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2020 summer garden plan

Posts: 2
Location: Sao Paulo - Brazil
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Hello Permies,

I'm working on my first garden so ever, already read some Permaculture books and I'm going to try this summer to build a garden with some fruit trees.
The area that I'm working in is 15x5m with a little slope, good drainage, plenty of water and I have some big trees near that make some shade in the winter(Brazil here, Sao Paulo). I will use gravel and wood chips, there already some plants there, like garlic, papaya, cabbages, and chives all around.

My concern is if space is enough for trees or would I need to go over the *fence*, if you see the pictures I have more space after a fence, I could move it.

In attach my plan, please take a look and let me know what you guys think.

PS: Added more photos to give an idea of the place.

Best Regards,

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garden plan
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Location: Southern Illinois
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Hello and welcome to Permies!!  Congratulations on starting off in a Permies fashion right from the start.

So I am a bit confused.  When I look at your garden plan, I immediately think that you will need more space what with all those trees.  But your pictures look absolutely beautiful.  I guess my suggestion would be to plant your veggies over the fence since you have the room.  I would consider planting your trees and if you want to plant veggies near them now, you probably could, but I would think that in a short amount of time those trees will shade out the veggies.

I may have read this wrong, but as of now, I would go over the fence for veggies.  At the very least I would consider preparing ground ASAP.

Great job thus far.

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Location: Basque Country, Spain-43N lat-Köppen Cfb-Zone8b-1035mm/41" rain: 118mm/5" Dec., 48mm/2" July
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Bemvindo, Danilo, to permies!

I think a lot of what we could say about your garden plan is influenced by climate, and it seems like there is a lot of climate diversity in São Paulo state:


Any idea which of the climate zones you're in? You can read more about Köppen climate classification here if you want.

When placing trees, I would be very mindful of the shade they create. São Paulo is about 23° south latitude, so just at the edge of the tropics, so at the height of summer the sun will be straight overhead and the rest of the year it will be to the north. So I would generally try to place trees on the south side of your property and grow vegetables on the north side.

What are the weather conditions where you are that cause problems in the garden? Sun too strong in the summer? Periods of very heavy rains and floods? Excessive heat? A very long and dry dry season? What natural disasters are there in your area? Those are good to keep in mind when designing.

Shade can also be helpful in the tropics. Sometimes high shade from a stand of trees like palms can shelter more tender plants underneath them from the strong midday sun while allowing morning and evening sun from the sides. So that might call for a different design than what I was saying before.

Do take into account the final height and canopy diameter of your trees and allow for that in your design. The Plants for a Future database is a good place to research that, even if they do have a lot more temperate plants than tropical in their database. As Eric said above, you don't want the trees to crowd each other out or shade out your veggies (unless you need shade, of course, it all depends!)

It might also be really helpful if you could indicate the compass points on your map, and also which way the downward slope goes. And let us know some more about your climate. This will help other people make useful comments for you.

Congratulations on a beautiful piece of land - I'm sure you'll do great things with it!

Danilo Chilene
Posts: 2
Location: Sao Paulo - Brazil
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Hi Eric and Dave,

Thanks for the support and information.

Yeah, trees would def shade the veggies in the future, I think I can separate one side of the fence veggies and another for trees.
About the climate zone here is CFB, the sun is very strong in the summer, we got some heavy rains but they don't cause a lot of damage. Not very long dry season and we don't have water issues, we have plenty. The slope goes from south to north.

I think maybe two trees with the veggies and the rest over the other side of the fence to not cast too much shade.

Did Steve tell you that? Fuh - Steve. Just look at this tiny ad:
Devious Experiments for a Truly Passive Greenhouse!
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