Matthew Nistico

Anne Miller wrote:This thread has an illustration of what a haybox cooker is:

From Here

I decided long ago that using actual hay in a hay box cooker - or any other loose fill - is just a mess waiting to happen.  Who wants a mess in their kitchen?

I intend instead to build several permanent hay boxes using molded solid insulation, with each box designed around a different cooking pot to provide an instant, perfect fit.  I will probably use Styrofoam or some other solid foam for expediency's sake, but this could be a perfect use case for myco-insulation.

I was pleased to see the YouTube link posted above that illustrates my imagined design perfectly!

Yeardly Arthur wrote:Car windshields (front) and sunroofs block around 98% of all UV light (UVA and UVB). Side and rear windows vary, blocking most UVB, and 40 to 70% of UVA.
The roof tends to block 100% of all solar radiation, but does a good job of holding in the heat through thermal transfer and convection.

Good point!

Ray Schmidt wrote:As to cleaning, wile not relevant to restoring cast iron: for day to day I simply fill with water and let soak a bit and all my cooking sins easily wash away.

I'm not sure I understand... are you saying that you fill your cast iron pots with water and let soak between cleanings?

One more important point that I forgot to mention.  Above, I wrote...

Matthew Nistico wrote:...unless one is shooting for self-sufficiency way, way off the grid - like homesteading alone in the deep Alaskan bush - or else one is prepp'ing for the apocalypse, I don't see how storing grain for years is truly that important.  Many of us permies are not much more than hobby farmers, if we're honest.  By that, I mean that we may delight in money saved and nutrition enhanced in our gardens, but it isn't our livelihood and we still have the continental food distribution system to rely on.  I for one place a higher premium on low maintenance, easy to grow, easy to harvest crops vs crops that would "see me through the winter."

I should have noted that I also place a higher premium on high value crops.  By that do I mean high caloric value per acre cultivated?  No.  I mean high dollar value.  I grow lots of herbs, which have minimal caloric value.  But I like to cook with lots of fresh herbs and they command a high price at the grocery store.  So, in a relatively small garden bed area I can keep myself in plenty of herbs and save a disproportionate amount off of my grocery bill.  By that same logic, especially with perennial herbs - rosemary, sage, mint, oregano, lemon balm, etc. - I can command a high price at the farmers market for minimal space and, especially, effort invested.

Grains and grain products - and even root crops, for that matter - are not particularly high value.  They are available year round at affordable prices via the mainstream system and usually at a quality comparable to homegrown.  So why not rely on that supply of calories while it is available and dedicate most of my limited space and effort to crops with specific virtues other than storable bulk calories?

Such other specific virtues would include 1) minimal inputs/maintenance required for ongoing harvests (fruit trees and berry bushes); 2) high dollar value (herbs and the odd rarity one just can't find at the store); or 3) homegrown quality that can't be matched by commercially available options (summer tomatoes, yum!).

In general, I would agree with Mr. Lawton.  In my context - small scale amateur homesteader - growing most grains seems like way too much trouble compared to growing root vegetables.  Or rather, it's not growing them that poses the difficulty, but harvesting and processing.

Posters above have noted the superior storage quality of grains: years instead of months.  Very true, and indeed this was invaluable historically to provide for food security, creating the basis for sedentary, complex civilizations, etc., as has been discussed.

That is all well and good, but unless one is shooting for self-sufficiency way, way off the grid - like homesteading alone in the deep Alaskan bush - or else one is prepp'ing for the apocalypse, I don't see how storing grain for years is truly that important.  Many of us permies are not much more than hobby farmers, if we're honest.  By that, I mean that we may delight in money saved and nutrition enhanced in our gardens, but it isn't our livelihood and we still have the continental food distribution system to rely on.  I for one place a higher premium on low maintenance, easy to grow, easy to harvest crops vs crops that would "see me through the winter."

Similarly, while I do practice some food preservation, I am just as inclined to sell excess crops while they are fresh and skip the extra steps, knowing that I can buy food as necessary in the off season.  I am lucky enough to have access to a local, online farmers market that has proven very convenient to both buy and sell.  Federal reserve notes offer a far less labor-intensive form in which to "preserve the surplus."

Having said all that, I am still toying with the idea of growing one cereal, a dwarf variety of grain sorghum.  My readings suggest that it is the easiest and most practical cereal for home-scale producers in moderate climates (not too hot, not too cold, not too dry).  But I haven't yet put this theory to the test, so don't quote me on that.

Kit Collins wrote:

But as for the quote above, I am baffled by your logic.  

Matthew, basically for me it's a matter of keeping things simple. I guess I've made things too complicated in the past and I'm reformed now! Natural and simple is generally better; complicated and artificial is generally not as good. That's become a matter of faith for me, but I'm still willing and quite able to read actual science. It's just that I haven't actually seen a study on the "science of nutrition in fruit dehydration" yet.  From my experience doing it, it occurs to me that it is nearly impossible to do dehydration in a low-tech manner without sun/UV exposure. It would only be possible in the hottest, most arid locations. So logically, it is very likely that the "ancients" would have typically dried fruit (and other food) with direct sun. Seems like they did OK with it too. So I'm not worried at all about it.

Fair enough.  As a general rule of thumb, I would agree: simple and natural are often preferable ways to design most systems.  Nor would I be overly worried about loss of nutrients if I were operating a passive solar dehydrator, such as a PVD.  I would say the results (slightly nutrient-deprived dried fruits and veggies) are acceptable for the amount of effort expended (minimal).  And for sure, people have dried foods under direct sunlight for millennia and similarly found the results acceptable.

Still, that doesn't make it optimal.  I for one would be willing to expend the minor expense of running an electric dehydrator (fast drying with minimal nutrient loss) or to expend the effort to build a more complex solar dehydrator along the lines of those designs Paul has published here on Permies (significant time to build, but free to operate with a large capacity).  But I'm not trying to turn this thread into a debate between different dehydrator designs.  Yes, as you said, a simple, passive, tray-of-fruit-in-the-window-of-your-car type system will almost invariably involve direct sun/UV exposure to your food.  So be it.

It was mostly just the way you phrased your statement - "Can't get much more natural than sunlight" - which struck me as odd, as it seems to imply that anything in its natural state or exposed to natural elements must be benign.  Apple trees and castor plants are lovely and very useful parts of nature.  But chew on the seeds of either and you will quickly discover how benign they are, since both are 100% naturally poisonous.

Kit Collins wrote:I'm skeptical about sunlight UV being bad for fruit. Can't get much more natural than sunlight. Would like to see actual science on those claims. Plus, it would just be MUCH more difficult to dehydrate passively without direct sun, so if there was a small tradeoff in some vitamins, it would still be worth it. KISS!

First of all, I love your photos illustrating PVD of plums into prunes.  Thanks for sharing!

But as for the quote above, I am baffled by your logic.  True, you can't get much more natural than sunlight.  But there are many 100% natural phenomena that stimulate the breakdown of complex organic molecules as part of the processes we lump under the term "decay."  That's great for nature as a wholistic system, but not so great for humans attempting to preserve edible foodstuffs.  I have made the mistake in the past of passively air drying herbs in direct sunlight, and they browned far faster than when I switched to doing so in the shade.

Though you make a good point that some nutrient loss may be an acceptable tradeoff to enable the entire passive solar dehydration system to work effectively before the food spoils.

Though my hands on experience is limited, my understanding of dehydrators is that you don't need heat in order to dry food; you need airflow.  Heat helps, since hot air can absorb more moisture, but it isn't strictly necessary given adequate airflow.  Hence some solar dehydrator designs collect solar energy upstream from the food, thus driving airflow without directing heat to the food itself.  But of course I'm now discussing more complex designs than the simple passive arrangements that are the subject of this thread.

Back to the issue of nutrient degradation.  I'm no nutritionist, so I'm not familiar with any original science to share.  Here is Google's AI summary, which both supports my assertion but also lists actual benefits of "controlled" and "moderate" exposure, neither of which adjective I suspect can be assigned to a solar food dehydrator:

Nutrients Most Affected UV light is particularly harsh on light-sensitive compounds. The most vulnerable nutrients include:
- Vitamins C & E: These are the most sensitive to light and will degrade rapidly upon UV exposure.
- Vitamins A & B2 (Riboflavin): Will quickly break down; for example, milk left out under UV light loses Vitamin A in just a few hours.
- Antioxidants: Can undergo oxidative degradation as they are used up neutralizing the reactive oxygen species (ROS) created by UV stress.
Unwanted Side Effects Beyond losing nutritional value, UV light accelerates fat oxidation, which causes fats and oils in foods to go rancid, leading to foul odors and off-tastes.
Beneficial Effects (Specific Cases) In some controlled agricultural and food science settings, low-dose UV treatment is intentionally used to boost specific nutrients:
- Vitamin D: Moderate UV exposure is famously used to boost Vitamin D levels in edible mushrooms and bread.
- Bioactive Compounds: Controlled UV-A exposure has been shown to temporarily increase lycopene and phenolic compounds in some vegetables like tomatoes.

brian keath wrote:I would definitely avoid oils labeled "linseed oil", as "flax seed oil" is usually meant to be safe to ingest and the other is usually not.

Excellent point!  Linseed oil sold in hardware stores and often used on furniture is not pure.  As I think was mentioned above, it has chemical additives.  Probably labeled as not food safe if you read the small print.

I usually season and rub down my iron with whatever medium- or high-temp cooking oils I already have in my kitchen.  Often lard or duck fat or refined avocado oil.  I do add a few drops of flax seed oil to salad dressings, but I don't cook with it, so it never occurred to me to use it on my cast iron.

David Milano wrote:To recondition an old, rusted, crusted pan, burning in a wood stove or a self-cleaning oven are first rate choices. The key there is to not remove the pan from the fire or oven until it has completely cooled. Again, rate is key, but this time it’s crucial at the back end. Fast cooling will crack an iron pan. Once the firebox or oven has fully cooled, remove the pan and scrub lightly with 0000 steel wool or a green scrubbie and soap as necessary. Rinse real well and then season, and re-season, and maybe re-season again if the surface doesn’t look smooth and slick.

A last note... Lard is my first choice for seasoning and most cooking because we render it ourselves and have it by the bucketful, but I’ve used other oils as well. So long as I followed the long and slow seasoning method, none have been a problem.

Good stuff!  Just a note to the reader inexperienced with cast iron: all of this talk about restoration and seasoning is how you get a piece of cast iron ready for use the first time.  Once in regular kitchen use, if you employ proper procedures for cooking and cleaning, you should never have to season your iron again, as it will continue to build layers of polymerized oils during cooking.  Those layers fill in any divots in the metal to create the smooth, shiny, non-stick surface.

As for cooking, Jocelyn and Paul teach us that the key is using the right spatula.  That's good advice!  Following their advice, I've developed several high-quality old/new iron skillets that only function better and better over the years without ever needing to be re-seasoned.  You want a metal spatula WITH a straight front edge but WITHOUT sharp corners.  No wood, no plastic.  Wood or plastic spatulas will of course get your food cooked, but they won't care for your iron.  As you cook with a proper metal spatula, it scrapes away any tall bits of seasoning that build up, maintaining that flat, smooth cooking surface, but without gouging down into the seasoning layer as might happen with sharp corners.

As for cleaning...

David Milano wrote:To clean a properly seasoned pan, use a bit of soap, lots of water, and if necessary a plastic scraper. While you can damage the surface with harsh soaps (like dishwasher soap) a bit of regular old dish soap won’t hurt a thing. Note that it is very possible to abrade seasoning off. Never use steel wool or stainless wool, and avoid the stiffer plastic scrubbies unless you have a very light touch. Never use salt. Salt is sometimes suggested in seemingly reliable treatises, but salt is a serious abrasive—no good. When finished at the sink, dry the pan thoroughly before putting away. I usually do the drying with a paper towel.

I have to disagree here.  I have absolutely used salt rubbed in with paper towels effectively as a dry abrasive to clean cast iron.  I don't recommend it, however, because it's messy and requires entirely too much elbow grease.  Instead, I DO use stainless steel chainmail AND if necessary steel wool to clean my iron cookware, but I DON'T use soap.  Lots of hot water and 20 seconds of scrubbing with the chainmail gets my skillets clean without excessive wear on the seasoning layer.  If I feel it is required, I sometimes follow up with a light scrub with steel wool.  Dry very thoroughly.  Then I will often rub a few drops of oil across all surfaces of the dry iron with a paper towel before hanging it up.

I've been following this cleaning routine for years and, as I wrote above, my skillets only continue to get better and better.  I can slide eggs from my skillets more cleanly than from commercial non-stick-coated pans!

Kathleen Sanderson wrote:

Alder Burns wrote:The old greenhouse at the farm I used to live at, shut up and with a fan running on the screens, is how I know that a whole goat, boned out and sliced into small slivers, will fit into six quart jars when dried down!

I'm curious about the dried goat meat, since your climate shouldn't be too terribly different from ours in south-central KY - does dried meat keep well? I've worried about it drawing moisture and getting moldy. (I have goats - and also two chest freezers, but I'd like to keep some meat in ways that don't require electricity, in case the power goes out. I could can some of the meat, and have done, but wondered if drying it would work here.)

What is jerky if not dried meat?  I know the process for making jerky is slightly more complicated than that, but not much.

Given the climate and the dehydrating technology, I'd worry about the total drying time required.  Raw meat is something you'd want to dry quickly, not over several days.  I'd want to keep the windows of my PVD closed to keep flies off of the meat, but that also restricts air flow.  Hence Alder Burns' mention of using a fan, I'm sure.  I'd also be very curious to read about Alder Burns' experience with this.

If one is already cutting meat into small enough pieces to be dehydrated - i.e. jerky slices - vacuum sealing the dried product in glass mason jars would be an excellent solution for long term storage without absorbing moisture out of the atmosphere.  A Food Saver with an accessory attachment + a jar sealing kit + some large mason jars is a modest investment that would do very well for preserving jerky... and any and all other dry goods!  I love mine, and I use the jar sealer far more often than the main plastic bag sealing function.  Compared to the plastic bags, mason jars for vacuum sealing dry goods are infinitely reusable and work more reliably in my experience.  Fairly large mason jars exist, and I have found that acquiring free, used mason jars is definitely possible if you scan the interwebs often.

Salt curing and smoking meats are also tried-&-true refrigeration-free methods for preserving meat.  There will be copious information available online for both techniques.  Plus, you can salt and smoke larger chunks of meat, up to and including whole joints; you don't have to process everything down to jerky-sized slices.