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William Schlegel

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Location: Montana

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I thought I would start a thread about my garden.

I've been growing things most of my life. I am a seed collector/botanist and have kind of casually been vegetable breeding for a long time but that has intensified the last three years since I decided to send Joseph Lofthouse a roll of sliver dimes in 2017.

Here are a few recent pictures.

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Western Montana gardener and botanist in zone 6a according to 2012 zone update.
Gardening on lakebed sediments with 7 inch silty clay loam topsoil, 7 inch clay accumulation layer underneath, have added sand in places.

William Schlegel

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Did some seeding today.

I direct seeded some of the seed I saved from some Big Hill x W4 last year which is in G2 (Generation 2) this year. Last year all thirteen plants were small hard green fruits all were obligate outcrossers. This year I expect intense segregation. Beefsteak traits and bicolor traits may come back. Should be interesting to see if it survives the direct seeding process. I am growing it from transplant as well.

I also direct seeded some Big Hill that may have outcrossed some to half and 3/4 wilds.

This is the fourth year in a row I've been intentionally experimenting with direct seeding tomatoes. It's about 20 days till expected last frost. It takes tomato seeds as long as ten days to germinate if conditions are good. Then ten day old seedlings tend to survive a light frost. Though it's more common for them to germinate after the date of expected last frost.

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William Schlegel

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Here are photos of a few seedlings. Mostly of volunteers.

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Garrett Schantz

Posts: 216

Location: Mississippi Zone 8b

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I have a smaller garden, trying out Solanum Peruvianum and Solanum Habrochaites from a few different seed sources this year ( none of them from here unless you count EFN selling "Lofthouse Peruvianum seeds" ). Big Hill seems like a neat cross, kept reading about it on here and other plant forums. I have had white currant tomatoes reseed themselves the past two years now under pine trees at the border of a wooded area, if I direct seed I would probably use them as a basis as when to roughly start seeding. Guessing since I didn't pick a good portion of the tomatoes towards the end that they will return. The Promiscuous Tomato Project seemed interesting to me so I got a bunch of currant tomato varieties / seeds along with tomatoes with different traits and such. I grow Reisetomate because they just seem to grow well and produce a good bit, even if they are odd. Wonder what it's traits would look like on a wild tomato species after a few generations. Also got some Thai Pink Egg tomato seed, apparently it requires a good bit of water, probably considered a good adaptation in Thailand, able to handle a lot of water. Might be fun to mess around crossing things with it.

Nice to see volunteers in your garden, I'm starting to see a bunch too. I think some of my mustard greens crossed judging from early leaves, along with some lettuce that crossed too. A single poppy seems to have sprouted as well. Oh yeah some Sikkim cucumbers that I tossed out in an area reseeded as well. Probably crossed with little potato cucumbers that were pretty much touching it along with some standard types close by (Little Potato and the Sikkim seem to be listed as the same variety, but the little potato seemed to be rounder) . The cucumbers aren't in the garden, but I'm letting them do their thing as an experiment, since the little things survived a few light frosts and some snow so far.

William Schlegel

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Garrett, that Lofthouse Peruvianum at EFN is from Joseph Lofthouse who grows seed and a few other things like sunroot tubers and sometimes he sells it here on Permies. I got it direct from Joseph in 2017 and it does great here. As a plant breeding project its a bit of a difficulty. It seems to be just a little tricky to get it to cross with any other tomatoes. I would like to use plant tissue culture to do embryo rescue on the crosses with domestic tomato but it would be a big project and tricky to do around work and school and my toddler. There is a accession of Solanum chilense that might make a good bridge but its a little tricky to grow and might be best done somewhere like California. Joseph says its been known to take Solanum penellii pollen which is also a tricky species tomato to grow. I've started some though from seed Joseph sent me and my plan is to grow one isolation plot with one S. peruvianum plant and as many S. penellii plants that are still alive at transplanting time. Hopefully it will work but just the nature of things one pocket gopher could take it out.

Interestingly last year Joseph sent me a packet of S. penellii seed from a plant he isolated from other S. penellii plants and surrounded with other species and interspecies hybrids. I got just one plant of it going good last year and it set quite a lot of seed. In theory it should be an obligate out-crosser so it probably got pollen the last two years from other species or interspecies hybrids. I had a lot of penellii x domestic hybrids near it last year. So I have about five little clumps of that- something like one from the remainder of the original packet and four from the G2 seed I grew. I've dubbed it "purish penellii" It looks an awful lot like penellii even in G2 however, it does seem more vigorous. Now if S. peruvianum would take pollen from purish penellii- we might be onto something. Or if purish penellii does turn out to definitively be an interspecies cross, and it adapts better to my climate than pure penellii it may replace peruvianum in my long term tomato breeding plans as it is easier to make crosses with. I suppose there is a small possibility it is a selfing strain of a species known for obligate outcrossing. Which do occur I think I've heard.

Garrett Schantz

Posts: 216

Location: Mississippi Zone 8b

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The C.M. Rick Tomato Genetics Resource Center, has a soil recommendation for S. penneli. Could try that. Might not try for a Peruvianum, still seems interesting. Bought seed from EFN, and etsy seller and another website. All seem to be peruvianum judging from seedlings. Got habrochaites from multiple sources too, one of the sources I got habrochaites from, showed rather huge plant types. Kind of shrub looking. Trying out a bunch of different sources, as I heard that there is a lot of variation even within species. ARS-GRIN seems to have a Peruvianum cross, could try getting that for breeding purposes. Not sure how well it would backcross though. The images for Joseph's Peruvianum that I bought, show tomatoes that are purple, with some white splotches. Another Peruvianum I got had videos on it, purely white for the whole plant's "fruits". Seedlings both the same for both. Hoping I get some genetic variation from all of these. Could be two different species maybe. Will post images of them once I get them outside, maybe start fruiting.

William Schlegel

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When I first got S. Peruvianum from Joseph we had it divided into two species and hybrids. We combined them. Both keyed to Peruvianum. The larger Peruvianum complex has been divided up quite a bit. I have some good Arcanum now. Problem is its not a good bridge, but it's supposed to combine with domestic easier at least.

Which is all why we are mostly working with habrochaites and penellii. We're managing to keep them alive, we've got interspecies hybrids with them and it's mostly just about generations and large population sizes now.

I think there is value in working with more species though, especially if we can share with others. Collectively we have a greater ability to improve tomatoes than if we were working alone.

William Schlegel

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May 15th is the average date of last frost. In 2017 I planted early and some tomatoes got two frosts (most died except for one peruvianum plant). Even the direct seeded tomatoes got frosted that year. The one frost plants mostly froze to the ground but came back.

The last two years no frost flirtation has happened.

So this year I had a flat and a half left to up pot of the G2 BH x W4 from the seed I grew from the thirteen hard green fruited plants from G1. Well today I decided they should flirt with the frost and the cold. Lows predicted mostly in the forties and thirties. A little shift in the weather and a clear morning and they'll probably mostly freeze to the ground. Two nights like that and they'll probably call it a season. Or it may not frost again. The rest of the cohort will get heat at night in the greenhouse till about May 15th.

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William Schlegel

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Got a package in the mail:

Seed from Joseph Lofthouse.

Thank you Joseph.

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Garrett Schantz

Posts: 216

Location: Mississippi Zone 8b

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William Schlegel wrote:Got a package in the mail:

Seed from Joseph Lofthouse.

Thank you Joseph.

88 packets of seed? That is quite a lot.
Ordered from Jandlgardens few days ago, the seeds came in today. Got Muchacha!, Weight in Gold (Trial), L. Hirsutum (S. Habrochaites), L. Glandalosum (S. Corneliomulleri). Also got a "sample" packet, which I am happy with, and planted it as well. Only went in for Weight in Gold (Heard it was pretty early), but Muchacha! had a nice description. Then I saw they had wild tomato types, trying to get wild types from wherever I can online in order to maximize diversity. Last order, might look for more things at the end of the year/season. 40+ seeds from pretty much everything but the sample seed. I need to hurry up and get garden tilled. Saw Big Hill on EFN, along with another tomato called Chariot Tomato, which is a yellow pear cross. I would buy them but, I am done buying seed for now, even though they are both of interest to me. Direct seeded tomatoes seem interesting as well. Might try it out as well, considering I have extra seed for some things.

William Schlegel

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J and L gardens is a really cool outfit. Run by a retired h.s. physics teacher. Though he ran it for many years as a side job.

Weight in Gold is a stable hirsutum cross. As is Wild Child another J and L Gardens tomato.

I'm growing weight in gold, dwarf hirsutum cross, blue ambrosia, and wild child all from J and L gardens this year. Weight in Gold and Wild Child are new to me the other two are repeats. I'm growing the J and L hab crosses to see what J and L came up with from them.

J and L is also a good source of certain wild species stock as you mention.

A G3 population of my own I am growing this year is almost certainly Blue Ambrosia x Amurski Tigr. I'm calling my selection "exserted tigr"

Most domestic tomatoes seem to have retained some ability to be direct seeded. My tricks are plant early and use the large amounts of seed that home seed saving avails us of in a garden seeder. Then I tend to get a large late tomato crop from the direct seeded plants.

Oddly some of the wild species have been difficult direct seeded for me. This probably suggests an ecological mismatch with their germination ecology. Large seed numbers may also help. I have a crazy wild mix from the large amounts of seed I grew last year but them isolation requirements have put a pause on it for me.

Yeah 88 populations is a lot to try to grow. I won't try to grow them all this year. I will grow many though. I have quite a few in addition and some are things of Joseph''s im already growing. For instance he has been my sole source of lentil seed and I already have a second generation of lentils from the 2017 seed I grew planted this year!

I thought Big Hill and Chariot were missing from EFN. I took notes earlier. Perhaps a later batch got added after testing.

I really like the small collection I've made of exserted stigma tomatoes and Big Hill is perhaps the best of those in several important ways.

Garrett Schantz

Posts: 216

Location: Mississippi Zone 8b

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Yeah EFN, also now has Joseph's Fava mix, Lentils - Lofthouse High Carotene Flint Corn and a few others I didn't see before. Wish they had been there when I purchased seed, I would have bought a few more things. If I wait a year, probably will have even more things. Is Big Hill early at all? I could still try and obtain it for breeding purposes, if it would still fruit flower and such.

William Schlegel

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Garrett Schantz wrote:Yeah EFN, also now has Joseph's Fava mix, Lentils - Lofthouse High Carotene Flint Corn and a few others I didn't see before. Wish they had been there when I purchased seed, I would have bought a few more things. If I wait a year, probably will have even more things. Is Big Hill early at all? I could still try and obtain it for breeding purposes, if it would still fruit flower and such.

I see you are in PA zone 6a. I am in MT zone 6a. The difference is rainfall quantity and distribution.

I am pretty sure that since Big Hill is a early determinate I could order it right now, plant it by May 15th or maybe even the first of June. Then I would expect to get not just for breeding purposes but probably a full crop of delicious bicolor smaller beefsteak tomatoes.

I've never been to Pennsylvania but it sure looks green and lush I imagine you get more rain do you have tomato disease problems like I've heard from other folks back further East? I really dont have much tomato disease here. Frost is my tomato killer.

Garrett Schantz

Posts: 216

Location: Mississippi Zone 8b

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William Schlegel wrote:

Garrett Schantz wrote:Yeah EFN, also now has Joseph's Fava mix, Lentils - Lofthouse High Carotene Flint Corn and a few others I didn't see before. Wish they had been there when I purchased seed, I would have bought a few more things. If I wait a year, probably will have even more things. Is Big Hill early at all? I could still try and obtain it for breeding purposes, if it would still fruit flower and such.

I see you are in PA zone 6a. I am in MT zone 6a. The difference is rainfall quantity and distribution.

I am pretty sure that since Big Hill is a early determinate I could order it right now, plant it by May 15th or maybe even the first of June. Then I would expect to get not just for breeding purposes but probably a full crop of delicious bicolor smaller beefsteak tomatoes.

I've never been to Pennsylvania but it sure looks green and lush I imagine you get more rain do you have tomato disease problems like I've heard from other folks back further East? I really dont have much tomato disease here. Frost is my tomato killer.

Yeah, we get a good amount of rainfall. Not a ton, but enough. Still need to water certain plants, like cucumbers and squash. Tomatoes need watered, but not as much. I usually plant tomatoes that do well here, usually by trial and error. Its mostly just late blight where I live. Which by that point, there is about a month of grow time left. Rain also ruins ripe tomatoes, so have to get to them. Disease is bad some years, but most of the time, at least here - it isn't bad.

Garrett Schantz

Posts: 216

Location: Mississippi Zone 8b

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Usually rains a lot right in the beginning of spring, and somewhere towards mid - end of fall. Seems to cause lot of issues.

William Schlegel

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Got one small replicate of my ongoing rice project planted in the greenhouse.

Here also is a photo of the tomato line I have dubbed "purish penellii". The packet from Joseph said that it came from a plant isolated from others of its own species though perhaps some of the interspecies hybrids were there. It seems easier to grow and more vigorous than the pure penellii. Though I am doing better with the pure penellii than usual this year.

Also one of a special BH x W Best Flavor of 2019. May have ancestry from the domestic tomato Joseph calls Fern.

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William Schlegel

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William Schlegel wrote:May 15th is the average date of last frost. In 2017 I planted early and some tomatoes got two frosts (most died except for one peruvianum plant). Even the direct seeded tomatoes got frosted that year. The one frost plants mostly froze to the ground but came back.

The last two years no frost flirtation has happened.

So this year I had a flat and a half left to up pot of the G2 BH x W4 from the seed I grew from the thirteen hard green fruited plants from G1. Well today I decided they should flirt with the frost and the cold. Lows predicted mostly in the forties and thirties. A little shift in the weather and a clear morning and they'll probably mostly freeze to the ground. Two nights like that and they'll probably call it a season. Or it may not frost again. The rest of the cohort will get heat at night in the greenhouse till about May 15th.

Mostly survived their first frost yesterday morning. A few fatalities but most looked fine.

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William Schlegel

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Frost test tomatoes looking scroungier. Still plugging along though. Couple more sketchy nights in the forecast but no deep freeze. If they make it to Friday they might be ok and this should activate some epigenetics. If not we have plenty of replacements in the greenhouse. In the bad spring frosts I frantically empty the greenhouse and bring everyone in for the night. No urge to do that either.

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William Schlegel

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Low of 23 predicted Thursday night. If that happens that means that blossoms will freeze, fruit crops lost, tomatoes in greenhouse not safe, frost trial of tomatoes already planted are gone. Even native flowers will freeze way back.

Garrett Schantz

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William Schlegel wrote:Low of 23 predicted Thursday night. If that happens that means that blossoms will freeze, fruit crops lost, tomatoes in greenhouse not safe, frost trial of tomatoes already planted are gone. Even native flowers will freeze way back.

Had a light freeze yesterday, supposed to snow and get into 30s tonight. Even colder tomorrow I believe. Had a few tomatoes outside as a test in somewhat insulated pots, brought them inside last night. Habrochaites test plants all died. Silvery fir(domestic) survived with no damage. Peruvianum, one survived with no damage. Those wilds were mostly ones that I thinned out of my main starts. Really weird, where I live we don't normally get snow, or temperatures like this in May. Happens every few years I suppose.

William Schlegel

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Yeah, if it really gets to 23 I'll probably be scrapping my frosty tomato test because nothing will remain above ground and any resprouts will be too small to bother with.

It's an interesting concept though. Any year where the last frosts are light modestly frost resistant tomatoes could extend the season by weeks.

William Schlegel

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I love volunteers. The tomatillos are back! Also one lettuce, lots of orach, bees friend phacelia, California poppy, california chia, miners lettuce, austrian winter peas, cilantro, leafy mustard, siberian kale, parsnips, and carrots.

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William Schlegel

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My Burr Oaks have leaves about the size of squirrels ears. So I planted sweet corn today.

Got rototiller back working yesterday. Thanks to the local tire place. I ran through two new tubes and decided go get help. The tubes were not well reviewed on Amazon I notice now.

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William Schlegel

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May 11 2020

Some of you may be familiar with my direct seeded tomato threads. Such as this one: https://permies.com/t/62189/Direct-Seeding-Tomatoes-Frost-Free

The other day I was rototilling to plant some of the corn for my sweet corn seed contract. As I was almost done I saw a tiny clump of familiar cotyledons. So I plucked them up and stuck them into my direct seeded tomato row. I glanced over a few inches and saw a seedling. Direct seeded and volunteer tomatoes, year the fourth.

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William Schlegel

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Spent some time weeding the older beds of volunteering annuals and returning perennials.

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William Schlegel

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Last year Joseph Lofthouse sent me a packet from a penellii plant he grew isolated from other penellii plants but exposed to penellii hybrids and other tomato species. Somehow I managed to grow one clump and because the roots are fragile I only transplanted it as a clump and only one plant from the clump bloomed. It grew with penellii hybrids. Presumably those were the pollen parents. I've been calling it "purish penellii"

One alternate possibility is that they self. I can't completely rule that out yet.

I did plant the remaining original packet.

I also planted some truly pure penellii also from Joseph. It's doing great too.

Thanks to years of Josephs grow outs I would say that Solanum penellii genetics are quickly becoming useable for northern breeders. These plants are quite vigorous without special soil or particularly special care. Other than I do not transplant them roughly.

It also represents a smidgeon of a road not traveled for me because potentially I could do a really huge grow out of these genetics. Why no leaf segregegation yet? Should I simply grow many more plants? Should I just seed a flat thickly to look for leaf segregation?

For now I think I will save my large envelope of 2019 seed. Also save seed from 2020. I'm sure it will be interesting to keep growing this line. Hopefully fruit characters will be variable.

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William Schlegel

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Rainy today.

Today is May 15th which is the average date of last frost.

Planted a few very important tomatoes. Joseph Lofthouse 3/4 domestic 1/4 wild promiscuous tomatoes but from the coolest 2019 plants Joseph grew (mine were hard and green). I had thirteen plants Joseph had a few hundred. Its very much a numbers game. Time, numbers, and generations.

Then spent time in the greenhouse transplanting.

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William Schlegel

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Here is where I put the pure penellii. In a pot with a single Peruvianum. This pot will get to be the only wild tomatoes in the back yard. Hoping the penellii will be the sole pollen source for the Peruvianum. Also should get some penellii seed back from it.

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William Schlegel

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Planted Big Hill and Lofthouse Crookneck Squash in this little tomato isolation garden tonight.

Planted a bigger tomato isolation garden for my contract but phone battery was too low.

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William Schlegel

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First things to bloom will be the first to set seed.

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William Schlegel

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Some seedlings and such.

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William Schlegel

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Well after a brief victory when I got it to start I conceded failure and took my blue rototiller in for a probable point repair. I took the red rototiller in yesterday. This left me only with the corded electric.

So I rototilled with it and planted the exserted Tiger tomatoes G3.

Then in the garden I did rototill whith the blue rototiller when it started yesterday I planted the exserted orange hill tomatoes G3.

That means the major tomato planting is over and there are just some late ones that will need planting later.

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William Schlegel

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Camas patch is doing well. It has camas, balsam root in background, clarkia, corn salad, sun chokes, dill, showy milkweed, and cilantro.

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Third generation since crossed back to Big Hill (but I think 7th generation overall) promiscuous tomatoes are sprouting in my greenhouse. Twenty three of them (edit: more today) so far. Left a big space for these in the fenced garden. They will be a month or more later than the forty G2 tomatoes, but that may give me time to pull the worst of G2 before it has a chance to pollinate G3.

I'm excited by the heightened probability of edibility in these generations!

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Transplanted the one clump of Tarahumara chia I started in a pot out to the land. There is actually a mini row of tiny direct seeded ones right next to it.

Also rougued the contract tomatoes. Tomatoes do cross and there were actually a lot of off types. So I pulled them up and walked them over to my genetically slushy isolation field. If they survive the rough treatment I'll evaluate them for any interesting traits. Likely to be boring reds though.

Also took a photo of this year's row of direct seeded tomatoes. True leaves, moving right along!

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William Schlegel

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Got some rototilling done. Corn seed crop is up.

Found a pretty fava flower.

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William Schlegel

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So this year's direct seeded row of BH x W4 G2 is next to a row of beets. In the beet row are a few clumps of volunteer tomatoes from last year. They are markedly bigger than the direct seeded row from this year.

I suspect this is perhaps partially the effect of having the winter in soil to embibe. Also partially may be genetics. Last year's direct seeded tomatoes were mostly F2 either 50% Blue Ambrosia or 50% Big Hill plus a few half wilds that seemed to contribute minusculely to the population. So this year's volunteers are probably F3 or perhaps G3 and given the semi promiscuous nature of that population might be rehybridizing at a high rate. It could also be their fourth year with direct seeded parents in my garden so the volunteers may have adapted some to this soil and climate. I suspect I'll have a tremendous amount of G3 and G4 BH x W? Seed by this fall. Will probably be direct seeding more of it next year. Will be curious to see what it's capable of after ~4 generations of obligately out crossing and direct seeding. Also the promiscuous tomatoes should pollinate the exserted tomatoes but not vice versa. So if I can find a exserted volunteer near the promiscuous row and save it's seeds a good precentage of those may be hybrids with the promiscuous next year.

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William Schlegel

pollinator

Posts: 677

Location: Montana

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posted 4 years ago

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Rototillers aren't working.

Wheel hoe and eye hoe are.

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William Schlegel

pollinator

Posts: 677

Location: Montana

254

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posted 4 years ago

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I've had bad germination amongst cucurbits so far. Only one melon. At least six Lofthouse crookneck. One tetsukabuto. Lots of lofthouse buttercup. A lofthouse / California Mike moschata did good (thick seeds). However the thin seeded moschata Autumn's choice G2 which should now be complex hybrids of hybrids is not making a good showing. Though I would really like at least one vine of that. More rain commencing.

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