Hi y'all-
It's been a while, and I'm excited to be back and building again. The new context of living deep in the forest of Southern Appalachia offers new challenges and unimagined opportunities. Here we go!
What's interesting about this context?
-80 inches of rain per year with no dry season
-A forest biome that goes dormant in the winter, and then explodes into tropical rainforest level life in the summertime.
-Limited sunshine, from the trees and the clouds and the valley.
-Moderate average temperatures. Huge swings in seasonal humidity.
-Nearly limitless wood for building, burning, berming, hugelkulturing, mushrooming, etc.
-I'm a family of five, with three strong smart motivated teenagers to help/lead/inspire. It's not dad and the kids anymore. It's a crew.
About to build a small family home. Lots could be said, but it's looking like a 20x30 footprint. Earth-berm, two stories. Earthen Floor. 2x8 Stud Walls with Cellulose insulation. Geothermal air tubes with ventilated attic to draw cool(er) and dry(er) air into house during summer. Big eaves and big windows. See attached drawing for the scheme of things.
And a super sweet rocket cookstove for heat in the winter. That's where this thread wants to head. In the direction of designing the dream stove that is going to be at the center of this home.
Here's what I'm hoping to accomplish, not really knowing much about rocket stove design-
1) A glass cooktop for conventional cooking on wood heat
2) A decent size firebox so I can burn larger chunks of wood and not little sticks
3) Ability to heat a tank of water for bathing
4) 48" x 48" footprint, standard chimney through the roof
5) something I can build myself in a resourceful and economical way
6) ability to cook without pumping an enormous amount of heat into the house
7) there's going to be a gas stove as well, so this doesn't need to do all the cooking. in summer i'll be cooking outside entirely.
So far, I'd say the stoves Matt Walker is demonstrating are the most exciting to me.
Excited to get a big group think going on for this project. This is going to be epic.
Happy to see this here getting attention!
I've been wondering for years about a simple system to build flowforms, but haven't seen a prototype I could replicate.
The best ones I've seen came from cut and heat-molded PVC pipe fittings.
Let's get this figured out Permies! I'm excited to collaborate with y'all.
I didn’t see a stripe option.
Just PayPal and crypto.
I tried to pay with PayPal but it asked me to login to permites before completing.
Hope that helps-
I lived right near Montrose, CO for years. I never once heard of anyone growing this varietal commercially. I have grown it, the flavor is mediocre. It is typical but not exceptional for cold and drought hardiness. It's just a pretty standard apricot. I honestly think the varietal is a bit of a gimmick.
I would go with Goldrich for fruit. It's a superior varietal for Zone 5/6/7.
FWIW, I've had lots of apricots with sweet pits over the years. I don't think it's either as rare or as stable of a trait as books might seem to suggest.
In Traditional Chinese Medicine, bitter apricot pit is called Xing Ren, and is a commonly used medicinal herb. It's bitter, and used in medicinal-size quantities. I ate a few with some white chocolate the other night and it's a nice combo.
Traditional Chinese Medicine also does not have any concept of a sweet pit apricot (never seen it mentioned in any TCM nutritional text), so that's a bit of a head scratcher on origins of the 'Chinese' named cultivar and its association with being 'sweet pit'.
Yes Jackie, I understand the setup you're describing. It sounds like a great system for summer months, but I would be concerned about it in the shoulder seasons. Especially when raising a large batch of birds, the 'cost' of error/failure is compounded so much.
As an 'insurance policy' I'd like to be able to somehow incorporate backup BTUs from a propane canister into my brooder design. I've used the simple lightbulb box brooders, and variations on the system you describe with wool fleeces as a ceiling, but I'm thinking my present needs require something a little different.
Cold and damp is the weather concern, so an external heat source would do a lot of good in mitigating the chilling effects of cold damp mountain air.
That's where the trickiness begins. The Little Buddy puts out more than enough BTUs, at an economical enough rate of fuel consumption. It's just a matter of containing the heat without blowing up the heater 😜
Hi y'all-
Years ago I had this amazing catalog from an old school 'Seedsman'. I believe that may have even been in the name of the company.
Now I can't find the catalog and am fortunately in a position to try my hand at landscape scale replanting of Eastern deciduous forest. I'd like to buy pounds of ash, oak, hickory, basswood, etc.
Does anyone know the company I'm talking about? I remember a little 6x11 pamphlet-style catalog.
Well this thread kinda confirms the general lack of amazingness with BSFL, or so it seems.
I made some contact with the Ag Dept. at Warren Wilson College, and am going to get a tour of their facility. The faculty rep said there's nothing happening now in the cold of winter, but that they have a seasonal setup.
Has anybody here made the Black Soldier Fly Larvae production into a viable part of their farm systems?
I know there was a bunch of excitement about them about a decade ago, but it seems like the enthusiasm has withered.
I was over talking with my neighbor today about his setup, which looks great, but somehow isn't producing the really worthwhile yields that some growers in Africa have accomplished, apparently. He's feeding them free spent brewers grain.
So I'm reaching out. What's the verdict? BSFL a bust? Or do we just need to get that last piece dialed a little more....
Thekla McDaniels wrote:Thanks for this great thread.
I've been contemplating getting a small cow. I had heard of Dexters and did not know there were small Jerseys. I only have 2 acres, and possibly when I get the pasture developed, I will begin to look for a Dexter Jersey cross. Any recommendations where to look for her?
Karen and Adi VanGotherd (sp?) in Paonia have been crossing Dexters and Jerseys for a few years. I don't know the specifics of their operation, but they brought Dexters into Paonia and would be a good resource to talk to.
Kirk Schonfeldt wrote:I agree modern "mini-cows" (cuz they look cute) are gimmicky, pricey and not bred for production. However, you do (or CAN) get better feed-conversion with a smaller animal, more milk and meat for the same amount of forage. Mini (aka Island) Jersey cows are the original Jersey cows and though they produce less volume their milk is richer yet than modern American Jerseys. I've also read of a mini- or micro-cow developed in the last couple decades in Mexico and Latin America for home milk production (from zebu genetics). I think smaller livestock in general is a good direction to head for a post-industrial future, but getting quality, affordable genetics is a long way off and will require a concerted breeding effort of networked small producers. One day perhaps.
I agree completely Kirk. Huge potential, but not there yet. Great post.
The only way larger animals are superior is for efficiency of dairy management and beef slaughter. Simply fewer udders to milk and care for per hundred pounds of butter. Fewer carcasses for a ton of beef.
Other than that, smaller cows would be my ideal for permaculture cows.
I would pass on the buffalo. The fencing needs are extreme. The handling dangers are significant. To me, the risk outweighs the rewards in a cost/benefit analysis.
I dream of one day being a water buffalo dairyman. That's another bad idea for another dreamy day.....
Dexters are an awesome breed. 'Mini cows' on the other hand, are a gimmick.
I like Dexters a lot for homesteads, there is nothing bad you can say about the breed. If you plan to milk them, be sure to look for milking genetics, as a lot of Dexters have been used just for beef and have lost their dairy quality.
Mini cows are great for the breeder, who sells them for a small fortune. For the homesteader, I am skeptical that they have the constitution to be reliably productive permaculture cows. All the breeding programs I am aware of are raising mini cows under very un-permacultural systems. Making the transition from conventional management to pasture-based management is a big ask for any cow. It is a super big ask for a cow that has been bred so far from its original form. Don't believe the hype, the unrealistic 'efficiency' numbers, etc.
THANK YOU!!! Cassie and Paul! Tons of folks have purchased books this week, so glad to be doing this promotion.
And just a reminder that I am happy to offer free phone consultations to anyone who helps promote my book in any way, such as amazon reviews, facebook shares, etc. I'm serious, and a handful of folks have gotten personal phone calls to talk cows. If you're interested, just send me a PM.
There is a German saying, something along the lines of "half the milk comes from the brushing". I believe that lactation is a highly emotional process for cows, as it is for humans. Showing the cow some love during milking definitely increases their desire to give more milk to the farmer.
Cows are sacred beings, ask the hindus that have been around cows for millennia.
Yes, animals have feelings. Yes, treating them well has positive effects.
Clay is a challenge, for sure. From my experience, I would say that if you seal over the surface of the soil with the bricks, you will create a predominantly anaerobic soil environment, with disastrous consequences.
The biggest challenge with clay is maintaining the water/air balance in the soil. The rotting wood will help to create air space in the soil, but too much air is worse than too little, if you can believe that.
Maintaining healthy capillary channels in the soil is the most important task with clay soil. The soil needs to be able to breathe, literally.
Juniper Zen wrote:Adam, thanks for the details. What is the purpose of the egg soak?
The egg step is analogous to braining. Eggs are a perfectly comparable replacement to using animal brains in the tanning process. And they are much, much easier to obtain and cleaner to use. The fats from the brains/eggs are a key part in the brain tan method, making the hide supple.
Here is the basic steps I have used for tanning rabbit furs-
-use a fresh hide, not a dried hide. much easier and better end result.
-scrape the fat off the hide. no need to worry about the membrane just yet, only get the fat off. very minimal process in this step.
-salt the flesh side of the hide heavily. let rest overnight, but not dry out.
-scrape any remaining flesh off. the salt will contract this fleshy material and it will peel off quite easily. dont worry about the membrane yet.
-soak the hide in an alum (like you use for pickling) solution for a day or two. a few tablespoons of alum in a gallon of water, roughly. this locks in the hair so it doesnt slip and fall out later in the process.
-wash thoroughly with soapy water to get rid of all alum residue.
-let hide dry out just enough that the surface of the hide feels dry, but there is still moisture deep in the skin.
-scrape aggressively with a rough pumice stone to remove the membrane. *this is the critical step*. with a dry skin surface and a pumice stone, the membrane will flake off quite easily, like exfoliating dead skin on your feet.
-whip a few eggs, and apply generously to the skin side of the hide. fold hide in half, skin to skin. wrap hide in warm moist towels. let sit for a day. apply more eggs if they are totally absorbed into the skin. stretch the hide a bit to encourage the eggs to absorb.
-freeze hide with egg mixture in a plastic bag in the freezer overnight.
-remove from freezer, and 'work' hide to soften as it thaws and dries out. *now is the time to really pay attention to the hide* as it dries a little, stretch the hide to keep the skin supple. this step is ongoing, where you will work the hide, then let it dry, then work some more as soon as the surface starts to feel dry to the touch. be firm but gentle, you dont want to tear the hide, it isnt a deerskin. alternating stretching in different directions with your hands, and stretching the hide over a blunt piece of wood works well. if you have to take a break, put the hide in a plastic bag in the fridge so it doesnt dry out without you working it. the key is breaking up the connective tissues as the hide dries out, so that it remains soft and smooth.
-keep working it until the skin side of the hide feels warm to the touch. if it feels cool, it still has moisture, and will become stiff if it dries without working it. as it dries completely, give it a last buffing with a pumice stone, preferably not too rough of a stone at this stage.
Hopefully that makes sense, the process has lots of little steps, but in total it isn't too much time or effort. The result is supple, warm, and beautiful. I think there would definitely be a market for value added mittens or slippers. My little one still snuggles with his 'fuzzy bunny' that I tanned him as a baby.
It's gonna be difficult to get good germination with thyme in a broadcast context. Really small seeds that need to be pushed into the soil surface and kept moist. Definitely better to germinate in flats.
Propagating by root divisions would nearly guarantee transplant success. But that is a lot of plants. Maybe start with a small area and gradually expand? That's what I would do.
But really, why replace one monoculture with another? Grass is the natural skin of the Earth. It gets a lot of unfair criticism. Maybe in a dry Mediterranean climate I could see the preference for thyme over grass, if water conservation is key. But in most climates, grass is going to grow far better than thyme. I am forever weeding grass out of my thyme patch!
Biodiversity for the win! Plant a lovely polyculture, just like nature does!
I own one, and it is fantastic in every way. I use it to grind cabbage for saurkraut, in addition to making apple, pear, and grape juice.
Only drawback is that they are so popular that you may have to wait a few months to get one. Nevertheless, great product.
After a decade building and running Bella Farm in Paonia, Co., life's events has me and the family moving to Ojai. I am very excited by the possibilities living and farming in a warm winter climate!
I am looking for a farm, new or established, that could benefit from my skills and knowledge. I have professional income, and so do not need to earn money from the farm. I would like to receive housing and farm food in exchange for my labor. I come as a family, with my partner and 3 kids. The kids are 7,9, and 10, were born and homeschooled on my farm, and can out work most adults. They are awesome.
My skills include everything I learned building an off-grid homestead, market garden, and micro raw dairy. With my wife, we converted an abandoned apple orchard into a diversified commercial farm. We raised a market garden and greenhouses, dairy cows, meat from pigs, chickens, ducks, turkeys, and rabbits, a fruit orchard of apricot and peach, perennial medicinal herb gardens, and natural cultivation of shiitake mushrooms. I designed and built a complete farm water system, including pond, gravity pressurized sprinklers, storage cisterns, and treated drinking water. I designed and installed an off-grid solar system that powered my cabin and all farm operations. I built a cabin, two barns, two greenhouses, and an apartment on the farm. I love everything about homesteading and small farms.
I believe that me and my family would be a huge asset to the right land owner or small farmer. I will be visiting Ojai in mid-October, and would love to meet anybody interested in permaculture in the area.
I hear ya Kevin. I would say though that if you don't like what you're doing, then do it different!
Reading through all your posts, it seems that you are frustrated with your present system, and looking for some modifications that would improve your quality of life as a farmer. That is commendable. I think though that you might need to be more open-minded to making changes to your system. It seems like you are not happy with the present situation, but are highly reluctant to make changes to it.
The answer is not easy, but it sounds like your situation is not sustainable on a personal level, working too much for too little pay. I feel you, believe me. I have no ego in this, but I honestly wrote the book I did to help people find a viable and sustainable way to manage dairy cows on small farms. Take it for what it's worth. I hope you find a way forward that works for you, your cows, your land, and most importantly your family.
John Saltveit wrote:I've done it once, and it helped. Here is what I did. 1/3 clay. 1/3 organic (biodynamic) cow manure. 1/3 mixture of coarse sand and diotomaceous earth. I added a little ag lime in it, because I had some extra around. Some people get into all kinds of extra things, but the 1/3,1/3,1/3 is the original Rudolf Steiner recipe, I have heard.
I also use compost tea, and that helps a lot as well.
John S
PDX OR
I like this recipe a lot. Two things I would add are a unit of BD barrel compost, and to use fermented horsetail tea as the liquid to get your consistency right.
Compost tea works wonders on bark health, and the entire circulatory system of the tree as a result. Easily the best cost/benefit thing to do in the orchard.
Kevin MacBearach wrote:
I think what you're proposing is a way of keeping dairy cows that's only for family use. So apples and oranges.
I dont think that is at all a fair assessment of how Kelly manages his cows. There are a lot of ways to run a commercial (as in makes profit for owner) dairy. I operated a 100% grass fed micro dairy for a decade, making money the whole time.
It seems like you have a system that works for you, and that you are committed to. Thats great! But it is not the only way to run a commercial dairy, and I think that folks like Kelly sharing their experience should not be ridiculed.
There are a lot of ways to farm smart, and we should work together to learn from one another, rather than to argue our differences.
And again, I must restate, 100% grass fed micro dairy IS profitable!
Wes Hunter wrote:
They are perfectly happy without the oats, but I continue to use them because they pass through the gut whole (making me wonder if they're having much acidifying effect) and they encourage the chickens to scratch the patties apart, spreading them around and presumably reducing the fly population. They often defecate as they walk out of the barn after milking, and the hens are all over it as soon as it hits the ground. Maybe they'd still scratch and spread the manure around even without the oats; I haven't tried it long enough to see. In short, I consider the oats chicken feed more than cow feed; the cow is just the carrier. All said, I'd guess the cows get about half a cup of oats per milking. Regardless, I'm not opposed to eliminating them, so long as the chickens would continue their work on the cow patties.
I like your thinking Wes. At the incredibly small quantities you describe, I too question how much of an impact on rumen biology it would actually create. I would say it creates 'some' effect, not zero. Is that enough to 'matter', I don't know.
My experience with hens around the dairy barn is that they love scratching up cow manure regardless. I don't think they need to be incentivized too much.
I think it is important that we all keep experimenting and never become dogmatic. So I really like your line of thinking and experimentation. Nothing says good farming like happy productive cows, so good job!
Where does one go about finding dried nettle? Grow it yourself? Or is there a commercially-available source?
I wild harvest it if it is abundant, grow it on the farm as possible, and otherwise it can be purchased from Frontier Organics in bulk. Definitely more expensive pound-for-pound than alfalfa hay, but certainly worth a lot more.
Juliette de Bariclay-Levy (sp?) is a huge advocate of feeding dried nettles to livestock. Considering how much it benefits pregnant women, it must be good for dairy cows.
Kittum Daniel wrote:I do grass feed beef but I have no idea how well grass feed dairy would do. I would like to see you results because yo may be on to something.
Grass fed dairy works great! My girls, Brown Swiss, haven't had any grain in 8 years and are perfectly fertile, highly productive, and absolutely beautiful. You can check out my book for all the details, linked in my signature.
I like to wean at 3-4 months of age, so your 9 month old is good to go. My experience is that I have to keep the calves completely separated from their momma until the momma has a new calf. The urge to resume nursing is simply too strong. I think that at the age you are dealing with it has more to do with emotional needs than nutritional ones, but nevertheless, that calf is pretty likely to resume nursing if given a chance.
For your milking ration, why not stop feeding grain entirely? Even the small amount of grain is having an acidifying effect on the rumen, which changes the gut bacteria in a negative way for the cow's systemic health. If you need something in the milk stanchion, I would recommend a mix of Alfalfa Pellets (50%), Redmond Real Salt (20%), Dried Kelp (20%), and Dried Nettle (10%). These are all super mineral rich supplements for your cow. She will expect her grain at first, but will quickly adjust to the new mix. It is much healthier for the cow than feeding grain of any type.
Kelly Smith wrote:
one small piece of advice i can give is - not try to start the perfect system from the get go.
get animals and start doing what you think is right - observe and adjust.
i have learned that a lot of the suggestions from a lot of the big name grazers do not work in my area - so i have had to modify their ideas and mine to make things fit.
This is the nugget of gold right here. Don't intellectualize farming, please! It is an art and a craft, and is best leaned by trying earnestly and observing critically.
Farming is the greatest adventure on Earth! Enjoy every moment of it!
Micheal, I would say that if you just take the existing cows off of grain and onto 100% grassfed, about half of the animals will adapt to the change, and the other half will be culls due to loss of fertility. You can purchase grassfed animals and get a much higher rate of success, but you have to compare the cost/benefit of the two scenarios.
You are right that the pastures will rebound quickly with good management. Read Quality Pasture by Alan Nation and Management Intensive Grazing by Jim Gerrish, both will answer all of your questions and more.
The best way to address mineral deficiency issues is to take a soil sample to know what is lacking, and then give your cows access to a free choice mineral feeder. It is much easier and cheaper to give the minerals to the cows, and let them spread it onto the pastures through their manure, than to try to mineralize the pastures directly and hope that the cows get enough.
You are right that the marketing will be easy. Good grassed beef sells itself. Just be sure to produce good beef, which requires adapted genetics and top quality pasture. You might want to raise stockers for a couple years just to improve your pastures to beef finishing quality. The above books will talk in detail about the specific pasture requirements for finishing quality beef.
good luck, you are about to embark on a wonderful adventure-
Adam
I agree with Joseph's thoughts on this, well said.
The only thing I will add is that if that is the condition of the pasture now, it will be a long road of pasture building to be able to support a Jersey cow someday.
The best approach is to work up through less nutrient-demanding classes of livestock, starting with goats, then sheep, then beef cattle. Once a given class of livestock is thriving, then next year, move on to the next. Dairy cows have unbelievable nutritional needs, and trying to raise them on anything less than excellent quality pasture usually ends in fertility and health problems. Slow and steady wins the race!
Here's my thoughts on your questions-
1) Dual purpose breeds are much more resilient. Avoid Jerseys and Holsteins, they are too frail for permacultural pastured dairy.
It is really hard to know how many animals without knowing your pasture productivity. On my farm, I can comfortably graze one cow per acre on excellent quality irrigated pasture. On non-irrigated pasture on my farm, I could not support even one cow that is being milked.
2) I recommend 100% pasture feeding. Hay is fine too. No grains, ever. It messes with the pH of the cow's rumen, decreasing milk quality and causing acidosis of the blood which makes the cow susceptible to many ailments. Grass fed for the win, every time. Cows are ruminant grazers, meant to eat plants not seeds.
3) California is a fascist state with its food policy. Selling raw milk legally is a challenge, though I do not personally know the details. Look up the Campaign for Real Milk by the Weston A Price Foundation on their website realmilk.com That should get you the info you need. As always, it is easier to operate under the table if you are truly micro in scale.
4) I leave cow and calf together 24 hours a day for the first week. Then I separate the pair in the evening, milk the following morning, and reunite the pair after milking is over. After 3 months, I wean completely. Works great.
Sheep will really effectively mow down any forage into a putting green, given enough time. They prefer the young tender shoots, but will not hesitate to eat down big, coarse grasses going to seed.
I have never heard good things about tethering sheep. Like goats, they will tangle and strangle.
Sheep would cooperate fine with any poultry. Whichever you like.
I have never given sheep a shelter. So long as the breed is adapted for your area, one of the great things about sheep is how hardy they are to the elements.
Great idea, using animals instead of machinery or sweat equity. Let us know how it goes! good luck!
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