Common Carp for aquaculture?

If you are looking to reduce/eliminate green algae in a pond, here is an organic method:
http://www.howeseeds.com/specialitygrains.htm

this was an interesting thread re: carp from last year
https://permies.com/bb/index.php?topic=3967.0

K.B. wrote:
this was an interesting thread re: carp from last year
https://permies.com/bb/index.php?topic=3967.0

that was interesting thanks for linking it.

The veggies from my aquaponics go to feed us, any surplus goes to chickens or rabbits.  However I keep an electric bug light burning over the pond ( It is really a 1000 gal. stock tank) and that feeds the fish all summer.  In fact I often have lots of bugs in the morning after the fish have had their fill to scoop up for the chickens.  Attrition has reduced the number of catfish and all my tanks are understocked.  Even so the veggie yield is good.  In fact I fertilize the dirt garden out of the fish tanks, to help keep the water from getting foul.  I am working on adding verticle gardens over the pond to add more biofilter for winters when the dirt garden needs less water.
Those will require another pump and increase oxygenation as the water drops back into the pond.  At that point I will be able to support more fish and intend to go with the Israeli carp.

we have a rather large pond 175 x 75 before we enlarged it last year, not sure of the size right now as it is still filling up with the spring rains larger.

we have had goldfish breed in it for several years now, no water inlet other than ground and rain water, and no outlet other than an overflow..it freezes over completely and is about 10' deep in the deep areas and has quite shallow areas too.

I would like to add some protein fish to the pond for us to eat..we don't feed our goldfish, they do fine on their own, there are hundreds of them...they breed like rabbits

i am hoping to get a bubbler and maybe a filter and water fall as a gift from my sister who is thinking of closing up her pond..but right now it is only a clay bottom pond..with lots of cattails and a few water lilies, etc.

i was wondering about tilapia??

Brenda Groth wrote:

i was wondering about tilapia??

what about them? Depends where you are, in warm regions where they are legal, tilapia is a great choice. there are solid practical reasons why tilapia and common carp are the most farmed fish, and have both been farmed thousands of years.

though I prefer carp slightly. tilapia has the same taste issues as carp does. We just dnt often realize this in the states, because we eat mainly farmed tilapia, and they use various means to get the meat tasty. in the wild tilapia eat mainly green water algae, and detritus. they eat and reeat all the decaying matter on the bottom of the lake. they actually digest the bacteria off of it, and break it down slightly in the process which then allows the bacteria to further colonize it and break it down further. So its a bit more of a bottom feeder then carp actually. Carp has a better taste if you raise it right.

If you get the right carp, the israeli ones, they will out grow the tilapia, they can get much larger and still have good meat. they both are great at turning their food into their growth.

tilapia are easy to feed, but carp even easier. Both will make do with whatever is there but my tilapia seem dramatically pickier to me. tilapia also get rather territorial, it can be an issue depending on your set up. If you have a lot of them but not a thick concentration they can get super mean to eachother. At high stocking densities they arent like that.

both are easy to breed, both will over breed your pond. Youd really want to pull out babies, or supplementally feed or something to balance it out. since your using a pond, some might choose a bass or two in there to clean up the babies, but I wouldnt do that myself, I want to grow all my families fish. tilapia will breed at much younger ages then carp.

Carp are much more cold tolerant of course. but that all depends on where you live.

If your goldfish do fine on their own, if you got them out of there (and its warm enough for tilapia outside where you are all winter) then carp or tilapia would both readily be able to fend for themselves in your set up. You could additionally feed them pretty much whatever you want, though tilapia seem much picker to me. but it enables you to grow them at whatever level you like. 

hope that helps.

Brenda, I'm guessing it is too cold for tilapia where you are unless you raise them in a heated tank.

"Temperature requirements:
Growing: 80-87 F
Spawning: Greater than 72
Lethal: 55 F"

http://www.ces.purdue.edu/extmedia/AS/AS-494.html

H Ludi Tyler wrote:
Brenda, I'm guessing it is too cold for tilapia where you are unless you raise them in a heated tank.

"Temperature requirements:
Growing: 80-87 F
Spawning: Greater than 72
Lethal: 55 F"

http://www.ces.purdue.edu/extmedia/AS/AS-494.html

blue tilapia unlike all the others can stand temps to 45-50.... but they dont like it and can then have compromised immune systems for the rest of their lives.....

you could take out some nice adults each fall and put them back in the spring. they should breed and fill the place back up, but youll have fish just a bit to small for most peoples ideas of a fillet, from what I understand. They dont breed instantly.

we wouldnt have this conversation if there wasnt a stigma about carp in the states. in all reality the tilapia has the exact same issue. the farmed ones we buy at stores, were usually purged, and raised in tanks, so they never had a chance to eat the junk they prefer in the wild. same as farm raised carp as opposed to the wild stuff that gave carp its stigma.....

H Ludi Tyler wrote:
Brenda, I'm guessing it is too cold for tilapia where you are unless you raise them in a heated tank.

"Temperature requirements:
Growing: 80-87 F
Spawning: Greater than 72
Lethal: 55 F"

http://www.ces.purdue.edu/extmedia/AS/AS-494.html

I believe Michael Reynolds aka the Garbage Warrior is working on an indoor pond for a greenhouse that does raise Talapia.  I think the man won't be happy till he makes a permie biodome out of recycled materials. 

Mekka Pakanohida wrote:

I believe Michael Reynolds aka the Garbage Warrior is working on an indoor pond for a greenhouse that does raise Talapia.  I think the man won't be happy till he makes a permie biodome out of recycled materials.   

why would you bother with all that when carp doesnt need it, or if you did that would thrive in winter instead of survive.... and they are as tasty as tilapia?

I was in contact with his garden designer awhile. I should write her about it....Last I talked to her they were going to start implementing a bunch of things i was relating to them. Hopefully it inspired her to realize the potentials and seek out more info to.

http://www.walmart.com/ip/My-Sunshine-12-x-39-Metal-Frame-Pool/15711173#ShortReviewTitleBar

has anyone had one of these swimming pools? i was thinking of getting stock tanks like you use for cattle those last for decades. For the same price I could get this and have much more space.

Does anyone know how well they hold up???

SILVERSEEDS wrote:

i was thinking of getting stock tanks like you use for cattle those last for decades.

Just make use not to use the galvanized metal ones, because they can cause zinc poisoning in fish.  http://www.aquaponics.net.au/aqua1/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=84:can-i-use-old-galvanised-tanks-or-grow-beds-&catid=50:operating-a-system&Itemid=58

  As far as I can tell the poly plastic stock tanks are safe.

Hey Silver! You talkin' carp again?

I am in very deep contemplation of the large crumbling crater in my little back yard, that was the future home of a blue gill pond, that you already convinced me should be the future home of mirror carp...

It would be at least 15'X15', with a small area being 6' deep. (Though I do worry about losing toddlers or drunks in it. ) My sandy-mediumed biolfilter will be 1/3 the surface area, as per somebody on the 'net. The one my ex-gardeining partner made for my teeny weeny pond in the front yard works really, really well, so I'll get him to come back and help me with this one.

I was intrigued by someone here, sorry, forgot who said that an underwater release from the biofilter could oxygenate more effectively, and in winter as well? My teeny front yard pond filter runs into the teeny pond via an above water bamboo pipe, which is an attractive feature, and makes up for the stone fountain not being usable b/c it loses too much water.

I'm unsure about running motors all winter, what kinds can take the Iowa freeze. I would like them to be solar powered, and need to read how to make one myself to save money. Probably the carp would winter over without help, but probably not as many as if I kept a flow for more oxygen?

Another problem is leaves. My little pond up front stays clear with the motor running the water through the sand filter (where I grow watercress and calamus), but leaves will cover the surface of the water if I'm not there to pull them off; they will clog the motor, too, and the filter stops working. Particularly in fall, but I do mulch with leaves quite a bit, so they tend to be about all summer. In my very first leetle weeny pond I lost my good friends Fred and George the goldfish when I left town and the fall leaves smothered them. (They had a great summer chasing each other around happily and getting bigger and bigger on thin air, first, at least.)

I'm thinking that some leaves making muck in the bottom or on the ledges is not a bad thing, as it would provide some habitat? For frogs, maybe? I have had a frog sighting before, but they have not settled in yet around the front yard pond.

Sorry for rambling. I'm hoping if I think about it "outloud", and hopefully get some input, I can figure some stuff out and move forward with this project. Though "the crater" has been a convenient place to dump leaf bags from my neighborhood raids, and the stupid drip irrigation system that never worked that i finally tore up in a fury. But a fish pond really does sound more picturesque than a landfill.

kellygirrl wrote:
Hey Silver! You talkin' carp again?

 

they build the airpumps and the like for outside use, some even can take the full weather, but you get more expensive I imagine. It all depends on surface area how much extra oxygen you might need. and certainly the more oxygen the more fish....

if possible you would do better with atleast one spot that doesnt freeze. so there can be atleast some gas exchange....

as for leaves? i dunno a windbreak of some type of bush perhaps to catch them? or maybe a net to keep out leaves toodlers and drunks?

Lots of cool stuff would like the leaves in there. maybe frogs i dunno.  scuds and related animals, lots of phyto planktonish things... they would help feed the fish and break those leaves up into a perfect soil. in fact in many countries they raise fish in ponds like that, with part of the goal being to drain it and collect that soil. those folks often put down manure to start the year as well (dont do this if your not going to drain the pond) and that inspires algae and phyto plankton to bloom all year helping feed the fish, many of those same set ups, use ducks on the pond to, to further fertilize the water, for plant growth for the fish....

SILVERSEEDS wrote: im also going to try to find a non electric way to keep their tanks from freezing in winter. So any ideas on how to keep 60 gallon drums from freezing in winter would be great.

How many 60 gallon tanks do you have? If you get close to 250 gallons I think a solar greenhouse would work well. In a solar greenhouse in Pennsylvania at -20F outside it retained 34F inside with no heat other than the sun. I am building one in Minnesota in about a month.

Mekka Pakanohida wrote:

I believe Michael Reynolds aka the Garbage Warrior is working on an indoor pond for a greenhouse that does raise Talapia.  I think the man won't be happy till he makes a permie biodome out of recycled materials.   

i contacted their outdoor garden planner (i think that what she does, plants for sure) and talked to her about carp and some other stuff. Im glad you brought this up as i almost forgot to touch base with her this spring..... they now have a permie intern as well, and are in nearly the same area as me (VERY similar anyway, also the same state) so I guess they will be implementing lots of the things Ive been talking about with her, and helping me on some breeding projects in the years to come.....

Firecraft wrote:
How many 60 gallon tanks do you have? If you get close to 250 gallons I think a solar greenhouse would work well. In a solar greenhouse in Pennsylvania at -20F outside it retained 34F inside with no heat other than the sun. I am building one in Minnesota in about a month.

I think I might go with a 4500 gallon metal pool now that Ive found out their price. It wont last as long as the 60 gallon barrels, or the stock tanks Id imagine, but it should last a decade or two, and is the same price as a single stock tank of 180 gallons....

so plans changed a bit.... Im sure that would work fine though.

I think I might go with a 4500 gallon metal pool now that Ive found out their price

Is that a plastic pool with a metal frame?  If you shade it, it will last longer.  Are you sure it is fish safe?

velacreations wrote:
Is that a plastic pool with a metal frame?  If you shade it, it will last longer.  Are you sure it is fish safe?

dang I forgot that. i was thinking of this for awhile, and another poster even told me the issues with metal... Im going to have to ensure its plastic lined... I think so but not positive...

i just looked at the one im thinking of... it actually specifies metal framed, but doesnt mention the lining of the pool... dang it, I guess I will have to research a bit, thanks for pointing it out to me though...

  looks like it has a heavy vinyl lining... anyone know off hand if thats okay for fish, and snails and the like? Or if leeching is a big issue? 

  Id love something made of cement or something else that will always be around, but not in my budget for now.... this is the best I think I can do.... lots of others things for me to get.

I lined a cistern with a PVC liner this summer, it is potable water certified, so it would be fine for fish.  Not sure if that is useful or not.

Leaching could be an issue, but I am no expert.  Most liners explicitly say "Fish Safe" if they truly are....

Alternatively, you could build your own, make a metal frame, and then buy an EPDM fish safe liner.

Is there a link to the mentioned pool? and what price?

SILVERSEEDS wrote:

Lots of cool stuff would like the leaves in there. maybe frogs i dunno.  scuds and related animals, lots of phyto planktonish things... they would help feed the fish and break those leaves up into a perfect soil. in fact in many countries they raise fish in ponds like that, with part of the goal being to drain it and collect that soil. those folks often put down manure to start the year as well (dont do this if your not going to drain the pond) and that inspires algae and phyto plankton to bloom all year helping feed the fish, many of those same set ups, use ducks on the pond to, to further fertilize the water, for plant growth for the fish....

Good to hear that the leaves could be an asset, if they don't block the filter, or become too thick and smother the fishies...It occurs to me that Fred and George (RIP) had a little Findhorn-style waterfall, but no biofilter. Maybe I can but the pump in a cage that the leaves would not cover too solidly, blocking flow? hm

You bring up another big question for me, re the ducks. Being familiar with The Power of Duck, I still wonder if access to the pond by my future ducks would be helpful or difficult in a smaller system. I thought that the fish poo would be enough challenge for the filter system. Won't the fishies make more than enough poo/nitrogen by themselves?

When the next door neighbor's come down to earth and agree to sell their house for a fair price (to me!), then I could make my pond bigger, extending into their yard (my future chicken/duck yard). Or, should I have a separate duck pond? I can't reason through it.

kellygirrl wrote:
Good to hear that the leaves could be an asset, if they don't block the filter, or become too thick and smother the fishies...It occurs to me that Fred and George (RIP) had a little Findhorn-style waterfall, but no biofilter. Maybe I can but the pump in a cage that the leaves would not cover too solidly, blocking flow? hm

You bring up another big question for me, re the ducks. Being familiar with The Power of Duck, I still wonder if access to the pond by my future ducks would be helpful or difficult on a system of this smaller size than Takao Furuno's. I thought that the fish poo would be enough challenge for the filter system. Won't the fishies make more than enough poo/nitrogen by themselves?

When the next door neighbor's come down to earth and agree to sell their house for a fair price (to me!), then I could make my pond bigger, extending into their yard (my future chicken/duck yard). Or, should I have a separate duck pond? I can't reason through it.

Most would not agree on the leaves. they will release nitrogen like anything else. It all depends how you manage the whole thing really. they can support other types of life though, that help the fish. their immune systems are stronger with live foods, both plants and things like phyto plankton, or other little meatish things. im focused more on tank culture so I dont know fully the physics of small ponds. but i have read a decent amount on them....

there are a 1000 ways you could manage  the pond really. in the cases where the duck and fish poo and even added manure before the pond is stocked... all that is to purposely cause massive algae blooms that the fish eat. THAT becomes part of the filter. Personally within the pond Id have a section of the surface devoted to ensuring the fish dont finish off various plants... it actually a bit easier to manage in an earthen pond then a tank, I read the reason why before but forget it.... the folks who use such systems have NO filters. that is a third world method. they use shovels, and baskets they made themselves and things for the most part, although theyve been upgrading they did it this way until recently and many still do.

most of the people who use such ponds will drain them yearly. harvest the soil on the bottom that the fish and added manure built, re manure it, then re fill it.  after letting the soil dry out. they never use a filter and purposely use high stocking densities and grow hordes of algaes and plants for the fish. draining it is to break up any possible disease cycles, which are rarely an issue, but they can be if you keep REALLY high densities.... what some of these folks do just blows the mind. you could nearly walk across the ponds on the backs of the fish. I am not after those densities, but it just shows the various ways to structure this.

mmm im not good at writing, but basically YOU have to decide the model that works best for you... will you use a low amount of fish, and just feed them scraps and whatever they find in the pond? do you wantlots more fish, and then need to account for a larger bioload whether through growing hordes of plants and algaes or filtering systems like sand filters..... you can put the variables together any way you like, but until you get a system down, you would be wise to know how to check nitrate levels and the like, and make sure your in safe ranges.  in which case you can take out fish or the ducks, OR find ways to make sure more plants grow to use up these nutrients, or a bigger or second sand filter etc....

Im repeating myself but Im trying to make sure i explain it in a way that makes sense. Id read into it, Ive encountered many many realms of thought and basic ways of structuring these things. especially for small ponds. you could make that thing crank out fish, and need lots of work, be decent and a bit of work, or low production and nearly no work.... basically....

velacreations wrote:
I lined a cistern with a PVC liner this summer, it is potable water certified, so it would be fine for fish.  Not sure if that is useful or not.

Leaching could be an issue, but I am no expert.  Most liners explicitly say "Fish Safe" if they truly are....

Alternatively, you could build your own, make a metal frame, and then buy an EPDM fish safe liner.

Is there a link to the mentioned pool? and what price?

I wouldnt know where to start making a frame strong enough to hold that much water. especially of metal. most of my tools are for the garden. I could dig one out and use epdm, but ive got a 4 year old, i kinda like the idea of it being off the ground. he will know not to mess with it, but if he can see into it easily, he might mess around anyway, or chase a ball into it...

Im not sure how is built exactly, perhaps i can use the epdm with the one I want?

http://www.walmart.com/ip/My-Sunshine-15-x-48-Metal-Frame-Above-Ground-Pool/15522796

I will have to research vinyl I guess.

the liner actually holds the weight of the water, not the frame.  The frame just holds the liner from falling to the ground.  there is no way a metal frame like that could hold that much water.

I'm sure you can find stuff online about it...  it should be pretty easy, just some way to attach the liner to the frame.

Our tank was metal sides, bolted together, and then there was a track at the top that the liner fit into. Very simple installation, anyone with a hand drill could do it.

velacreations wrote:
the liner actually holds the weight of the water, not the frame.  The frame just holds the liner from falling to the ground.  there is no way a metal frame like that could hold that much water.

I'm sure you can find stuff online about it...  it should be pretty easy, just some way to attach the liner to the frame.

Our tank was metal sides, bolted together, and then there was a track at the top that the liner fit into. Very simple installation, anyone with a hand drill could do it.

was it something you ordered online? what was the price range and size?

ouch... the pool wont work at all. its treated for various things, and not good for fish. I could buy a different liner for it, but thats nearly double the price. i could get a regular pool liner, but i used those a lot as a landscapper, and I dont really trust them fully. Lots of possible issues. and Ive got tons of trees here, rocks, etc. plus i dont ant something dug out preferably BC of my son.

Looks like Im back to stock tanks which are fish safe, and the 60 gallon drums.

I know some here disagree that 60 and 180 gallons are enough, but theres been people growing them in areas that small for a very long time. mine are happy in their 60 gallons, or atleast always in playful moods and swimming around fast. sure look healthy to me, and are growing well.

eventually im going to build a solid cement one. i could actually do it right in my native soil with some efforts, as I have that expanding clay in my soil, but I prefer guarantees.

This is the tank I am considering, but it is expensive:

http://www.tractorsupply.com/livestock/livestock-equipment/stock-tanks/stock-tank-300-gal-2229935

here's where I got mine for a 7500 gallon potable water tank:  http://www.websweeper.com/liner/tank-liner/

do you have any links for information about sand filters, stocking ratios, etc?

velacreations wrote:
here's where I got mine for a 7500 gallon potable water tank:  http://www.websweeper.com/liner/tank-liner/

do you have any links for information about sand filters, stocking ratios, etc?

put "DIY sand filter" into a search....  you should find dozens of designs. or DIY sponge filter.

As for stocking ratios. Its VERY relative. You can have a VERY WIDE range, but youll have to grow more plants, or use bigger bio filters etc. Until you get your own personal system down, simply take measurements and ensure your not at to high of rates for ammonia and the others...

Like I was saying in many third world countries, they use duck and fish stocked SUPEr heavily, and even add 2 feet of manure before the season. nitrates never over take it, without ANY filter because they grow massive amounts of algae in the pond that the fish eat.

honestly you can do it many ways. you need to balance the equation though. So how ever much wastes your fish produce, you need to filter that amount, whether through a sand filter(or other bio filter not charcoal) or growing plants or other means. You can raise the mount of fish drastically to a point wed all agree its not fair to the fish. In which case you can grow more plants to account for THOSE levels.... and like I was saying, in some countries they purposely add more things to instigate plant growth, and stock real heavy...

Basically Im trying to say, YOU decide.

heres a way to do it.....

figure out how big your tanks will be. Then decide how many fish you feel its safe/fair to grow there. A small tank go towards the lower end of possible densities. a large one you could get crazy if you wanted. then figure out how you will clean the water, whether with plants, or with other bio filters like sand filters... and set that up.

I dont want to say, do it X way, because it can be done so many ways..... plus Im still working out the exact numbers on my set up anyway..... trust me when I say the skys the limit, some people raise so many it seems you could walk across their back, over the water. with no filters but algae!!! those are in the dirt though which I forget why but mitigates the issues slightly.

what I'm trying to find out is if there are some general rules of thumb, like in aquaponics, and other systems (1 gal fish tank volume : 2 gallons filter bed volume)

For most of us, we don't know where to start.  Say I have a tank of 100 gallons, how many fish is safe/fair to grow in there?  If it was an aquaponics system, it would be 3kg per 100L max, or 25 fish per 500L filter volume (1 fish per 20L).

I understand that there are numerous ways and nothing is certain, but having a rough idea of the needs of a particular sized system is extremely helpful for beginners.

also, for aquaponics, it is often recommended to cycle the fish tank volume every 1-2 hours, which is useful information for sizing a pump.

by the way, here is a simple tank build:

http://www.aquaponiclynx.com/new-fish-tank

 Well thats just it though. i dont want to define it. first of all, im not 100 percent clear on how my system will ultimately play out.

  second you can put these pieces together in 1000 ways.

  with your example of 1 gallon of fish tank volume per 2 gallons of growing area, doesnt cover how many fish are in that space. this is EXTRMELY variable.

 tank size plays a role, density of fish. feed style.... hordes of things. hoe many fish are safe in there? well what type of fish first of all? how will you feed them? for instance dry feeds not eaten right away fowl the water... another reason i want to feed water plants, because I can feed at levels that the fish finish off well before they decay and foul the water.

  Basically how clean can your system keep the water? If your growing plants fast enough they can handle more fish, then do it, if you want.... its all a math problem.

  Also i cannot tell you what is fair for the fish. I can tell you, people hve grown carp in tanks as small as I am, and well for 1000s of years. though usually bigger of course, some were indeed as small as I have.

   i can also tell you, people have grown them at such densities that you could barely see the floor of the tanks.

  the standard in fish farming seems to often be up to a pound of fish per gallon. thats huge. some go as high as 3. Most of those folks use antibiotics. which by the way including probiotics in your feeds somehow is very wise no matter if you have 1 fish or 1000. From what Ive read though Im going to settle on 1 pound of fish per 3 gallons. hordes of people used roughly that amount (and WAY more actually) safely without disease issues...

  also for disease issues, heres a tidbit you wont always find.... that is a major reality. Most carp farms feed powdered grains to baby fry. or  chicken eggs they cook in a certain way that makes it tiny. those both work... others get a bit better results coupling that with green water algae in their fish fry tanks.... the fry then have a bit of algae to feed on in that stage of their life, and your fry will have a higher survival rate. It gets better though, and less people do this but many always have.... gorw phyto plankton.... like rotifers, and moina, and daphnia... AND green water.... you do that and the fish will have a better immune system and be healthier its enitre life. Your survival rates will be as high as possible like that, provided you did well at providing those things. tilapia being mouth brooders this isnt as much an issue, but they benefit as well. giving live foods helps the fish its entire life actually but is especially important at those early stages.

   so basically start backwards YOU decide how big of a tank you can get. Then decide how many fish you feel it is fair to grow in there. then decide how you want to filter the water... do you want to use all or mostly plants? do you just want a system that uses sand or other bio filters? a mix of both? For me it will be growing all the plants possible, then finishing the water off with a sand filter before it goes back to the fish. probably some charcoal as well, for a final polishing, which will simply then become my biochar for my soil. Im not set up for making good batches of that yet. I irrigate some things in my yard (though im working on lessening this, through breeding and method... takes time though) so if thats not enough, which it certainly should be... i can change out some water and use it in the garden.

   im not going to tell you how to do it. my system will be rather hands on and primitive. you could do it all automated if you wanted. eventually I will have manual windmills pumping the oxygen into my water... rather then electrical. It is windy enough for hat here.

with your example of 1 gallon of fish tank volume per 2 gallons of growing area, doesnt cover how many fish are in that space. this is EXTRMELY variable.

that ratio goes with the ratio of 1 fish per 20L of filter, so 1 fish per 10L fish tank...

I agree that there are thousands of ways to set these systems up, but for a beginner, it sure helps to have a place to start.

1 pound of fish per 3 gallons is similar to the suggest aquaponics rates.  How big is your filter?

And where did you read examples of people doing it that way?  I would like some info and reading material, as well!

If you could point me to some sources of info that recommend starting points for sizes of filters, number of plants, etc to use as a starting point, that would be good.    Where did you find the information to start planning your system?

velacreations wrote:
that ratio goes with the ratio of 1 fish per 20L of filter, so 1 fish per 10L fish tank...

I agree that there are thousands of ways to set these systems up, but for a beginner, it sure helps to have a place to start.

1 pound of fish per 3 gallons is similar to the suggest aquaponics rates.  How big is your filter?

My filter? well now mine are inside... Ive not set it up yet. I got my fish late last fall. For now Ive got nothing but sponge filters and water changes, with a few types of water plants I feed them growing in windows.....

As I move outside? Well Obviously I dont know yet. Im going to do exactly what I said. Grow as many plants as possible, in kiddy pools. then polish the water with sand filters and charcoal. Mine will NOT be on a continual loop as this takes electricity. My water will be moved both by a hand pump daily, and with a solar pump. so filter size? 4-5 kiddy pools, plus a 55 gallon drum as a sand filter..... i will expand into more plants if at all possible because kiddy pools are cheap, and last a long time, and the plants im growing are more efficient at growth then land based plants, I want to feed my fish, my chickens, and guinea pigs... all of which can eat these things the second two only partially. Id also like to have some for building my biomass onsite....  im not so sure why you are so stuck on this.

perhaps my approach isnt permie style I dont know....

you have a place to start. how much fish do you want to grow? how much space do you have? what stocking rate do you think is fair to the fish? how big of a tank can you afford?

answer all those questions first. theres your start... then from there decide how to filter it. those answers will dictate how extreme you might have to go with biological filtration, or what plants will accomplish alone.... A grow bed large enough to feed the fish, then a large sand filter would fit MANY set ups.... just depends on what you want, and want to do.

how much filtration do you need? well how much ammonia are your fish making? To many variables for me to tell you.  simply change out water as needed until you find a balance....

And where did you read examples of people doing it that way?  I would like some info and reading material, as well!

If you could point me to some sources of info that recommend starting points for sizes of filters, number of plants, etc to use as a starting point, that would be good.    Where did you find the information to start planning your system?

where did I read examples of people doing this what way? in ponds? in small tanks as mine? the high densities?

well Ive been reading all winter gearing up to set up this spring. Most of the work thats relevant to me directly is out of third world countries, lots of stuff from the phillipines and vietnam... and asia in general. Lots of fish culturing there.....

thats just the things and i keep saying this... there are thousands of ways people do this. Ive studied low tech stuff from third wold nations. aqua ponics, people with koi ponds in their yards.... koi breeders stuff... and on and on..... theres a set of variables. fish produce wastes. theres a ton of ways to deal with them. Tools so to speak.... Im aware of no one setting it up precisely as Im planning.

Lots of folks raise fish ponds of koi for fun with sand filters, others use store bought sand filters of a different nature, others use other means... all do the same things...

alternatively lots of folks have various high density systems, others use plants as all or part of this....

Ive got nothing to directly compare this to, to answer the question and tell you THIS is the way to do it.

For myself.. im working on the cheapest, efficient way to safely raise the most amount of fish with the least electrical inputs, and feeding them all on site....


honestly I doubt youll find the numbers your after... unless you figure it out yourself. the closest comparative in some regards is aqua culture... and they dont focus on fish, rather the plants. for me its the fish that are important, so I bring in sand filters and perhaps larger growing areas. which by the way surface area of those not volume is more important..... hence the shallow kiddy pools....

what I do know is, the fish have been grown in area as small as mine, at higher densities then I intend, and that I have many tools to balance out the water. one of which literally feeds the fish. And I can change out water until i perfect a closed loop....

 
    Decided to make a few things clearer if i could, for anyone who may be following the thread.

    I have many tiers to my projects here. Im building a pond I hope to have completed on land outside of town I own. I also have a 1/4 acre in town. I garden here, and do testing on various variables, and I do out there as well. Ultimately that is the proving grounds. My home is the testing grounds. well i test there to... ways to play with variables with various methods...

    anyway... for now with the carp.... I am setting up to make a closed loop style system with the fish. the system will more then feed the fish, and other critters im trying out. Im trying crayfish to, living in the grow out ponds for the water plants.... also clams, but not sure they will fit well. lots of other beneficials I have in there to.

      Now ultimately the goal isnt a closed loop system per se. It is a system that provides ALL the food for the fish, (chickens and guinea pigs will get the scraps here) and that I can manage on site. I fully intend to keep the fish happy and healthy, BUT maximize that. I realize some folks might have issues with that or disagree on this. but Im intending densities that people grew these fish at for a long time.
and safely. I will happily change out water if its needed to maintain balance. in fact i think this is likely healthier anyway.

      Longer term, i will be working on a pond that takes care of itself.... or atleast mostly does. I will have to manage it a bit. but Im simply not there yet, that will also be much more work and money.

      anyway for now, Im a 1/4 acre boy in this regard. Breaking down the numbers it seems rather clear, because of the efficiency of water based plants, and efficiency of carp that you can grow a large amount of protein in your yard. There are suburbanites all over this country, who have enough room to grow all their protein... veggies and fruits and nuts are great for such people, but most never can produce their staples in their yards.... with carp its possible!!! for meat that is. You can raise them and their food on site, in a small space and do well with it.

    some people might say, (even though im stocking at densities WAY below commercial folks) that its not enough room for the fish. Ive seen them seemingly happy at this level, but thats a valid point, but a personal opinion as well. humans shouldnt be bottled up like this either.... yet here many of us are... cramped into suburbs, and even massive cities. I make myself live here, and Im mostly happy, like i presume my carp are mostly happy based on how they act. Id love more room to play, hence the 5 acres Im working with.... with expanding into more land with a commercial orchard as I know which trees perform best here... So raising the carp like this isnt any worse then raising myself and kids like this.

    truth is its going to take time for people to get back in poly cultures with the world. we are mono cropping ourselves here to keep in mind. So until we spread back out, things like raising carp in close but safe quarters... is just the type of things we need....

      granted this is all just My opinion here.... but i felt the need to better explain myself here.

    ultimately Im going to be sitting in my own oasis, with my carp in their happy pond, and various other animals and plants all raised in managed but balanced ways... where effort is minimalized by the balance of it. Like pauls chicken paddock article basically... I have lots of roots to grow... and I assume that many others will take longer thenmyself to get there, so perfecting this carp thing, is pertinent for me....

    it can be done rather cheaply if need be!!! (although more work is involved) especially if you can salvage some things.

for those interested in DIY type research regarding aquaculture or just plaing raising your own backyard fish, the publications of the New Alchemy Institute (from decades gone by) are still available online:
http://www.thegreencenter.net/

you have to follow the links through the site to get to their old journals and research pubs, but it's there.  Interesting reading with lots of data tracking.

K.B. wrote:
for those interested in DIY type research regarding aquaculture or just plaing raising your own backyard fish, the publications of the New Alchemy Institute (from decades gone by) are still available online:
http://www.thegreencenter.net/

you have to follow the links through the site to get to their old journals and research pubs, but it's there.  Interesting reading with lots of data tracking.

interesting set up.  It wasnt terribly productive and still required outside inputs for the food???

weekly 20 percent water changes? only 40 pounds of fish produced? all outside inputs for feed?

It had a small surface area, which isnt congruent to this..... you get more gaseous exchange with a bigger surface area....

also they reference how the uneaten feed works in the system. thats the great thing about using carp with live feeds. there is NO uneaten feed. they also like it much much better, and are healthier. which in turn makes them grow better i would assume.

they kinda imply heat is always good, it  isnt exactly true that heat always makes things grow better. depends on the fish of course. and you need warm for sure, but not as hot as you can get it.... of course they used a lot of tilapia it seems, they mention having tried many fish but only name tilapia and catfish.

also a poster here had an answer to the nitrate build up in lettuce, but its still not neaarly of efficient of a grower as the things that would feed the fish.

I dont think this is close to as good as we can get actually....

If you go through their journals, they New Alchemy folks had lots of different fish culture systems set up with different results for each.

It does indeed look like a highly variable system, but thats ok.

I think there is room for diversity in how you approach it. I personally like the kind of set up that Sepp has, alternating shallow and deeper ponds.  I'd do it on a smaller scale, but to each their own.