the first willow feeder (wheelie bin pooper) at paul's place - "chateau de poo"

Ok, I just realized that Paul isn't going to go for something that doesn't accommodate tall people. I've added 2' to the overall height of the design which should make it reasonably comfortable for people up to 7' tall to use.

Apple for you Tom.

I prefer to not use plywood or waferboard or particleboard in my stuff.

Did you see the stuff about the trombe wall?

Well then... Now that I know that there is an expectation that I actually read through all the previous messages thoroughly before jumping right in , I do now see that along with the other request to not use plywood. Even without plywood, I would still keep the dimensions the same even if you were to use fencing.

As for the trombe wall... Hmmm. To make the trombe wall really work you need a significant amount of thermal mass. I am not so sure that the little amount of cob that has been suggested would work. And to add enough mass, would make the entire structure much much harder to drag, and the act of dragging it would really concern me once you started taking that cob mass over bumps and holes becasue cob walls are not designed to withstand that sort of kinetic energy. Hoping that mass would not break apart and come crashing down is something I would want to think long and hard about before incorporating it.

It seems that previous outhouse vent designs have worked just fine without trying to engineer some sort of thermo-siphon into it. Could this possibly be an attempt to over engineer a solution to a problem that doesn't really exist?

Haven't had time to download Sketchup yet, though as a mechanical designer playing with it looks like fun. (So many projects, so little me to do them.)

I'm curious about something that might affect the design. I know that there are bears on and around the property... (Bear Spray thread) and that they've already done a little damage. One reason to pack your poo out when camping in bear territory (so I've been told) other than leave-no-trace is that bears will dig it up if buried.

Does this "wheeliepooper" need to be bear-proof? Is the poo likely to attract them? I'm having some pretty horrendous visions of what cleanup would be like if a bear got into a half-full Rubbermaid trash can...

I'm not sure of this design, as little research went into the requirements needed for poop to break down, I added glass on the top for heat acting as a dryer & possible to speed up the process breaking down, or one could add black plastic 6 to 10 inches below the glass to prevent UV from harming the bacteria thus giving heat & humidly I know the end result for compost is more powdered like & dry crumbly.
Urine water is filtered through a sand filter.
I would also design different for winter more insulation and heating system from the main house to prevent freezing ect, dried Moss sporangia works well for ass wipe as well


outhouse

Kelly Kitchens wrote:Haven't had time to download Sketchup yet, though as a mechanical designer playing with it looks like fun. (So many projects, so little me to do them.)

I'm curious about something that might affect the design. I know that there are bears on and around the property... (Bear Spray thread) and that they've already done a little damage. One reason to pack your poo out when camping in bear territory (so I've been told) other than leave-no-trace is that bears will dig it up if buried.

Does this "wheeliepooper" need to be bear-proof? Is the poo likely to attract them? I'm having some pretty horrendous visions of what cleanup would be like if a bear got into a half-full Rubbermaid trash can...

The following is from: http://adventure.howstuffworks.com/outdoor-activities/hiking/5-ways-to-attract-bears.htm#page=6


Conventional wisdom might lead you to beli­eve that urinating around your campsite is a good way to mark your territory. Certainly no bear would cross into the claim you've staked with your own excrement, right? Actually, wrong -- the opposite is true. Urine odor attracts bears. So you should do your peeing far from the campsite or dispose of the waste elsewhere.

Let's face it, we've all got to do our business at some point. So, the best way to handle this predicament simply is to walk away from your campsite to tinkle. Or, you could even pee into some kind of bottle or container and dispose of it once you're away from your site. Also, be aware of the direction the wind is blowing when nature calls. The smell could send a signal to bears downwind. On that note, your campsite should be upwind from your urine. When you need to go number two, dig a hole 6 to 8 inches (15 to 20 centimeters) deep and squat. When you're done, cover up the hole and stamp it with your foot. Be sure to do this type of business at least 100 feet (30.5 meters) away from any water source.

Truly a Throne fit for the Duke! Two steps up, with sideboards for reading material or laptops. Full length mirror, drawers, cupboard, and conveniently located sink.


Storage and fold-down access for three "cans", gravity-fed water catchment tank, and detachable step for moving the bivy.

= )
(oops, forgot the exterior loaded sawdust bin ....)

If you put a port and valve on the bucket/barrel, you can connect a hose and pump the contents out with a handcrank. From there, you could use a closed tank on a tow-behind trailer to take it wherever it needs to go. No splashing, heaving, hernias, slipped discs, or feelings of undue punishment.

Though theoretically, if you, for some reason, had something against sump hardware, you could nest a sealable bucket inside a wheelie bin dedicated to the purpose of moving the filled buckets when necessary.

I am of the opinion that, while simple is oftentimes better, complicating things just a little can make for cleaner and more efficient work, thus more time to do other work, or eat pie. Mmmmm, pie.

-CK

Here's a working sketchup model we've been tinkering w/ @ BC. Bill, when I get a chance I'll be opening your file to play with it. Looks "Dukish" indeed.

Just as a follow-up, after digging around on the internet and asking as many folks as I could who actually have experience living in bear country, there seem to be little fear of bears messing with the poo in the wheelie bin.

The whole "camping" advice on disposing of poo because of bears doesn't really apply to this discussion, so for design purposes it's moot.

I am curious and have a question for Paul, though. It's clear you don't want to use plywood in the build. What kind of lumber DO you want to use? You seem to be ok with the cedar fencing idea. What about 4x4's and 2x4's for framing? I'd assume you don't want treated wood... and untreated 4x4's don't seem as common. Maybe landscaping timbers (assuming we can find any straight ones)?

Also, with no plywood, we're locked into planks for the seat area. Will require a little more care in assembly to not wind up with cracks that would enable flies to get in.

Is fiberglass screening ok for the vent intake and outlet (to keep flies out)?

What about stainless steel screening? If I remember correctly fiber glass is held together with a type of strong glue, hence the same problem as with plywood.

Just a thought regarding flies. Why not populate the poop bucket with Black Soldier Fly Larvae? If they are already living in the barrel, there is little chance of a competing insect taking up residence.

The bucket full of poo is like bare earth; something is going to set up shop, so I think it is better to decide what you want there before nature makes the decision.

-CK

Chris,

That's why I was discussing screening. Flies are a problem in this type of system, which primarily does it's composting in the two years that the full bins sit cooking at temperatures guaranteed to kill all human sickness-causing pathogens.

Since this system gets fresh poo added throughout the day, allowing flies to breed in there and to freely fly to and from it introduces a pathogen vector into the surrounding area. Flies that crawl around in the bin and then fly out and crawl around on people, or livestock, or feed, or whatever, are something one would want to prevent.

It why the bin should be tightly sealed under the seat area, and why the toilet lid should have a fly proof seal and should remain closed mostly.

Just my understanding based on the podcasts I've listened to and the composting bin style outhouses I've researched in the past.

Kelly, BSFL are valued for their ability to process a wide variety of matter, including manure. They are good for this in that their life cycle includes a part where they lose the ability to eat, their mouths become suckers for locomotion, and the adult doesn't feed, so no pathogen transmission. Also, they apparently also don't carry or transmit many diseases red worms do, effectively making them a barrier to pathogen transmission in a system that combines both. And red worms readily process BSFL leavings.

-CK

Interesting! I've only read a little about BSFs, mostly around breeding them for feed for chickens, aquaculture, etc. Definitely bears more research. Thanks Chris!

I would fire up the saw mill and mill up everything you need other than the tin roofing, nails, hinges, and windows. The interior cavity could be finished with a bit of clay straw insulation and then an earth stucco wall for thermal mass. With the windows high and to the south the north stucco wall wouldn't heat up when the sun is high in the summer.

Here's a rough draft I came up with this morning. It's got a ways to go but it's always better to get feedback early on. If you build the model too far along before getting feedback and then have to change something basic you end up having to redo a lot of your work.

I also think it would be cool to have rain water collection into a 55G drum that could be used for hand washing. The sink and tank could be inside or out, depending on how big you want the outhouse to be. I would keep it small so it's easy to move, but I guess when you have a 13 ton excavator nothing is that hard to move!

Zach,

I think we might start construction on the pooper tomorrow.

We have not yet fired up the sawmill. Come on out and you can be the first. My only concern is that the wood needs to dry before use. Unless, of course, you have awesome green woodworking skills. Plus, while we now have the generator for the sawmill - I would really prefer to have Caleb's battery cart ready for action.

You have the door at the end .... you like that better than the door going in at the side like Jesse did?

I very much like the idea of collecting the water and using it for the washing of the hands. I think that will be an add-on for later.

The excavator is not going to be much help in moving things. It struggles to move itself. The new electric golf cart should be better at moving things. But we'll see when it gets here.

Bill Kearns wrote:
Two steps up, with sideboards for reading material or laptops. Full length mirror, drawers, cupboard, and conveniently located sink.

Storage and fold-down access for three "cans", gravity-fed water catchment tank, and detachable step for moving the bivy.

Nice Bill!

That does look rather throne-ly.

I especially like the water catchment.

My only criticism is that leg placement "while working" might feel slightly restricted.

Do you take your laptop in? I guess I'm more of a get-in-and-get-out sorta guy.

paul wheaton wrote:... There will also be some sort of cob-like mass to hold heat through the night.

I worry about what this mass will be doing when the cold night is done and you are out for your morning constitutional. Mass will of course store cold as well as heat, so it is quite likely to be working against you during the early part of most days after the air has started to warm. If you are going to build this element in, make some provision for easy removal in case it doesn't work as you hope.

I would just cut the bottom out of the plastic garbage can and have it extend into a hole the size of the bottom of the container. When the hole fills up dig a new one beside the house lift the seat platform so that the can clears the ground and move it over. Use the dirt from the new hole to cover the old one and plant a tree.

Paul Wheaton - If you haven't already I strongly suggest reading the "Humanure Handbook". You should be able to do a search and get a pdf version. We have been using his system for years for both indoor and outdoor toilets. Absolutely no odour issues, rapid hot composting of waste, no flies etc...

I suspect that it will end up influencing your design choices a fair bit!

Use a smaller bucket - you want to be able to move and empty them easily

Use a carbon based cover material - poop is rich in nitrogen, adding lots of carbon gives a very hot pathogen killing compost heap

Don't separate urine and poop - the water and urea help the composting go like a bomb

We use fine sawdust which we pick up in cubic meter bags from a local timber yard (sweet chestnut coppice) - no chemicals/treated wood. The buckets get emptied into our main household compost heap, get really hot quickly and break down to a dark crumbly compost texture within a couple of weeks (we usually let everything sit and finish for 6 months or so before using).

For people who run courses etc... we have used this system for groups of 40+ school pupils camping for a week with no complaints. Far more appealing than chemical loos etc... Plus we then get to take home bucket loads of fantastic compost.

Hans Quistorff wrote:I would just cut the bottom out of the plastic garbage can and have it extend into a hole the size of the bottom of the container. When the hole fills up dig a new one beside the house lift the seat platform so that the can clears the ground and move it over. Use the dirt from the new hole to cover the old one and plant a tree.

Hans, please check out my extensive writings and podcasts on dry outhouses.

Michael Cox wrote:Paul Wheaton - If you haven't already I strongly suggest reading the "Humanure Handbook". You should be able to do a search and get a pdf version. We have been using his system for years for both indoor and outdoor toilets. Absolutely no odour issues, rapid hot composting of waste, no flies etc...

I suspect that it will end up influencing your design choices a fair bit!

Michael, please check out my extensive writings and podcasts about the humanure book. There are a lot of things in the book that I don't agree with.

It seems there are a few items Paul really wants to include in this first pooper attempt. After spending a fair bit of time kicking it around with him, I'd say the reasons are many and based on years and years of experience, research, and legal stuff among other things.

1) Absolutely no poop touches anything but the inside of a trash can and other poop for a solid 2 years.

2) The pooper can be dragged around.

3) Pee diversion.

4) Smelly stuff is siphoned out as quickly and efficiently as possible in all seasons and during the day and night.

5) Big broad roof so no paint has to be used.

6) Spacious.

7) For more of the inside scoop on poop, there's probably no substitute for showing up in person and enjoying some face time with the Duke himself. Turns out talking poopers can be enjoyable.

Paul seems to have a better grasp on industrial-scale poopers than anyone else.

There are things that are perfectly safe (if procedure followed EXACTLY) for a single family that are ticking time-bombs in a large group, and/or frequent stranger visitor scenarios. Other things are a little dodgey even for the single use family, and lots of them are icky in the middle of the process.

This could be a great model for lots of off-grid group sites could use--whether they are permie farms or U-pick CSAs or private glamping resorts. Death to the smurf juice boxes!

My insight/observation is to use a double roof (kind of like a warre hive) to help with heat gain in the summer.

R Scott wrote:My insight/observation is to use a double roof (kind of like a warre hive) to help with heat gain in the summer.

What would that look like?

Adrien Lapointe wrote:

R Scott wrote:My insight/observation is to use a double roof (kind of like a warre hive) to help with heat gain in the summer.

What would that look like?

Like a Warre Hive

I don't have sketchup and can't run it if I did, but I will try to do a simple picture tomorrow (when on a real computer) and post it up. Maybe hack one of the excellent drawings already posted with paint.

Here is a can that I think might work for your model use. It was pulled from the Sketchup 3d warehouse and modified to meet the height you specified. Good Luck

Try this. Pretty simple, inner roof doesn't need to be waterproof but should be breathable but draft-proof, if that makes sense.

the crap site
The Waterless Composting Toilet very interesting information with some history

Some details of construction worth paying close attention to:

1) The vertical corner posts should be 4x4's or doubled 2x4's or whatever rough sawn equivalent you decide. This roof could potentially see a significant snow load and the supports should be stout enough to handle a worst-case scenario.
2) The cross beams the rafters rest on should be larger than 2x4's (as represented in most sketches) for the same reason.
3) Due to the above, a larger angle on the roof would be better, to shed the snow more readily. It might be worth considering having the slope go from one side to the other instead of front to back, to prevent a large snow buildup behind the outhouse where the bin access is. Even in winter emptying the bin will still be occasionally necessary, and especially if we use a urine diversion model. The urine container will need emptied much more often than the main poo receptacle. Either that or the bin access should be on the side.
4) Some sort of fabricated ledge that the bin can slide into (up against the underside of the planking the hole is on) will help seal the container area better as a barrier to flies and smells.
5) There's also the issue of keeping the urine diversion receptacle from becoming a big old ice block.

(edited for brevity)

Hey Paul,

Tom's design looks great. I don't have Sketch Up, but have a few ideas to share. If the logs on the bottom are a little longer in the front or back, and beveled a bit, they will make great skids for moving this with a tractor -- or a set of wheels for human push/pull power... Side walls can be made of slabs cut from a bandsaw mill either brought to the site to process trees into lumber, or obtained from a local sawyer, and vertical posts can be either sawn or round softwood logs. Around here, you can get entire trailer loads of "slab wood" that are sliced from logs to get down to the good stuff for somewhere between free and really cheap (includes lots of bark and usually odd shapes), but these would work fine for siding a portable pooper. If using round logs, I'd strip the bark off while still wet/green, so they don't shed bark bits and bugs all over your interior.

If you build a "Loveable Loo" sawdust bucket toilet a la Joseph Jenkins in The Humanure Handbook (great info, photos, designs, and download found here: http://humanurehandbook.com/), you won't need a vent pipe, you'd be able to cover all "deposits" with shavings and sawdust from chain saw work on the land, and there would be no appreciable smell. We use this toilet system in our straw bale home in Vermont, and the Loo is only about 5' from the bedroom door, and there are no odor issues once the big job is done and all deposits are covered.

The Joe Jenkins Loveable Loo really needs a fixed composting bin into which the 5 gallon buckets are emptied, and J.J. himself recommends a 3-bin system which he calls the "Humanure Hacienda" -- gotta love those names! I don't know squat (pun intended) about your local bears, but my guess is that if they want to engage in some Humanure Hijinks, they might prefer the big 4' x 4' outdoor bin to your movable loo. When all deposits are adequately covered with dry material (straw, sawdust, dried grass and weeds from a few minutes with a sythe, etc... ), there is no odor issue as the "deposits" are converted into "black gold" compost. (I think a banking theme is starting to evolve here...). We've never had any critter issues with our compost bins, which we just cover with straw, grass and dried leaves. In areas where animals DO want to play, a small piece of wire fencing can be placed on top of the pile. I've seen toads, one Garter Snake, and a few spiders in our bins, and a few mouse tracks in winter, but that's it (and we do have an active Black Bear population on our land).

Building these structures makes a great project for enthusiastic homesteaders and interns, too. Couple of hours making the Loo, and a day or two building the Humanure Hacienda. We made our Loveable Loo a little fancy, with storage for 2 additional buckets below the seat, and an adjacent cabinet for 2 more buckets. We usually only empty the buckets when we have 4 full ones, but we sometimes get lazy and use all 5, especially in winter when it may not be so much fun to shovel a path to the Humanure Hacienda. Even the poop-filled buckets don't create an odor issue when the top goes back on. In fact -- the urine is a MUCH bigger odor concern than the poop.

The Jenkins system works great, and after composting is completed, you have valuable nutrients to add to your soils -- like getting interest at the bank, only better.

Paul, perhaps too late on this first job, but maybe a future outhouse could have the user squatting on a surface level or near level with the hole over the can. This "squatty potty" design honors the way humans are built and leads to much improved evacuation for users - there are health benefits to that. It's different, but I'll bet those who try it will never go back to the 90-degree stance. Perfect for get-in-get-out types.