best, that way you can feel that it is matured worked on pee you put onto your garden.
  I was in a smart persons land, open to the permies, the river pool swimming pool was open to the publick, villagelrs and tourists and they had a strange lavatory, the facilities were on the first floor and fell to the ground floor were they wer treated, i don't know how, so use could be made of them later.  I have not been abroad hardlley at all since i married but i did get five days in Jamaica. Five days with jet lag is not enough to enjoy it and my husbands idea of fun is lying on  a lounge chair in the hotel and i was absolutely itching to know Jamaica  and to know Jamaicans. It is the home of Bob Marley after all I wante dto be in a friday night street party. It was agony.agri rose macaskie.

I pee outside when I'm out there, working in the garden, woods, camping, hiking, etc. Just stand with feet apart, squat all the way down, do it, shake a little, let it dry a little, then go. If you shake and let it dry a little you won't be stinky at the end of the day. DO wash up and change your undies(do I have to say that?).

It's no big deal, and the stretch and stuff it does to your muscels to be able to squat like that is good for you anyways. SOmetimes out hiking etc I'm with a group of people and the cover is sparse, I just walk off aways if it's a pit stop and everyone is grown up enough to not be peeping etc.

My hub has his pee spot by the wood pile, ha. And I'd sure rather pee/poop in the woods than use one of those porta potties.

wylde thang is the bravest with her shake a bit thats unisex isn't it? I always thought wylde thang was a man.
  I have a mischeivouse demon, when i tell my father how to read what i  write Paul Wheaton opens this thread.  though my father is not very prim and proper or wasn't,  i  begindn to think he does what his friends do and nowdays his friends are prim and proper. If i dont talk about intimate things i get called arrogant  and if i do I lack solemnity. I suppose if it was not that my father was inclined to look for anything but how well i do at least one or two things it woild not seem to me that my evil genius had struck again in making this thread coincide with my fathers desire to read what i write, maybe he has not started yet. It was the scorn of others  that had me looking so hard for information, I am interested and do look for information with out any pressures I think scorn makes me work harder at things. Scornfull people want to be so much better than you but their scorn  makes you  try harder and so you end up in some cases better than them, serves them right. It will also be the death of me i will always be running to try not be done down too badly. rose

  The trouble is that in permaculture you might want the return among you flowers and veggies.
    Sir Albert Howard, the first organics man, formulated the law of return, that what we took should go back to the earth, leave your colthes and furniture to rot ther instead of throwing it away for example. I had an uncle who believed in him and peeing and pooing in the garden were a done thing for him  according to my father that created a good tomatoe patch.
      Do you want to garden where someon has peed and if you do then as neighbors and such exist it could be easier if you used a recipient and and so could take your return to the part that needed it without attracting undue attention from neighbors. My children will kill me for this thread. Children are maybe almost more represive than parents.

  Poohing in the wild is problematic if there are boar or feral pigs around.  The life cycle of the tape worms indudes pigs eating human poop. You pass tape worm eggs to them if you have a tape worm and they eat your poop which will be full of the eggs the tape worm living in your stomach lay or caste.
      The larvae that develope from the eggs are tiny and get through the intestine of the pig who ate an infected  poop and find a nice place for themselves in a pigs muscles. Then we eat the pig and get tape worm, muscles being meat, which develps in our stomach and looks like onthe monster Will Smith has to dael with inwhen the light is going back to be queen of her planet, i think
      or:- If someone has tape worm and does not wash their hands well after pooping and cooks everyones food,  they they pass the eggs to us whose larvae will escape from our  intestine into our muscles or maybe some other more delicate tissue and live in us. It is better not to start the tape worm pigs cycle off. agri rose macaskie.
   

Yes, let's not forget that there are real reasons why modern sewers and treatment plants were invented. The challenge is to understand what the risks are and figure out how to avoid them without  such an expensive infrastructure.

I keep a pink bucket by my compost heaps for ladies to pee in, which is then tipped straight onto the heap where it can be of maxiumum benefit.  The height of the heaps is always such that an average sized adult man can pee direct onto the heap.  Of courses, we don't have many visitors and no near neighbours, but I did accidentally discover my old neighbour and her mother in law peeing under a fig tree once - it was during the summer and just as the fruit was ripening and I seriosly believe that they had gone out of their way just to make a donation of much needed fluid to the developing fruit.  But then, there are still houses in this village with no indoor sanitation at all.  The hay field we are cutting at the moment to keep it clear for the fire season is only 'clean' because the old lady that usually lives there has been off living with her family in Lisbon for several months.

Incidentally, I have seen gypsy women peeing, standing up, on the wheels of their caravans.  It's a skill I've never bothered trying to master, but it was certainly fascinating.

my mother in law talks of women peeing standing up in the old days in villages here in Spain. She rather did for me behind my back and had intimate conversation to my face which i found hard to take. I did not know that in such situation i had a right to say look enough is enough, i thought i had to be super nice to my husbands mother whatever she did to me. In  the book Wuthering heights the second Cathy agrees not to talk badly of Heathcliff to her husband who was bought up by him and loves him and Heathcliff was incredibly evil to her. However heath cliff was dead when she agreed not to talk badly of him. rose macaskie.

love this thread

Hi Rose, fun to see where you are from--SPain. I could tell you were from Europe, but was wondering where.

My husband's family(All his grandparents) are from the Azores, we hope to visit there(and mainland Portugal) someday, the dream is to rent motorcycles and explore

good to know my squating and shaking on the side of the road will not faze anyone

Experimenting is great, just always, always  remember where the electric fence lines run.

Let me know when you're coming over wyldthang - you can pop in for a visit and borrow the caravan for a few nights if you like.  Use of pink bucket is optional...

well that would be fun!

I agree with wyldthang -- it depends entirely where you're at.  If you are working outside -- then outside it will be.

For ladies though there never will be a contest as I have seen all the men in field camp practicing from the front porch to see who can pee the furthest.  I think that's entirely a male thing.

And what do you expect to learn from bringing up this topic anyway?

Very interesting. My husband and I were discussing this topic a few days ago when discussing the use of compost toilets. I have never once peed outside, I have always been too shy to do it and afraid I would get urine all over myself and my clothing. I have been looking at the possibility of moving to an eco-village where composting potties are the norm, but the thought of peeing outside would take a lot of getting used to. I guess I would need my own pink bucket inside.

Okay here it is:

I pee all the time outside. Firmly Camp B

Privacy is easy to find, remember you're half the size squatting down. At nighttime I'll pee anywhere even in a city, just get in the shadows somewhere.

Mess? No. You know what's messy? Underwear, seriously. Get rid of it and drip/shake a bit and you'll be fine. I could also talk about which bleeding materials to use for outdoor peeing, but THAT may be a bit much for this forum. We'll see...

If you want toilet paper try alder leaves, jerusalem sage leaves, thimbleberry leaves, etc

Method: Both skirts and pants, position around the knee area and off the ground (for skirts). Stick your butt Out and then Down. I can do the whole positioning thing, pee, and get back up fully clothed in less time then someone else can say "where is the bathroom?" Seriously. Friends are always impressed by this I'm SURE I could win a contest.

I'm also very good at stopping right away if need be and getting pants back on. This is a very important skill in not-so-private situations. Also why I would win a contest

Splashing: nothing, if you're peeing where there's vegetation. If you're peeing on bare ground yes there's splash.

Stand up: sure, but i think it's overrated. It feels more exposed. Yes I have peed on a fire in order to put it out. But its a little too warm for my comfort really.

Snow: women don't make a  puddle of yellow it just makes an inch size yellow punch through the snow. Easy enough to stomp on after and noone will know the difference

Yellowing of Grass: I've NEVER noticed it, and that's saying quite something. Maybe I just drink enough water

Smell: The one drawback, that guys also have to deal with too, is smell. I live in the northwest so 3 seasons its rainy enough that urine smell isn't issue. But during the summer it can be dry and if you pee all the time in same-ish spot, that's trouble. So that's when peeing on the compost or, as mentioned, the straw bale, is really a good idea.

and Poop: On the way to the outhouse, which should have dry deposits, I stop to pee first. It's easier to pee without pooping than poop without peeing. Am I right?

Some great quotes from my life.

My friend Dylan on a walk through La Grande, Oregon  "Good grief Kelda, going for a walk with you is like walking the dog! You pee everywhere!"  Me "hey shut up I just had a lot of tea tonight ok?"

A past landlord "You know that chestnut tree has never looked healthier than it has since you've been living in it"  (hmmmm. why is that? )

My Mom, leaving a note for me of things to do while I'm housesitting, big letters " DON'T PEE IN THE YARD!" (how'd she know i was peeing in the yard? must've looked out the window or something... )



Practice makes perfect. I also teach young women how to pee when I'm a camp counselor. You cant' start too young

Kelda O. wrote:
I could also talk about which bleeding materials to use for outdoor peeing, but THAT may be a bit much for this forum. We'll see...

I actually would be interested in that topic and wanted to ask about it but I did not want to up the gross factor any more than needed in mixed company.

If I'm in one spot, like not travelling, and I've got access to a bucket, then cloth pads etc. Enough to be changed regular-like, soaked and washed

If I'm travelling or hiking or something, then the sponge or the cup. Both can be squeezed out/emptied and then re-inserted. I just have water handy to wash up afterwards.

So, in hiking scenario, it can be as easy as grabbing a water bottle and walking behind a bush. Compare this to throw-aways like tampons or pads. First you have to find the things in your pack, and then you have to have a gross trash bag for it all that you have to carry with you. It's too complicated.

Recently I was in Haiti and bleeding, and I even remarked to my friends how wonderfully the cup had worked out. The toilet situation is GROSS there. And if I don't have to poop than I'm not going in a latrine. (Our team is working on a better scenario) So anyway give me a square patch of grass and my water bottle and I'm fine. Downside is privacy because it takes a bit longer than just peeing, so chances of someone walking by are a lot higher. Of course I'd make sure that water was filtered too, or that could be a gross situation too. Picture all the pad gizmos I'd have to carry otherwise, and that they don't have any kind of trash-disposal system of any kind. eek

So yes it does leave the area a little, or a lot, bloodied. Of course wonderful for the soil. I'm assuming sterile, unless there's a blood disease situation like AIDS, right? And a little shoe-scuffing after can hide it.

Just my thoughts

It is not sterile. Blood is sterile inside your veins (mostly), but anything that opens to the outside world (other than your urinary tract is unlikely to be sterile, that's why TSS happen, Staph. naturally living in the body feeds off the blood in the tampon and populations build to massive levels over the course of 12 hours and the toxins produced go in through the mucus membrane. Incidentally everyone is constantly shedding retroviruses, even in their blood. They are everywhere, its best to avoid sharing bodily fluids with too many people.

Privacy is easy to find?    I'm not so sure about that...  I once spent five hours stuck in a car when I was travelling through Spain along minor roads which, while not busy, had enough cars going along them to make it 'risky' to just stop and hope I'd get away with peeing on the side of the road.  For five whole hours there was *nowhere* I could pee.  Once we found a huge rock and I made my other half stop and made a run for the other side of the rock only to discover a sheer drop the other side.  The boys would just stop and turn their back on the traffic, but I was seriously unhappy by the end of the day, much to the boys' amusement.  If I travel again, I'm going to invest in one of these...



It's a shewee.  Check out shewee.com - also available in pink!

If you stick on the larger roads in Spain, you will find little layby's/pull offs with rows of conveniently placed short hedges set at angles for people to pee behind.

And as for blood, I hate pads, I can't wear tampons, and I'm a complete convert to cups - mine's purple!!!  I haven't yet had to do an outdoor change, but then I bleed like a stuck pig and I think I'd need a shovel to dig a hole and bury the mess for the sake of public hygeine and safety if I did.  As it is it all gets emptied into the humanure bucket and hot composted, so everyone's happy. 

Here's an info sheet on how to use a shewee...

I have never objected to men making themselves at home naturally in the garden , but privacy is a small issue on a smaller acreage with homes within plain sight. I really should not be so shy , afterall I have bad eyesight and my neighbours are older than me and  may not see any better than I or they might think it amusing because I find as I get older I am more tolerant .  At night certainly I would not blink at going outside and I have done that at night to mark my territory for the coyotes and neighbours dogs in no uncertain terms.  Recently I tried to give that same suggestion to a raccoon that was ripping everything out of my garbage cans every night but that one never took the hint.
I am firmly of the opinion that it is not a bad thing at all and likely preferable to using the biffy but I'm modest enough to not choose to do so in front of family and friends.

For years I worked at a historic site here in town --a small rural Southern town--where we received foreign visitors and from all over the United States.  Across the street from the historic site was a health clinic which catered to the poverty and aged in the community.

Apparently, the male workers in this clinic thought the side of the clinic facing the State Highway was an isolated place.  Much to the amusement of visitors at historic site quite often you could see 3 or 4 of the workers peeing against the wall of the health clinic.

To me--this behavior defined our town to the international community.  And I thought grown men should know better than to pee in sight of a public highway and a major tourist attraction for the South.

wombat wrote:

To me--this behavior defined our town to the international community.  And I thought grown men should know better than to pee in sight of a public highway and a major tourist attraction for the South.

I don't disagree with you but I just have to guess.  Was it St. Petersburg?

Having been raised mostly in the 'bush' in Alaska, I don't mind using the outdoors for a toilet, but do require privacy.  If alongside the road, I get as far away from the road as it takes to be invisible from the road.  (Even when that requires climbing over a six-to-eight foot snowdrift, LOL!)  We usually carry a bag for the TP. 

Here, our one-acre lot is flat and only has grass growing on it, so privacy would be impossible.  If we ever get enough vegetation growing to provide privacy, then I might change my mind. 

I did read an article one time by some woman who was on a trek with several other people, mostly guys.  She wore long skirts (this was modern times) and when she needed to go, had only to step aside and squat, because her long skirts provided sufficient privacy.  Presumably she wasn't wearing undies!

Kathleen

gary gregory: 

This is it.  The town is in rural Alabama.  Well o.k. it is out in the toolies.  But still--is that the message we want to send to foreign and national tourists?




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnolia_Grove_(Greensboro,_Alabama)

Note:  For some reason the wikipedia link to this article is messed up.  You can find the page by searching wikipedia articles for Magnolia Grove (Greensboro, Alabama).

http://www.aviewofamerica.com/Alabama/Attractions/magnoliagrove.htm
What a beautiful place!  I understand your concern.    I'll bet most tourists can't keep their eyes off the historic grounds and don't look elsewhere.

Here is an American link for the Shewee. I ordered one and am looking forward to adding free nitrogen to my garden without wowing the neighbors!  Also should be handy for hiking. I ordered the extreme package.

katchmoleen wrote:
Here is an American link for the Shewee. I ordered one and am looking forward to adding free nitrogen to my garden without wowing the neighbors!  Also should be handy for hiking. I ordered the extreme package.

Link?

OOPS! 
http://www.sheweeusa.com/shop/


Emerson, your link is for the Brit store.

When you have it, it would be good to hear your impressions - especially since you are not selling it. 

I was kinda hoping that with this thread, those women that were less than keen on peeing outside might gain some understanding so that it seemed not so bad.  Permaculture farms all over the world might then benefit. 

And still, it seems, that this information and these tips are not quite enough to cross this barrier? 

So, perhaps a purchased product would help?

Yes, I will surely let you know.

I do not like squatting due to the splash factor, and also (ALERT TMI) as women age, their anatomy changes and things don't come out in a nice straight stream....more likely to come out sideways etc. And that's all I'll say about that! 

Talking about this awkward stuff is what I wanted to bulldoze through in the hopes that what appears here will help improve things.

So with the sideways factor - on a toilet, some of the issues are mitigated, but outside you could end up wetting your shoes, your leg, etc.  Is that about right?

If that is the case, then I wonder if there are women that have experiences this issue and have come up with solutions.  Solutions that are not normally shared because there generally isn't an opportunity to share this sort of thing.