organic lawn care for the cheap and lazy

paul wheaton wrote:
Okay - let's suppose you want to introduce tall fescue into a healthy turf.  It will take almost 14 days to germinate.  During that time, you must keep the see moist.  And you will need to mow your grass low, so that the seedlings can get light.  And then the seedlings will still need to compete with the existing turf to get a start.  Then, your new species will need to outcompete the old species.  While all of these things are possible to manage, it just seems like an uphill battle.

It may not be too steep a battle if the existing turf hasn't quite gotten to the "healthy" state, not yet thick and lush, but the soil has just recently been souped up with some compost.  Maybe I'm not picturing it right though... will the compost need to be slathered on really thick in order to be effective?  I was just thinking I'd be patching the few bare places, and spreading a loose layer over the existing scraggly areas (in the aeration-holes) and overseeding there to bring fresh blood into the area.  I could probably just let the existing turf thicken up, which would be cheap and easy, but I can't help but think that if I can encourage seedlings to establish themselves they'd take up space before weed seeds sneak in (so maybe the battle will be shorter?)  I'm also thinking that blending the existing grass with stuff that I know is shade-tolerant, a known variety that may grow stronger than the existing turf, might make the lawn more successful.

I guess it's tough to combine quick with cheap and easy, and the whole concept of overseeding is tempting because it seems like it could help get results quick, even though it comes at the expense of both the cheap and the easy.

I do see your point though, overseeding a healthy lawn is pointless, and I'm actually kinda amused about how the seed companies are pushing the idea that overseeding can help make sure a lawn stays thick and lush -- I'm also embarrassed because I fell for it!  Haven't tried it yet, but I was definitely thinking that I would have to budget some seeds into every fall maintenance season!  Good thing you've set me stratight!

I had the PH tested in April and it was 6.0. I sent it off to state to be tested. We have to get about 10 samples from differnet spots in the yard then mix them all together. Yard, is big at 20,000. So, with a PH of 6.0 I guess lime is not needed? This area really has some clay in it. Like I said earlier the grass has no growth at all, even after some rain. I put some Ringer on a small area, just to see if that would help. My front yard where I put some Ringer down is looking better, and it has been about 2 weeks since I put it down. It is like night and day between the front and side yard. Thanks. 

>will the compost need to be slathered on really thick in order to be effective?

The more you add, the better.  A little will help a little.  A lot will help a lot.  More than an inch can smother existing grass.

>and spreading a loose layer over the existing scraggly areas

Sounds good.  Lay it on thicker for the dead patches.

>I do see your point though, overseeding a healthy lawn is pointless, and I'm actually
>kinda amused about how the seed companies are pushing the idea

Whew!  Progress! 

A pH of 6.0 is "good enough" in my book. 

You could get a little lime and do a similar experiment like you tried with the fertilizer.

How's your worm count?

Worm account appears to really low.

leaving the clippings should help a lot with the worm count.

I'm learning all about milky spore and BT and neem oil and other things that people seem to touch on --

this site seems to know a lot about organic lawn care -

www.dirtworks.net

If you can't find it locally, dirtworks sells neem, BT, Diatomaceous Earth, and eaorganic lawn fertlizer through the mail, and all that other good stuff too.

I have about a quarter acre and about half of my backyard contained a ground cover of violet, some sort of creeping weed with small purple flowers, Queen Anne's Lace, and a couple of other ground covers that I don't know. The ground cover was also under some very tall pine trees.

I've decided to extend my lawn, so I just finished cutting down all of the ground cover with my lawn mower (about 4 inches in height). What would be the cheapest and laziest way of extending my lawn? Should I rototill it and plant seed or sod? Should I just throw seed in with the stumps of the ground cover and keep mowing high?

Thanks!

If there is at least 40% grass out there, mow more frequently and fertilize. 

One fun option could be to till and over plant field peas.  They will grow up and smother whatever is on the ground.  Then, next spring, you will have rich, weed free dirt that you can plant with your favorite grass seed.

Hi - I have no questions ask or advice to handout here.

I just wanted to say - great site!  I only recently found this and I'm impressed with the wealth of knowledge.

To everyone with the great advice - Keep up the good work - hopefully some of us newbies will be able to follow suit in the future.

robn

Excellent site - I wish I had come across it before buying my gardenia manual lawn mower a few years ago which has a max of 45mm (~1.7 in. ).  Quite frankly, I love the look of some neighbours lawns which are mowed about once a year and have lots of beautiful pink clover and wild snapdragons growing in them. If it were up to me I'd go that route too ... Anyways, since I have this mower (unless my neighbour's can mow higher, and he'll go for it ...), I think I'll try putting in the type of violets my Father in Law has in his lawn which he cuts low. My wife and I think that their foliage looks just as nice as grass and it gets very nice little purple flowers as a bonus. 

I loved reading your site and will be instituting the cut high method ASAP.

We bought our house 2.5 years ago and sod was promptly laid down. unfornately with water restrictions and pure laziness, we didnt water it correctly.

Our issue now is that the grass roots are extremely shallow and while the grass we do have is very healthy, its pretty bare in spots due to a grub infestation I recently battled and won (go nematodes!).

So, I have a long summer of manual weeding to go and was wondering...should we ignore the thatch, get rid of the awful thistles and just leave the fertilizing and such til next year or should we attempt to fertilize in the fall?

We will just outside of Chicago and of course get lots of frost and snow.

Thanks so much for a fantastic site and wealth of information

The violets I'd like to introduce to my lawn are close to "sweet violets" (Viola odorata) and do indeed smell very nice. The wild snapdragons are also very tolerant of being mowed (at least at the frequency our common area is mowed at) and looks very attractive at low heights - much more so than at uncut height, surprisingly. Perhaps I'll try going with the violets + snapdragons + yarrow + clover + grub resistant grass such as the fescue recommended on this site & perennial ryegrass (can be better to have more than one type of grass for disease resistance etc.).  Maybe I'll leave the dandelions too, at least some of them - they don't bother me personally (but I share a yard with a neighbour who seems to be really into lawns ...). With such low cutting, the probability of the lawn being perceived as "wild" or "weedy" should be greatly reduced ... So, this is an alternative low maintenance approach to the one in the article, with perhaps somewhat more frequent mowing. Why the hell isn't shorter growing grass available? Absolutely ridiculous. Maybe one day I'll be motivated enough to develop it (have a background in genetics etc.).

psh wrote:
Excellent site - I wish I had come across it before buying my gardenia manual lawn mower a few years ago which has a max of 45mm (~1.7 in. ).  Quite frankly, I love the look of some neighbours lawns which are mowed about once a year and have lots of beautiful pink clover and wild snapdragons growing in them. If it were up to me I'd go that route too ... Anyways, since I have this mower (unless my neighbour's can mow higher, and he'll go for it ...), I think I'll try putting in the type of violets my Father in Law has in his lawn which he cuts low. My wife and I think that their foliage looks just as nice as grass and it gets very nice little purple flowers as a bonus. 

Post some pictures!

Sorry, I don't have a digital camera, but here are some links:
http://altnature.com/gallery/violet.htm (In my Father-in-Law's case, the shade is closer to the 1st pic, but not quite so dark for the foliage (but the flower shade is pretty close -different colours are available, however)).
http://www.cambridge2000.com/gallery/html/P3044926.html (Overexposed, but shows th e shape pretty well. In the FIL's lawn, they are interspersed amongst the grass. This is in a cold climate (as cold as -35C in the winter) and they've survived for over 10 years (including surviving all manner of toxic chemicals, including banned ones, but that's another story), spreading slowly
The best pic I could find of wild snapdragons - picture it only a few inches tall with 1-3 flowers per plant (the kind of flowers around here are all yellow): http://www.angelfire.com/journal/turtles/butter_and_eggs.JPEG
I've seen plantain listed as a broadleaf to use within a lawn, but I find the typical species quite ugly, but how about this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Ribwort_600.jpg
And even better (don't know where you'd get it though):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Plantago_coronopus0.jpg - grass-like plantain!!!
Another option, perhaps for the entire lawn, is a low growing thyme, like the following:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thymus_serpyllum -a close up, hard to find a good pic of it.

Hello! Wonderful site. I've been mowing high, but watering too much. I also leave the dog stuff on and it seems to magically disappear!

Note about female dog urine - my sister's dog was burning the lawn until she started sprinkling Cream of Tartar on her dog food. It seems to work great - do you see any harm in it?

I really don't have any money to spend on this lawn - it's a rental, but I do want to do my best by it. That said, I'd rather not wait 3 years for the clumps in the back yard to work their way out so that we can play some croquet. Any advice?

Thanks again for all of this wonderful information!

Jan

Lots of good information on that site. I use all the cultural methods described. The only problem I have is with the use of Ringer.  While it looks to be organic, it contains nitrate of soda that is not approved with organic lawn care practices.

A much better choice, and much cheaper is the use of protein meals. Alfalfa meal, soybean meal, feather meal, corn meal, and Corn Gluten Meal which is also an organic herbicide with about 10% nitrogen content.  CGM is not alway easy to find or cheap, but it can be purchased cheaply.

Gerry Miller

JanJan wrote:
Hello! Wonderful site. I've been mowing high, but watering too much. I also leave the dog stuff on and it seems to magically disappear!

Note about female dog urine - my sister's dog was burning the lawn until she started sprinkling Cream of Tartar on her dog food. It seems to work great - do you see any harm in it?

I really don't have any money to spend on this lawn - it's a rental, but I do want to do my best by it. That said, I'd rather not wait 3 years for the clumps in the back yard to work their way out so that we can play some croquet. Any advice?

Thanks again for all of this wonderful information!

Jan

It sounds like you have some excellent soil! 

The reason you have clumps is because of the dissolved land mines.  They are feeding the soil in that spot.  But the rest of the soil is not as fertile.  A little lawn fertilizer in the non-clumped spots should even things out!

Gerry Miller wrote:
Lots of good information on that site. I use all the cultural methods described. The only problem I have is with the use of Ringer.  While it looks to be organic, it contains nitrate of soda that is not approved with organic lawn care practices.

A much better choice, and much cheaper is the use of protein meals. Alfalfa meal, soybean meal, feather meal, corn meal, and Corn Gluten Meal which is also an organic herbicide with about 10% nitrogen content.  CGM is not alway easy to find or cheap, but it can be purchased cheaply.

Gerry Miller

Never knew that about the soda. 

I think that if you are going to try alternatives, get feather meal - the primary ingredient in Ringer.

Feather meal is good, but takes a long time to break down. I actually use it for my fall applications. Actually, it's best to various protein meals to add to the variety of the soil organisms. The more diversity, the healthier the soil foodweb.

Gerry Miller

Hello Paul, I just finised reading through most everything in this thread and doing side searches on the various products discussed.  I live in Lancaster County, in SE Pennsylvania - not sure of the zone.  I have been cutting my grass very low (SLAP SLAP) and that's probably a big piece of why my yard is about 1/4 dead this Sept. and 1/4 weeds.  I will begin high mowing immediately. 

1)I'm thinking I need to put down some fertilizer but can't seem to get a read on the best course of action - several products have been mentioned.  What's your take on this? 
2) Also, I'm going to need to seed several large patches of dead grass that developed/are developing around the yard.  I've been advised to "slice seed" the whole yard in 2 directions to get things uniform again.  Big $ though.  Should I just rough up the dead regions and spot seed, or rent a slice seeder and do the whole 6,500 sf at one time?

Thanks for your input,
Jeff Geoghan

1)  Just get the ringer.  It's easy to find, cheap, and I'm worried that if I suggest anything else off the top of my head it will be too expensive or too hard to find.  I'll research the soda angle a bit more eventually. 

2)  If it were me, I would rake enough to rough up the soil a bit and then hand toss seed out there.  Then I would rake it in very lightly, then gently water.  Gerry has made some good points about using a roller, and I've added some stuff about throwing out a wee bit of loose straw - while these things do help, it probably isn't worth it for most folks.

I would suggest you find your local feed store and purchase Soybean Meal, which you can purchase 50 lbs for like $9.00  Cheaper than ringer and will work as good. Or even Alfalfa meal that you can buy for $7.00 for 50 lbs. In fact, with overseeding, alfalfa may be a better choice as it contains growth hormones that help develop your grass roots.

Nitrate of Soda is not an approved substance with organic practices.

Soybean meal and alfalfa meal can be found at feed stores - probably not at hardware stores and the like in the city.  And I have some concerns about each.

The soybean meal stands a good chance of being a GMO.  That gives me the willies.  Plus, this is the first time I've heard of it being used as a fertilizer, so I'm both interested and wary.  I suspect that Gerry has a lot of knowledge down this road that I don't have ----  of the top of my head, damn near any protein source should be good as a fertilizer.  Especially for grass.

Alfalfa is great stuff.  Because it is a broadleaf plant, it is rarely treated with any pesticides.  I like to use bales of alfalfa for mulching trees and my garden.  And I have used alfalfa meal for a few things several times in the past - and this year too!  But never for the lawn.  Alfalfa meal has a property kinda like peat moss:  once it has been on the ground a while and then dries, it tends to repel water.  Plus, I think that alfalfa meal dumps it's N really fast - and that can burn your grass! 

I think I would rather use alfalfa meal than the soybean meal.  And, in general, I think I would rather use the ringer than the alfalfa.  But .....  I suppose that if I had a patch of dirt that was almost like cement, I think I would prefer a little alfalfa meal over ringer:  faster nitrogen hit and more organic matter.

Ah yeah, the ringer might be something like 12% N.  I'm gonna guess that the alfalfa meal would be something like 2% or 3% N.  So the price per N might be the same.  The alfalfa meal would provide more organic matter, but too much could introduce some problems.

Thanks for the info.  My wife and I have made the decision to go organic for over a year in our gardening, with good results.  We have now decided to expand that to the lawn, which is a bit scary because we live on a street where everyone's lawn looks good and there is some (male) pressure to bring my lawn up to snuff...but I'll forge ahead.

I think I'll go with the Ringer, regardless of the nitrate issue, for this rehab project.  HD and Lowes do not carry it here, I've discovered.  Will have to check the farm stores - Lancaster is farm country so I'm hopeful.

My front yard has developed a few large patches of Yellow Nutsedge, which we've been pulling out by the hundreds this week in anticipation of seeding.

1) Do you have any thoughts on the nutsedge removal?
2) You didn't mention the slice seed option in your first post - did you mean to say that you would rough up and hand-seed the entire lawn?

Thanks for your advice, I'm in new waters without my chemicals...

Paul;

With the use of protein meals, they all break down slowly, usually 3 weeks, and no chance of burning plants.  The only except to that would be feather meal as that takes months for that to be broken down by soil organisms. Doesn't do you any good if you grass needs to be fed now or if you are going to overseed.  You have more of a chance to burn your plants with ringer than you do with using protein meals directly since there is no nitrate of soda added to the meals.  I like alfalfa meal rather than alfalfa pellets as it's easier to apply with my broadcast spreader.  With any meal, you need to activate it by watering it down after you apply it. This way, you won't have any problems with it repelling water. In fact, I've been using alfalfa meal for over 5 years and that has never happened. I guess it could if you put down too much and smothered the lawn. But at 20 lbs per 1000 sq ft, that's not going to be a problem.

The amount of crude protein in each meal will indicate what the N value would be, however with organic practices, we really aren't concerned with NPK values, but rather to feed the soil organisms, which in turn feed our plants.

As far as GMO's go, the jury is still out on that one. Most of the soy and corn we grow and eat in this country is GMO seed.  Besides, we are talking about feeding your soil organisms, and they need protein to be healthy. 

As far as your weed problem, start mowing your lawn at the highest setting. If you have a lot of weeds, then you may want to mow more often as this will cut off the growing point of the weed, where it is most sensitive.

However, if you are going to overseed, you'll want to just about scalp your lawn and then overseed. Rent a lawn roller to provide intimate contact between your grass seed and the soil. This would be a good time to apply alfalfa meal.  It will normally take about 3 weeks for the protein meals to break down and be available for your need grass seedlings. They don't need to be feed until after they germinate. With KBG, it takes 3 weeks for that seed to germinate on average.

In the spring, put down Corn Gluten Meal at 20 lbs per 1000 sq ft to help fight new weed seeds from germinating.

Gerry Miller

Jeff- Welcome to the world of chemical free lawns. I have been following Paul Wheaton's advice and have been having great luck. Chemicals are quicker but not as effective for a healthy lawn. My lawn has steadily become greener and more lush looking just from the fertilizer ,infrequent watering (1 inch per week ), and mowing high. Be patient and soon your neighbors will be asking you how you did it. Maybe you will recruit more organic members. Keep the faith ! 

Hi All,

I live in New London County, CT ... and I can't find the "extension" office number.  If anyone knows it, thanks in advance.

Also, a quick question about "too much nitrogen" in a lawn:  it's the excuse my new lawn mowing guy is giving me to justify the uneven job he's been doing this spring & summer.  None of the other lawn mowing people I used in the past complained about it.  In addition, he's been the one doing the fertilizing this past spring, so ... well of course I know nothing about lawn care, so my question is if there was too much nitrogen put in my lawn in the fall of 2005, would it affect the Spring & Summer 2006 growth pattern?

Thanks in advance for enligthening me!

If you are using organic fertilizer, like protein meals, you are actually feeding the soil organisms, not your grass plants. Then once the micro herd is fed, it in turn feeds your grass plants, turn around time is about 2-3 weeks on average.

One of the many advantages of using an organic practice is that you can feed your soil biology any time of year without any damage to your soil or grass. No worries. This applies to protein meals. The soil biology should be fed from early spring, thru summer and more often in the fall. Blood meal, while being organic, is fast release and can burn up your soil. It should never be used on your lawn, in my opinion.

If you use synthetic fertilizers, then you shouldn't fertilize in the early spring or during summer. It actually weakens the grass and invites disease and insect problems.  Synthetic fertilizers by passes the soil organisms and works directly on plants roots. Turns your lawn into a chemical junkie.

Grass is a nitrogen pig.  But if you apply protein meals early spring, late spring, summer and 2 times in the fall, your grass will respond very nicely.

If you only want to fertilize once a year, it should be done in the fall as this is the most important time to fertilize.

Proper mowing and watering are actually more important than using fertilizer. Those two cultural things should be employed first for best results.

Gerry Miller

Jeff,

1)  I've never heard of nutsedge!  Hopefully someone else here can help you with that one!

2)  Yes!  I've seeded an acre this way.  Easy.  Cheap.  Quick. 

I did a google for "New London County" "extension office" and the first link was http://www.canr.uconn.edu/ces/offices.html

Does this help?

As for the lopsided mow:  Yes!  If you take one part of your lawn and treat it great and ignore another part, then treat both parts the same a year later, the part that was treated well the previous year will be much better!

Paul Jenny - thanks for the welcome - I admit to being intimdated but will give it a go!

Paul Wheaton - here is Yellow Nutsedge:
http://ohioline.osu.edu/hyg-fact/4000/4010.html
Apparently it's very hard to get rid of.  I've been pulling it out and have gotten about halfway through the mess, but I suspect the roots I missed will return once I seed and water the area.  Of course it's right in my front yard by the driveway.  I hate to think about it but roundup may still be a need.

I found Alfalfa Meal for 20 cents per pound at an area feed mill.  I also stopped at Agway and found that they have a Ringer knockoff which is an organic 8-2-4.  Also, they had Milorganite 6-2-0 and something called Espoma Organic Lawn Food 18-8-6.  I bought the Espoma because of the higher Nitrogen (supposedly from organic sources).

My plan is to
1) Mow the lawn extremely low.
2) Rough up as much as much of the 6500 sk as possible using a trusty metal rake and dethatching rake.
3) Lay down the Alfalfa Meal using an Earthway spreader my neighbor has.
4) Hand seed the entire area or use the Earthway (lazy)
5) Spread the 18-8-6 fertilizer to get the quick N fix for the existing grass.
6) Water (if it doesn't rain)

How does this sound?

Oh, I forgot the seed issue:

After researching on lots of sites I came to the conclusion that I would go with a mix, predominantly perennial ryegrass.  I bought 20 lbs of Agways Fall Seed Mix which is approx. 75% perennial ryegrass of 3 different varieties, and 25% KB.

Jeff;

Unfortunately, Espoma fertilizer is not organic, regardless of what they state. With an organic practice, you are not concerned with NPK numbers. That's for synthetic chemical fertilizer users. You should be concerned with feeding the soil biology, the soil foodweb. They need protein to be happy and healthy.

Gerry Miller

First, I would advise that you don't fertilize until after your first mow.  Germinating seeds and seedlings don't care much for fertilizer. 

Second - it is quite possible to fertilize too much! 

Well that depends on what you are using to fertilize. If you use alfalfa meal or soybean meal, it's perfectly safe to apply at the same time you seed. At 20 lbs per 1000 sq ft there is no chance of burning or hurting your soil organisms or seedlings whatsoever. Remember it takes between 14 to 21 days for the soil organisms to break down these meals to then be available to your grass. With KBG, it takes 21 days, on average, for germination. They work together quite well.

The only way you can fertilize too much with protein meals is to smother the grass, period. You can't put down too much. That's one of the advantages of using protein meals.

The grass seed is self contained as it doesn't require any nutrition until it germinates. After that point, any protein meals you apply will help provide the soil organisms what they need.  Alfalfa meal, as I have stated before, has a growth hormone that will help develop the root system for your new grass seedlings.

Another consideration, if you don't want to be too cheap, especially with all the work involved with preparing your soil for overseeding, is to treat your grass seed with MycoGrow Micronized Endo/Ecto Seed Mix. It's cheap to use and will make a world of difference on your new grass success. Check out their web site:
http://www.fungi.com/mycogrow/index.html

Gerry Miller

(I gotta run, but just wanna add a quick note ...)

I'm gonna say I disagree with: 

[li]"perfectly safe"[/li]
[li]"no chance of burning or hurting your soil organisms or seedlings whatsoever" (the seedlings would be my concern)[/li]
[li]"The only way you can fertilize too much with protein meals is to smother the grass, period" (I think that wet alfalfa meal can burn seedlings)[/li]
[li]"doesn't require any nutrition until it germinates" (a little later than that - typically the true leaf state which is a bit weird with a monocot like grass - but this issue really depends on the soil that the seed is in)[/li]
[li]"Check out their web site" (the fungi perfecti folks are indeed the gods of the fungal world and I have bought lots of stuff from them in the past.  But this would be some healthy expense for a lawn IMO)[/li]

I hope that Gerry and I hashing over some of the finer points of organic lawn care does not dissuade folks from going organic.  I think that if you read between the lines, you will see that on the big things, Gerry and I completely agree.

Oh no doubt, going organic is the only way to manage your lawn. As Paul said, we have different views on certain things, but being organic is the way to go.

I must add though, I have over 5 years of experience with using alfalfa meal and I know literally hundreds of people who use it exclusively when overseeding and reseeding with no ill effects. This point I am certain on. You cannot burn seedling with organic protein meals. They are very slow release and feed the soil organisms over a period weeks and will not burn.  In fact when I apply these protein meals, it turns out I apply around 26 lbs per 1000 sq ft as I apply one 50 lb bag to cover one side of my yard which is 1800 sq ft. and 50 lbs to the other side of my lawn which is also 1800 sq ft with a drive way running up the middle. And using that amount, I have never hurt anything in my lawn. Protein meals don't work that way.  Very slow release.

However, when you put down 26 lbs per 1000 sq ft of soybean meal, you will have a distinct smell for a few days  that is unpleasant to some. But I love the smell of alfalfa. It has a very healthy smell to it.

Gerry Miller

Here is an interesting point to consider:

Alfalfa meal is ground up alfalfa which has a pretty good N count.  Just a little higher than ....  grass! 

Tossing alfalfa meal out on your lawn would be a lot like mowing your lawn and leaving the clippings.    So it's as if you got more clippings dumped on your lawn. 

First, I'd just like to say "great site!!!". I just found it and I think it's exactly what I've been looking for. I've wanted to switch to organic lawn care for some time now but cost stopped us from actually sticking to it. I had a hard time convincing my husband organic was the way to go, when each thing I tried seemed to fail.  However, now after reading through some of your site, I realize that I was going about the whole thing WRONG!
  So, we've just moved to SE Mass., and the lawn at the new house is a disaster, and I am a fish out of water as I have no idea what grows here or when (I'm from the south so this is a whole new adventure for me). I don't believe there is more than a blade or two of grass among all of the weeds. However I am determined to succeed this time, I've convinced my husband that if we plant the new yard correctly now it will save us money down the road.  So if anyone has time for a few suggestions, I would greatly appreciate it.
  Is it too late to get the seed in this fall as frost is comming?
    I've determined that bringing in topsoil is the way to go since the majority of what I have is sand. But do I have my soil tested first or bring in the topsoil and then have the combo tested?
    And is it better to just throw the new soil on top as is or should I till the existing first?
    I'm sure these are probably stupid questions (sorry) but I've gotten a lot of conflicting advice.
    Thank you for your time and all of the helpful information posted.