organic lawn care for the cheap and lazy

i've been saving my leaves and grass clippings for 10yrs in a ravine behind my house.i put some on my garden(it really works good) but i saw on tv where they took compost and lidquidfied it and sprayed it on their lawns instead of commercial fertilizer.can you tell me how it's done and approx. cost. my cured compost pile is 3ft deep by8ft wide and15ft long. is that enough to get started?

Hi Steve

WOW that sounds like a lot of compost, with that much i would be thinking veg garden beds, ornamentals and fruit trees.
I'm not a big lover of lawns, had to mow a large uneven rocky one as a kid, never had one since except when renting, that being said back to your question
to spray the way you describe would mean milling the compost to a very fine powder so it could pass through a spray nozzle, this would possibly destroy any goodness in compost and certainly will not help the humus factor, and create excess work preparing it.

a good rule of thumb when applying compost is little but often

if your finished compost is in a crumbly state ( say like potting mix) you could broadcast it before watering or make a slurry as in my previous post

There are many good posts scattered throughout this forum if you need any other ideas for compost uses

Hope this is a help, i'm sure you'll get many other replies.

Bird

Aerated Compost Tea would be how to "spray" it on your lawn, and a compost roller, manure spreader, or your own shovel-flinging is how to put the actual compost material on your lawn...

I think I would sprinkle it as is.  No need for slurry or tea.  A half inch deep would be good.  Just make sure there aren't any big chunks that will mat and suffocate the grass.

1/2 inch will be good for a vigorous lawn, but if lawn is struggleing or sickly i would start with a lighter application to give it a kick start fist. The current condition has not been specified

Hi, Thanks for the great article! I'm a new homeowner in North Texas as of last summer, trying to get a handle on growing my lawn organically. I have a few shady areas where the current grass (mostly St. Augustine) doesn't want to grow. I noticed you recommended tall fescue for shade in a previous post, but some other sites suggest fescues might not do well in the kind of heat we get here. Is it worth a try anyway, or is there another grass you'd recommend for this climate? A friend suggested Zoysia, but I'd like to hear from an expert.

Thanks!

(Also, thanks for previous posts, in which you've talked me out of going out tomorrow to buy corn gluten meal!)

I'm pretty sure that tall fescue would not do well in texas.  You need a warm season grass.  I'm gonna hafta step aside and let others help you since I am not familiar enough with the warm season grasses to make a good suggestion.

paul wheaton wrote:
I'm pretty sure that tall fescue would not do well in texas.  You need a warm season grass.  I'm gonna hafta step aside and let others help you since I am not familiar enough with the warm season grasses to make a good suggestion.

I've heard good stuff about buffalograss in Texas, but I too have no experience with that climate...

Is Ringer fertilizer the best to use? How about Milorganite or Nutri-Rich Natural Lawn Fertilizer? How do those compare?  Thanks!

filipina wrote:
Is Ringer fertilizer the best to use? How about Milorganite or Nutri-Rich Natural Lawn Fertilizer? How do those compare?  Thanks!

Those will feed your lawn just fine, but it's the ingredients that people dicker over.  Some people are fine with Milwaukee's finest poop (Milorganite), others worry about what those people ate and excreted onto your lawn.  Read the label and see if you're ok with putting that those ingredients onto your lawn.

Ringer has known substances (primarily feather meal, I think - high protein) and isn't too pricey if it's available near you.  So good bang for the buck.  That's why lots of people recommend it.  Others have good ingredients too!

I wouldn't use the stuff with city sludge - but then, I'm a bit pickier than most.

Do you have a link for the other product?

Hello--Great article and at just the right time!  My husband and I just put in a new yard last fall (more topsoil, sprinklers, and kentucky bluegrass).  This spring it is coming up (slowly), but is getting overtaken by weeds (very rapidly)!  Mostly clover...all over.  We want to do an organic yard, but thought we needed to get it going first and knock out the weeds...tried a "weed and feed"--no success on the weeds.  Now my husband wants to go in and spray again, which I would love to AVOID.  Any suggestions?  We will definitely have the pH tested, but how do we get these weeds under control before they overtake the yard?  We have a dog and a 2 year old son, and the chemicals, of course, are trying to be avoided.  Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated---Thanks!!

How high are you mowing?  I have to ask because 95% of the time I get people that say "the weeds are taking over!" and I ask "how high are you mowing" and then they go to the article and come back and report "really high!" and then I go to their house with a ruler and find that they mowed at 1.5 inches.  I then say "I thought you said you were mowing high" and then they have this long winded series of malarky that makes no sense to justify why they mowed low "just this one time."  Only I'm thinking that their mower has never been set to anything higher than 1.5 inches. 

So!  First I want you to tell me how high you mow.  If you attached a pic of freshly mown lawn with a ruler in it, I would become ten times more enthusiastic. 

Next up - did you see the part of the lawn care article about clover? 

I think if you want to convince your husband to not spray, you should google for the name of the spray plus "MSDS" - this will give you a report of just how toxic that product is.  And that's the toxicity that has been measured.  There's all sorts of toxicity that has not been measured.  So the mission is to poison yourselves, your children, your pets and the birds, for the sake of something ornamental, which can look far better if you don't use the toxic gick. 

Just give the spot-making dog away!!    dog-gone, problem gone!!

I need help with figuring out watering in my area.

I am in  the Bay Area in a semi-urban neighborhood.  After years of seriously slow progress we're rid of our front lawns (corner property) and they are nicely replaced with natives.

We redesigned the backyard from a confusing patchwork of levels (some deck some lawn) 60% had concrete from parking pads underneath it, and now it's all one level.  We had someone put in the pretty small lawn we wanted for our kids and dogs with a "mow free sod". (From http://www.deltabluegrass.com/mowfree.html) it contains according to the website.

Mow Free
Sheeps Fescue
Hard Fescue
Chewings Fescue
Creeping Red Fescue


It didn't do so well the first couple of years because the guy who put it in did a lousy job with the sprinkler system, and I didn't do a great job maintaining it. (Did I mention I've got small kids?)I know he dug in compost and did a ton of prep work before he put it in but not how much, nor much else about my soil beyond that it's got a lot of clay.

We finally got the sprinklers fixed, and I've set myself the goal of trying to baby the lawn this year so it'll choke out the weeds, and go back to looking more like it did after I got it installed.  So I'm complete on board with "organic" "Lazy" (obviously) and "cheap". I mow high, grass cycle, and practice benign (i hope) neglect. I've never used herbicides of any kind or let anyone use it. I probably gave up chemical fertilizers a decade ago and never used them on the lawn anyway. I'm the type who'd rather read 15 articles about the wonders of permaculture and CSA, then actually go out and do actual gardening-though I am improving especially now that my kids will actually hang out with me and let me do as much as 5 or 10 minutes of gardening without interruption.

But here's my question, can a lawn get buy on 1"/month with NO SUMMER RAIN?

We're in a very temperate area, where summer evenings are always cool, and frost is a once a decade event. 80's during the day are considered heat wave territory, and the soil is clay, and I don't want to use a drop more of water than I should, but I'd really like to get this lawn well established so it looks good, holds up to having my kids run around on it, and is a great place to spread out a picnic lunch on a sunday.

Trying to wrap my head around a few things ....

There are grasses out there that never grow very tall.  They are advertised as how awesome they are because you never have to mow!  Of course, the weeds come and will quickly outcompete these grasses.  So if you hose your lawn down the broadleaf herbicides, then you have a toxic gick fest of a lawn that you don't have to mow.

Tall fescue will grow really tall unless you mow it!  Every time you mow, you also chop off the heads of any weeds that dared to grow so tall.  The grass likes it and most of the weeds hate it.  Further, the grass will then grow thicker. 

My impression is that the never mow stuff ends up too short and is soon infested with weeds. 

As for watering - yes,  if your soil is two feet deep, then I think you can get through the summer with no watering.

Paul,

Thanks for your quick reply.

This is a different approach to no-mow. Apparently it's really used places most people won't mow or don't want to mow-median strips, and hillsides and such. It's really more a meadow grass mix that you can mow if you want a traditional lawn look, or not mow if you like a meadow look.  My thought is that when my kids stop running around on it I'll convert it to a meadow and add some local wildflowers to the mix. If you want a better idea of what it looks like you'll have to go to the website.

I assume where you said "get through the summer with no watering" you meant get through the summer with only and inch a month without rainfall. Am I correct?

Also, forgive me as I suspect you've answered this one before, how do I tell if what I've got is soil to two feet?

I can guess that the answer starts with dig a hole two feet deep, and while I can tell the difference between rocks and dirt, I am not sure I can distinguish clay-ey soil, from well clay. Any pointers would be appreciated.

Dig a hole two feet deep and then upload a pic here (when you post, look for "additional options").

With good soil two feet deep, I think you could go 60 days without a drop of rain.

Paul,

Thanks for all your help so far. I finally go that hole dug. Broke a shovel handle doing it.  I will write the post and add the pics when I am finished.

I dug the whole near the edge of my lawn where it abuts a patio, that area has never done well, and I've always assumed that that's is where my dog likes to urinate and he's burned out the grass.  Is it better to put sawdust or compost in the hole when I fill it back up?  Have you had anybody have good luck with the chopstick cure?

I've got one more photo, and I want to know where I send the virtual home made thank you brownies.

I'm new to this and don't know if I'm "replying" to the right conversation.  My question is about moss and how to get rid of it... can I say "kill"?  It seems to be killing the grass throughout my backyard.  New to the scene, just bought the house and trying to be good about chem.  Any ideas? 

Lazy,

I think you have damn good soil.  Most folks would get about two inches and either encounter boulders/rocks/sand or clay that is so petrified that it is like one big rock under the whole neighborhood.  So the fact that you CAN dig a hole two feet deep shows that you actually have decent subsoil. 

a) you got a bunch of froo-froo grass that looks great if you water it a lot and hose it down with chemicals.  If you had the boring ole KBG, that would be of greater use.  Here you have this awesome deep soil and your grass doesn't take advantage of it.  The good news is that I think you could plant a few patches of tall fescue and it would quickly outcompete the other stuff in your lawn. 

b) filling the hole back:  I would use sticks and stuff from the yard.  Home made compost would be mighty dreamy, but I would prefer to use home made compost on edibles rather than an ornamental like grass.  And I wouldn't buy "compost". 

nateflower wrote:
I'm new to this and don't know if I'm "replying" to the right conversation.  My question is about moss and how to get rid of it... can I say "kill"?  It seems to be killing the grass throughout my backyard.  New to the scene, just bought the house and trying to be good about chem.  Any ideas? 

Moss is usually an indicator that your soil is too acidic.

I would

a) get a soil test

b) lay down a little lime - but not too much

c) put down some ringers fertilizer. 

KBG is a piggy feeder (needing 8 lbs. per 1000 sq. ft., although some of the new cultivars are down to 4 lbs.), needing more H2O than a lot of other choices, especially the fescues, and it's not native (despite the name), unlike fine or hard, or red fescues, which need about 2 lbs.per k, half the H2O, and are natives of much of our continent. The new tall turf type fescues also offer another better solution than KBG, especially if minimal inputs is the Holy Grail...

I updated the lawn care article to include this pic:



And the text "Check out this pic. Someone started to mow and then I convinced them, as an experiment, to set their mower higher. This pic was taken about six days later as summer is setting in. Can you see the difference?"

What? Are we hard of seeing? 

S

I had a new lawn put down(loam & hyrdoseed) Mid sept of 2009, and the seedlings went dormant early/mid Oct due to colder temps I think.  The lawn looked like 1-1.5" fuzz.  In spring, I figured that it needed a jump start since other lawns were starting to grow and green fast, so I put down a 14k sq/ft bag of Scotts starter fertilizer (20-27-5) on 4/22/10 and saw some greening going on and fair growth over the next 5 weeks.  By the end of May, my grass was still a lighter/brighter green like it wasn't healthy or had enough nutrients, so I put down a 15k sq/ft bag of Scotts all season fertilizer (32-0-4) so I could get the leafs to grow bigger/thicker to start thickening the lawn and eventually suffocate the weeds.  I've only mowed twice so far this year and both times on next to highest wheel setting on my honda self propelled mower so the leaves could soak up the sun.  I have to mow this weekend or it will get too messing with clumping in areas.  I guess I'm looking for a bit of advice with how I should proceed this summer, Latesummer/early fall, and Late fall?  Also, I've come across two liquid organic lawn fertilizers (Fire Belly, Mega Green) that I've read great things about, and was wondering if anyone had anything to say about those products and use as a alternative to spreading compost or "Ringer" type organic fertilizer?  Currently i have short weeds, red/white clover and no crab grass...I don't mind the clover as long as it doesn't take over.  My grass mixture is creeping red and other fescues, perrenial rye, and KBG.  On a side note, I have approx 5k sq/ft of land (flat/sloped) on the skirts of my property that I designated as meadow/wildflower only so I don't have to mow.
Thanks,
Erik

I have used the Mega Green and found it very functional; the mint oil really suppresses the fish smell nicely...

I have met Tom but have not tried the Firebelly products so can't really say there; I've heard some good things...

Stop it with the chem ferts; you are killing fungal mass and feeding bacteria; a perfect recipe for weeds (early sucession soils are highly bacterial; grass likes nearly even balance). Mow high enough, add some nitrogen, and clover isn't an issue, although I faill to see the problem myself.

My friend Sandy who sells for Hart Seed showed me their lawn mixes from the turn of the century; their regular had 5% dutch clover, their better mix had 10%, and their premium lawn mix was 25% clover seed... because THAT was how you fertilized lawns.

Man, have we gotten anal retentive... 

S

I see the white clover all over the yard right now because I haven't mowed in 2-3 weeks, and I think the other clover leaf looking plants about 3-6" tall are the red clover (that's my hunch), but I see other plants that have carrot or parsley type leaves and others that look like smaller/rounder tipped Wild Lupine, but obviously are not.  These weeds are spaced out pretty evenly all across the lawn and growing just slightly faster than the grass at this point, but I have no idea what they are.  I'm hoping in the next month I'll begin to choke alot of it out except the clover.

I am full out planning on putting the kiebosh on the Chemical fertilizer and going the organic route for next year since I didn't want to jump into organic without learning about it first.  If I were to spray some of that Mega Green down in a few more weeks to allow for the Scotts to get digested/diluted would that help me with the soil and health of the lawn over the summer and leading into the Fall?  If yes, what would be a good plan for early or late fall?  I would think that I would want to make the roots grow more and get stronger and deeper for when the lawn goes dormant in Oct/November time frame.  Any thoughts.   My lawn is about 15k sq/ft so spreading out compost isn't something I want to be doing unless it can be done quickly and efficiently.   Thanks Erik

Someone with a bark or mulch blower can do it quickly and efficiently, but not cheaply. It's pretty expensive. I have yet to find a push spreader up to the task, so dumping piles and spreading them is still the usual route for homeowners. DOesn't need to happen at once...

15000 sq. ft.? Raising livestock? Coaching a soccer team? Landing helicopters?

Why so much lawn? It's not useful or productive, nor particularly aesthetic.

We need to ask ourselves intrinsic questions about why we want lawn (despite the overuse of the phrase, we do not "need" lawn). And when we really do not have good answers for why, it is time to consider reduction. Play space for kids or animals, cool. A place to lay out or play croquet or volleyball, seen. As segue between different gardens or pathways, stellar. Certain spaces cry out for the use of turf; I get that. All things in moderation.

As placeholders to stave off natural succession because we can't be bothered to think of more constructive ways to use the space? We need to do better... native gardens take less maintenance and are far more valuable to local biota. Even a perennial border offers pollinators mast food sourcing. Trees and shrubs are where Nauture wants to move towards, yet we thwart her goals with wide open swaths of monocultural monocots.

ANY lawn care, organic or not, is still more intensive than gardening in a like manner. Paul is correct that time invested in lawn takes away from REALLY useful gardening, yet for most Americans, it is what stands in for their landcare. 

HG

We live in a very hilly part of Southwestern NH..our house sits near the bottom of a steep ridge and the usable yard was small and domed.  We also had very tall beech/birch/maple on woodline that presented a clear and present danger to falling on the house as well as water constantly cominig into the yard and basement.  We pushed back the woodline and created a water drainage trough on the slopes and haven't had any problems since, but the dirt that was moved to make the trough was used in our domed front yard to make a flatter front yard.  If not for doing this extra site work..a few months later, our house would've been destroyed by all the trees that fell in the "Ice Storm" of 2008.  I now have approximately 5 yrs worth of wood to heat my house and I've used a lot of the wood chippings from that storm to lay down in place of bark mulch where the front yard ends and slopes steeply down to prevent erosion.  I didn't do this work to have a great big lawn, that wasn't my goal, but now I have a 17m old son who needed some room to play on. The back half of my cleared property is designated wildflower/wildlife meadows (its a slopy area not at all ideal for any type of lawn).  I want to see bees, deer, turkey and maybe a few rabbit paying a visit every now and again, and be able to enjoy a nice flowery meadow area.  I've planted wildflower and wildlife attractant plants to do this so my family can enjoy it for years to come.  I'm looking to plant a lot of spruce trees in other parts of my property to create cover for other wildlife (rabbit/deer) and be able to have a nice christmas tree when they are big enough.  I love the outdoors and want my son to learn about and cherish this gift the same as I do.   Maybe the lawn is big, but I don't think its too much, considering I still have 4.5 -5 acres of untouched woods to the Northside of my house. (google maps: 42.817661,-71.730386)

Hey, meadow AIN'T lawn, LW... I am the very first to sing the praise of tall grass (MUCH higher root desities allow for more carbon sequestration in tall grass than in the same acreage of tallwood, the biodiversity is much higher, species supported goes right off the chart, LOTS of good stuff...) if you are talking about letting things get back to tall grass as lawn, you couldn't be more mistaken; it's WAY beyond that... mow a few paths for human intrusion here and there and I think you have one of the most intense natural interfaces for humans there is; akin to snorkeling on a coral reef...

I think we see lawn as a buffer from Nature; our human instinct towards short grass is born of our days when tall grass concealed certain death. It is a meme that has become a wee bit dated. If you really wish to get little LW immersed in the wonders of Nature, letting it come a little closer is a great first step...

Hi Scott,  I'm not at home so I don't have another picture to show the other side of the house, but this picture shows the steep slopes and the upper flatter sections of the slopes that I have designated as wildflower/tall grass/wildlife area (Taken 2 years ago). Once that takes off, I'll put in a small walk path as you suggested.  The rest of my yard which you can't see, which is either flat or slightly sloped has been designated for organic lawn turf, not tall grasses. I don't have a lot of access to soccer/baseball fields or some other recreational things you would want for a family/child nearby.  So the lawn turf area is bigger for that reason so we can do some of these activities at home and enjoy nature doing its thing at the same time.  Doing what I can to keep things manageable and more natural.

I put down some scotts turf builder (32-0-4) approximately 3 weeks ago on my lawn and I'm wondering how long I should wait before I can safely start switching over to organic fertilizer?  I'm planning on using a hose sprayer to apply some Mega-Green organic for the first application and then in late summer/early fall apply some of Blue Seals "Safe N Simple Lawn food".

Hi, Im new to organic lawn and i would like some advice how to get rid of weed like this. See pictures pls.Thanks in advance!

We are about to hit a hot dry spell, any new advice for lawn care in hot weather?

Dianne Keast wrote:
We are about to hit a hot dry spell, any new advice for lawn care in hot weather?

I'd like to second this.  I live just outside of Atlanta, GA its getting hot and dry here too.

Your article talks about how having great deep soil will allow the lawn to better endure hot and dry weather summer can bring, by watering deeply and infrequently.  However it also mentions that deep watering should only be used in conjunction with deep soil.  Any tips for folks who don't have good soil or are in the process of improving the soil.

Puffin wrote:
Your article talks about how having great deep soil will allow the lawn to better endure hot and dry weather summer can bring, by watering deeply and infrequently.  However it also mentions that deep watering should only be used in conjunction with deep soil.  Any tips for folks who don't have good soil or are in the process of improving the soil.

Water as deep as your dirt/soil will allow without runoff.  Sometimes breaking the deep watering into two waterings spaced 10 minutes apart will help with getting it deep without runoff, and will still be "deep and infrequent"

lokewolf wrote:
I put down some scotts turf builder (32-0-4) approximately 3 weeks ago on my lawn and I'm wondering how long I should wait before I can safely start switching over to organic fertilizer?  I'm planning on using a hose sprayer to apply some Mega-Green organic for the first application and then in late summer/early fall apply some of Blue Seals "Safe N Simple Lawn food".

You can safely add organic anytime*.  Plus, by the time the organic starts "organifying" it will be another couple of weeks.

*-Most people don't fertilize in the summer (for cool season grasses), as the grass would do better going dormant and you end up fertilizing the weeds.  But you _can_ put it out there, it won't burn.  And with the lack of rain (and if you don't water), it will likely just sit there anyway until the Fall, and now you've pre-spread your Fall fertilizer (assuming it stays in place!)

tomiusa wrote: i would like some advice how to get rid of weed like this.

The big problem with it seems to be that it is trying to propagate by sending runners out above-ground.

Looser soil would give it the option of spreading below-ground, and it would look a lot more like the rest of the turf grass. At that point, it would be a slow process of letting the better grass out-compete it.

I think the general program Paul outlines in the article would work for what you've shown, just like any other weed: mow high, mow often, water seldom, water deep, maybe add compost or organic fertilizer at times of year when the (desired species of) grass tends to grow the most.