Food for a year

Paracelsus wrote:
Last spring I went on a low-carb diet, aiming for less than 60g carb/day in order to lower my blood sugar. It did work for that, and I lost 25 lbs and felt pretty good, but I hit a serious bump in the road when winter started and no matter what I did, I could not get warm. One night, just to see what would happen, I ate some raisins. I felt warm almost right away. This warmth thing has been a problem for me all winter. I don't know how people living in the Arctic who don't eat much in the way of carbs stay warm. They must be very stoical. "Yeah, it's cold. Deal."

Being low-carb has meant I have had to seriously modify my food cache and garden plans. Not fruit trees but currants, gooseberries, and sunflowers. Not fruit preserves but pickled vegetables. Not potatoes but leafy greens and pole beans. Not lentils and barley but soybeans and nuts. One project for this summer--growing flax for seeds.

No carbs means you need lots of fat instead. People living in the arctic, eat a lot more fat. They have bear, seal and whale. As someone in one of these forums said, it takes time for the body to switch to getting its energy from fat instead of carbs. I have a son who is no starch or sugars besides fruit and he automatically takes the fattiest parts of the meat when he eats. I assume you are measuring your Blood sugar all the time (my Yf was when she was pregnant last time)... There are starches and starches also sugars and sugars. Fiber is a starch but should still be ok as we don't digest it well, but most starch will raise BS. There are two main types of sugars as well, mono and bi. I have read that in general mono-saccharides affect peoples BS a lot less. That would have been the raisins you tried. As you are monitoring your BS anyway, you might want to see what happens 2 hours after some well ripe fruit.The heavier sugars come from processed sugar and milk etc. Look up SCD diet for a full list... It may (or not) work for you. Go by what your BS monitor tells you. If you are feeling cold, you still haven't got your diet right.

If lots of fat turns you off (it sounds yucky to many of us), throw a chicken in the crock pot over night and drink the soup for the next 5 days (by then you will have gotten just about everything there is to get out of it ) adding water when you take some out. This also works with lamb, beef, or fish (or whatever meat so long as it was healthy)

this is an interesting thread!

craftylittlemonkey wrote:
here is a raw food high fruit vegan athlete.
And he is only one of many. 2 years ago an online acquaintance, David Mason, and long time fruitarian underwent extensive testing (by a party wishing to illustrate the shortcomings of a fruitarian diet) to see where his nutrient levels were at and had INCREDIBLE results, not one deficiency, not in B12 or D3 or anything else at all.

Many diets for many people, there is no one way that suits us all.

there is also a lot of flim-flammery out there on the internet when it comes to diets.  my understanding is that b-12 deficiencies can take 10 years or more to show up.  but there is no evidence i have found that 100% raw food vegans or fruititarians can get b-12 from what they eat.

[url=http://www.veganhealth.org/articles/cooking]

"Raw Food Diets from veganhealth.org" wrote:[/url]
In a 2005 study, raw foodists were eating an average of 579 mg of calcium per day and they had a lower average bone mineral density than a control group of non-vegetarians (2).

In addition to calcium intake possibly being an issue for bones, raw foodist women often have such low body fat that they do not produce enough estrogen to continue menstruating, a condition associated with poor bone health. A 1999 study showed that 30% of raw foodist women in their study had partial to complete amenorrhea (1). Raw foodist women should make sure they are eating enough calories to prevent amenorrhea.

Protein might be an issue for many raw foodists. The amino acid lysine is quite limited in plant foods other than legumes and legumes are generally not eaten in large amounts in raw foods diets. The idea that protein is important is often scoffed at in vegan and raw foodist circles, but long-term, mild protein deficiency could have an impact on bones and possibly other important tissues. If you are a raw foods vegan who eats less than 100% raw foods, you might want to include ample amounts of legumes as your cooked food.

there are also some studies collected here:  http://www.beyondveg.com/cat/links-out/raw-research.shtml

Yeah, I measure my blood sugar a lot and did so especially the first couple months on this diet. I wish I could say I don't like fat, but I do and I eat a lot of it in the form of nuts, seeds, cream, cheeses, eggs, and oil for dressing and pan-frying. I don't eat much meat, mostly only fish about twice a month. The diet is no grains, no legumes except soy, no starch or starchy vegs, no sugar, and only a small amount of fruit, berries being preferred because they have more fiber, and even then only mixed with a fat to slow down absorption. Regular fruit sent my blood sugar quite high, even something like an apple, much less my wonderful peaches canned in spiced honey and brandy. I didn't want to give up fruit entirely--that's what the really low carb diet says to do--so now I am making wine. Dry white wines are okay and even can help lower blood sugar.

I actually started out with the Specific Carbohydrate Diet you mention--I decided to see what getting rid of grains entirely would do for my blood sugar, and I found the Grain-Free Gourmet cookbook, which is a great help. I use almond meal instead of grain flour now, and that's extra nice because I could theoretically grow that, whereas grain is out of the question on my city lot. One thing I noticed was that going off grains entirely made a skin rash I've had for years go away. When I fell off the wagon when winter seriously kicked in, the rash came back with a vengence. I have wondered if it is due to GMO grain.

christhamrin wrote:
the future of the world is nuts.

ED: fixed the link -

I just looked at this link today--wow! This company is researching using hazelnuts for biodiesel and has a whole portion of their website dedicated to explaining and promoting "woody ag." Love it! 

Paracelsus wrote:
One thing I noticed was that going off grains entirely made a skin rash I've had for years go away. When I fell off the wagon when winter seriously kicked in, the rash came back with a vengence. I have wondered if it is due to GMO grain.

There's a rash associated with celiac disease (gluten intolerance) called dermatitis herpetiformis (not related to herpes in any way, despite what the name might seem to imply), and also rashes that are fed by systemic (candida) yeast overgrowth.

The latter is part of my problem and why I've been reading with interest all the robust knowledge you've all been sharing about blood sugar and low carb diets! Thanks everyone!

is the rash like eczema?  i used to get that a lot on my arms.  aren't people with celiac disease also somewhat intolerant of dairy?

It's a lot like hives--made up of bumps that are very itchy. No blisters, as in the celiac one, apparently. And it's on my forearms. My doctor thought it was an allergy symptom.

Emerson White wrote:
No, it's not a phase, it's a terminal condition that eventually leads to death. People have a powerful innate urge to not starve to death, as a result they adjust their diets, it gets harder and harder to not cheat until they start cheating. Often times it's as simple as switching salad dressings or finding a sweeter tomato.

I don't know how long it takes for symptoms to show up, I think it depends on a lot of different factors, both genetic and environmental.

Well this all seems very strange to me. I have read articles like the one at the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition linked above that say things like

"The theoretical minimal level of carbohydrate (CHO) intake is zero,

I have been low carbing for years. I get a few carbs from things like leafy salad vegetables and courgettes (zucchinis) but get no urge to eat something with more carbs.

I have never heard of anybody suffering a carbohydrate deficiency even though I have visited several low carbs forums on and off over the years. I had a bit of a search on Google and didn't  find anything to be concerned about.

I would appreciate it if folks would start a new thread in the herb forum to talk about nutrtion.  Maybe copy a lot of the comments from here over to there.

Beans are a good example of those hidden carbs, ever wonder what that starchy endosperm is filled with? Carbs. Nuts also contain lots of carbohydrates.

It's the people who try and make it one steak and bacon and eggs with the occasional strip of lettuce thrown in that tend to not do so well.

Paracelsus wrote:
I don't eat much meat, mostly only fish about twice a month. The diet is no grains, no legumes except soy,

my understanding is that soy tends to be a nutrient minus... you don't digest it, but it absorbs nutrients on it's way through and removes them from your body. Fermented may be ok.

I actually started out with the Specific Carbohydrate Diet you mention--I decided to see what getting rid of grains entirely would do for my blood sugar, and I found the Grain-Free Gourmet cookbook, which is a great help. I use almond meal instead of grain flour now, and that's extra nice because I could theoretically grow that, whereas grain is out of the question on my city lot. One thing I noticed was that going off grains entirely made a skin rash I've had for years go away. When I fell off the wagon when winter seriously kicked in, the rash came back with a vengence. I have wondered if it is due to GMO grain.

With SCD there shouldn't have been much grains left, certainly none of the cereal grains. Fermented foods are supposed to be good for these things too.

paul wheaton wrote:
I would appreciate it if folks would start a new thread in the herb forum to talk about nutrtion.  Maybe copy a lot of the comments from here over to there.

That might be useful, but how can one separate "Food for a year" from diet and nutrition?? Shouldn't a permaculture plan be scaled to a good diet (whatever that is)?? 

I only brought up diet because of how much it changed what I cached as food and what I grow. I thought I had my cache for a year pretty much covered with 75 lbs each of barley, rice, lentils, black beans, garbanzos, and chana dal. Now all of those are no good for me. And I no longer have any interest in growing regular fruit trees and feel glad I only spent the money on one instead of a bunch. Thinking about dietary choices also made me see some problems with stuff like traditional fruit trees that I had kind of ignored--they require spraying and pruning to keep them productive in a way berries do not. It also made me consider more seriously different kinds of nuts and seeds I can grow here, and in particular on rented land. Now my cache will include a lot of leafy stuff I am growing this summer that I will toss with ground nuts and dehydrate; I never would have considered that before. So my year of food will be completely different not only from what it was, but from the original list someone put up.

Paracelsus wrote:
I only brought up diet because of how much it changed what I cached as food and what I grow. I thought I had my cache for a year pretty much covered with 75 lbs each of barley, rice, lentils, black beans, garbanzos, and chana dal. Now all of those are no good for me. And I no longer have any interest in growing regular fruit trees and feel glad I only spent the money on one instead of a bunch. Thinking about dietary choices also made me see some problems with stuff like traditional fruit trees that I had kind of ignored--they require spraying and pruning to keep them productive in a way berries do not. It also made me consider more seriously different kinds of nuts and seeds I can grow here, and in particular on rented land. Now my cache will include a lot of leafy stuff I am growing this summer that I will toss with ground nuts and dehydrate; I never would have considered that before. So my year of food will be completely different not only from what it was, but from the original list someone put up.

Very interesting.
I have recently purchased a dehydrator and am thinking of berries this summer. Would love to hear more about what you are drying in the foody threads...

Emerson White wrote:
Beans are a good example of those hidden carbs, ever wonder what that starchy endosperm is filled with? Carbs. Nuts also contain lots of carbohydrates.

It's the people who try and make it one steak and bacon and eggs with the occasional strip of lettuce thrown in that tend to not do so well.

That's my point. I don't eat beans and I havn't eaten any nuts in very many months. I eat things similar to "steak and bacon and eggs with the occasional strip of lettuce" yet I am doing great. In fact I'm doing far better than most people my age who are no doubt eating lots of carbs.

paul wheaton wrote:
I would appreciate it if folks would start a new thread in the herb forum to talk about nutrtion.  Maybe copy a lot of the comments from here over to there.

It's actually very relevant to the topic. Food is nutrition. It's no good just having a years worth of something to eat. What we need is a years worth of nutrition.
btw I didn't know meat was a herb. 

Warren David wrote:
btw I didn't know meat was a herb. 

Sure it is.  "All flesh is grass, and all its loveliness is like the flower of the field." (Isiah 40:6) 

Warren, you workout quite a bit though don't you? That makes up for a multitude of sins. For a while anyhow. You just have no idea how this sort of diet will affect you long term.
There are quite a few body builders on the raw vegan site that used to eat a meat heavy diet and feel and perform better now. It's a growing trend with pro wrestlers too I hear, just read an article about that the other day.
Anyhow, you are convinced that this is the diet for you so I do hope it works out for you in the end.

My ideal diet grown at home would include lots and lots of vegies, plenty of nuts, fruit, some eggs, and small quantities of meat.  But the largest volume of food by far would be fresh vegies.  Calories would be from tubers, nuts, seeds, and meat.  Probably virtually no grains.

But I am very far away from being able to grow this diet! 

It's unquestionably true that for the average person who wants to start producing some of their own food, or storing food seriously, diet must change.  This is something that isn't intuitively obvious, in my opinion.  Before you attempt to grow food, you probably haven't fully appreciated how your climate is going to determine what you can produce and that will then affect what you eat.  And before you get serious about food storage, you haven't considered the fact that you must store things which store well, and then eat them.  Storing what you don't eat now, and don't adapt your diet to include is just a waste of money and resources.

For us, as I guess it is for most people, it's been a gradual process.  We gave up lots of things that were common parts of our diet: bananas, soda, breakfast cereal, lunch meat, store-bought bread, out of season vegetables.  We replaced conventional meats, dairy, fruits, and eggs with things we either produce ourselves, or get from local sources in season.  And we took a hard look at incorporating what can grow where we are into our diets.  We weren't much on squash, but we eat it now because it stores well and grows here.  We eat a lot more potatoes and beets in winter for the same reason.  We make our own cider and ferment some of it, instead of drinking orange juice.  These changes didn't all happen at once.  We made mistakes, had crop failures, and let things in storage go to waste.  I think you need to start somewhere, see what works or what you can make work, and make a commitment to keep changing things bit by bit.  We still don't provide all our own food or even source 100% of it locally and in season.  But we're much, much closer to that today than we were five years ago.  And I'm still working on improving that.

That's exactly how I see it too Kate.

When I saw the list of "food for a year" in the first post my first thought was "how boring !".

We're in the lucky situation to have delicious food which can be stored for many, many years and I add to the stash each year so, for example, a good tomato year can compensate for a year when there's blight and some seasons we have loads of mushrooms and none the next and so on. Preparing and storing what's in season (Even if you have to buy it) is a normal way of coping when there's not much food around.

Supplement stored food with seasonal food from the garden plus anything you can forage for or swop and you have a tasty, interesting and nutritious Permaculture diet.

craftylittlemonkey wrote:
Warren, you workout quite a bit though don't you? That makes up for a multitude of sins. For a while anyhow.

I don't workout very much at all actually and not very intensely either. About 20 mins per session 3 or more times per week. I am not a bodybuilder. My workouts are to keep me fit and are based on things I was doing when I was having to go to a physio.
Exercise is after all just a replacement for the physical work people used to do. My usual day may not be any more physically demanding than that of many of the farmers on this board. Eating right and doing plenty of physical stuff is what keeps you trim. Muscles don't know the difference between a dumbbell or a spade. They just know when they are being worked and will respond accordingly. 

There are quite a few body builders on the raw vegan site that used to eat a meat heavy diet and feel and perform better now. It's a growing trend with pro wrestlers too I hear, just read an article about that the other day.

Well good for them. I have no problem with people eating whatever they want to eat but I  have not been talking about the vegan diet in this thread. My interest in this thread is the discussion  about carbs (or lack of). 

You just have no idea how this sort of diet will affect you long term.

Correct and you have no idea how your diet will affect you long term either but I do know how badly a higher carbohydrate diet affects me in the short term and it's not great.

Anyhow, you are convinced that this is the diet for you so I do hope it works out for you in the end.

All I'm doing is asking questions. Some people may be quite happy to sit back and just accept statements made about carbs being essential but as I have read many times at places such as the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition and elsewhere that carbs are not essential and also because I have found that I seem to get by just fine on tiny amounts of carbs (I've not tried cutting them out completely and at present have no reason to) so when when somebody says they are essential and without enough of them I could be having some pretty serious health problems in the future, then I want to know more.

Enough people have lived for many years following (healthy, not high starchy carbs and tofu cheese) vegetarian or vegan diets that I'm not worried about either having anything other than a positive impact on my health but I can't say the same for a low veg high protein diet. Aside from Atkin's I've never even heard of anyone eating like that, not for health reasons anyhow.

I have found some really good resources on these sites:
First is the books and links on this blog (as well as it's material).
http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/

and looking into some of Weston A. Price's Research:
http://www.westonaprice.org/

The following website also has some good material:
http://paleodiet.com/

There are a few schools of thought: one is pure paleo which assumes that we should match our diet to that of the diet our ancestors followed when our bodies evolved into what they are today.
Another sees food processing technologies like soaking and sprouting grains, or fermenting as useful tools used for centuries to make sure the food your eating isn't hurting you (through anutrients like phytic acid, or other toxins).

The links on the first blog will probably take you everywhere you need to answer most questions.

<BUMP>  No, I am not bumping an old thread, I'm just trying to bump it back to its origin...a food cache for a year.

The list is neither meant to be perfect, nor a one-size-fits-all.  Each of us has our dietary preferences and needs.  The list, I believe, was meant as a reminder, that we all need to look pessimistically towards the future, and plan accordingly.  There may be items that either you do not eat, nor can provide for your use.  Substitute accordingly.  While I cannot argue the benefits of any particular diet, I feel safe in saying that a wide variety of food stuffs is most beneficial to most people.

The bottom line of the scenario seems to be that there will be a one year period where if you do not have it, you will not get it.  How you preserve it is your choice, but I should point out that IF the time comes that you NEED a year's supply of food to survive, water may also be a precious commodity.  If that is the case, dehydrated foods will be of little value to you.

The human body needs carbs, proteins, and oils for long term health, and day to day energy to function efficiently (and your hens will need those as well if you expect them to keep producing eggs for you).

Re-read the list, and think.  What would you do differently?  Substitute?  Add?
He says "2 pounds of nuts":  I eat that many each month!
He says "Canned Hams...need refrigeration"  Most of the Danish canned hams will keep years with NO refrigeration...they may be a little saltier than you're used to, but they still taste good (just like the canned bacon).  Canned butter also keeps for years.  Also consider UHT milk which has a long shelf life with no reftigeration.

Think, look around, PLAN.

I would be so screwed. We eat mostly fresh foods all year round, totally veg and with the exception of eggs vegan. Mostly raw fruits and veggies, nuts and seeds, sprouts, some beans and occasional grains.

Was it meant to be a food cache?  I thought it was meant to be what would you grow, forage, or hunt for a year.  Shows my lack of reading comprehension!

Craftylittlemonkey, I would also be totally screwed.  I mostly have beans stockpiled, and I don't particularly like beans! 

Beans and cactus, mmmmmmm! 

I have a fair bit of food stored, but I've never quantified it or tried to figure out how long what I store would last.  As an estimate I would say for my husband and myself, it could be six months worth of food, give or take.  I store a lot of beans, rice, rolled grains, dried fruit, pasta, flour, sugar, and my own canned foods such as tomato sauce, jams, beets, various stocks and such.  I keep a lot of salt on hand in case we should ever need to cure the meat in the freezer due to loss of power, and some things such as powdered milk for emergencies.  We store our homegrown garlic, potatoes and squash over the winters too.  Right now a few things overwinter in the garden with no cover, and we have a couple of small cold frames.

In general though I'm more interested in extending my growing season and producing more food than in calculating how much we need to store in terms of purchased dry goods.  If it came down to feeding ourselves because we had to, I'd rather have a system in place that could extend our growing season for 6-8 weeks in either direction than a finite amount of stored food.  A small hoop house is on the agenda for this year.

Well fermentation is a great way to preserve things. It promotes living systems to preserve rather than dead, sterile systems like canning. I'm curious about exactly how this might improve mineral and vitamin availability - I know part of how this works in nature is through cycling them through different organisms - and I know that heat often destroys important nutrients.
www.wildfermentation.com

I disagree that the only things to think about are protein and fats, and that we need carbs at all (though they're a fine source of energy). The other nutrients involved are potentially MORE important.

Also, I think living food storage is a great things. Hunting and fishing, or even livestock and gardens are great stores - except where you might be worried about radiation (or don't have the space.)

Being that we are on a raw foods diet (eating living foods for a living body makes sense after all, eh?) permaculture provides all we need. And without much preparation or extra cooking oils, etc. Just gotta erect a tropical greenhouse to get our coconuts and avocados and things

Yuuuuum.

p.s. Has anyone read Anastasia? Her views on seeds and treatment of your garden is quite intriguing and I must say (though to some it sounds far-fetched) I plan to practice much of this. Spiritual permaculture!

http://www.anastasiasgarden.com/healinggardens/

Kate, right on with extending the growing season. That sounds totally excellent to me.
Supaiku, I do some fermenting but that stuff has to be stored in the fridge so it's not exactly non-perishable. Wish it was shelf stable, I would just ferment everything during the growing season and eat it all winter long. I LOVE fermented foods!
tyffdavi you're speaking my language for sure. Where are you guys? I would so love to find a community of people eating this way to join up with. I'm pretty tolerant of other people's diets and lifestyles but living with the like-minded can be really great.

That said, I've been watching some youtube videos about sealing up foods in mylar bags etc and thinking it's not such a bad idea. I have a large dehydrator, I can dry a lot of food in season, lots of wild crafted hand picked stuff too. I *could* store plenty of harder-to-get-in-the-winter items at least. Maybe a supplemental supply is what I should aim for considering our current diet. I dunno, I am not so alarmist that I think the food supply is going to tank completely. I am down with putting things by though, that's always a good thing.

craftylittlemonkey wrote:

Supaiku, I do some fermenting but that stuff has to be stored in the fridge so it's not exactly non-perishable. Wish it was shelf stable, I would just ferment everything during the growing season and eat it all winter long. I LOVE fermented foods!

It seems your right. Anyhow, a root cellar should be a good substitute for a fridge.
And if you add in salting, drying, canning etc it'd be a breeze to get all the food you need. After all - how did people survive pre-oil/refrigeration?
Of course, freezing is nice: in Mongolia they kill all the meat they need for the winter in the fall, dry portions, and freeze portions (in a box outside) and eat it until the milk products are ready in the spring/summer. But then, if you're not lucky enough to have that cold of temperatures, then you're probably lucky enough to be able to grow/graze better year around so... that's what puts the spice into cultures:)

How many people have gotten sick after eating bad produce that was grown, harvested, packaged, shipped and sold when the law was fully obeyed?  When you rely on illegals, who don’t care about hygiene, picking your food, you are bound to have problems eventually.

It wasn't "illegals" that contaminate the majority of contaminated food products in the last 20 years. Those were the results of industrialized farming methods, like contaminated irrigation water and overuse of antibiotics.  Neither of those issues have anything to do with the hygiene practices of illegal immigrants. They have everything to do with corporate managers cutting corners and maximizing profits at the expense of safety.

Actually, sad to say, industrialized farming does have something to do with the hygiene practices of workers, illegal or otherwise.  Their practices - not their preferences.

To whoever left the asinine comment that was rightly deleted:  You'd probably make someone sick too if you were forced to harvest food without access to a toilet or some way of washing your hands afterward.  That's exactly what industrial farming does, all in the name of the bottom line.  Walk a mile in someone else's shoes before you talk.

Right on. I live in Southern Ontario where tons of people from Mexico and the islands come each year to do the work we Canadians are apparently too good for. Thankfully their living conditions are monitored more and more closely each year to make sure they are not being made to work or live in unacceptable conditions. Still, they don't care about what you are eating, it's just their job. If you want things done to the very highest of standards you've got to do it yourself.

Kate@LivingTheFrugalLife wrote:
Actually, sad to say, industrialized farming does have something to do with the hygiene practices of workers, illegal or otherwise.   Their practices - not their preferences.

To whoever left the asinine comment that was rightly deleted:  You'd probably make someone sick too if you were forced to harvest food without access to a toilet or some way of washing your hands afterward.  That's exactly what industrial farming does, all in the name of the bottom line.  Walk a mile in someone else's shoes before you talk.

But the fact is that people are not getting sick from someone not washing their hands.  They are getting sick from contaminated irrigation water, antibiotic-resistant bacteria, etc.

Carbs are needed for long term health.  The "hollow" carbs (like sugars/alcohol) are not needed (they just make some foods more palatable), but one very important carb is fiber.

If you are eating a wide variety of foods, you should be getting all of the nutrients you need for survival and health.

I do not believe in the "Food Pyramid" created by USDA and FDA.  It was created by agencies whose primary function is to keep the grain farmers profitable!

John Polk wrote:
Carbs are needed for long term health. 

So people keep saying but nobody has shown any evidence yet.

John Polk wrote:
one very important carb is fiber.

I'm not totally sure fiber is a carb.    Fiber is non-digestible, whereas carbs are digestible.  Fiber is usually cellulose, whereas carbs are starches or sugars. 

Fiber just refers to any carbohydrate which is sufficiently complex so as to be indigestible (to humans).  It is carbohydrate by definition.  Basically the terms sugar, starch and carbohydrate all refer to the same thing.  The term "sugar" is conventionally used to refer to simple carbohydrates, the term "starch" to moderately complex carbohydrates, and the term "fiber" to refer to very complex carbohydrates.  In other words your body hardly has to do anything to access the energy in sugar; it must do some work to access the energy in "starch;" and it's incapable of doing the necessary work to access the energy in "fiber."  (Other animals are not so handicapped.)  At a molecular level, they're all just permutations of one another.

Thanks for the clarification.