Win a copy of Landrace Gardening this week in the Seeds and Breeding forum!
  • Post Reply Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic
permaculture forums growies critters building homesteading energy monies kitchen purity ungarbage community wilderness fiber arts art permaculture artisans regional education skip experiences global resources cider press projects digital market permies.com pie forums private forums all forums
this forum made possible by our volunteer staff, including ...
master stewards:
  • Anne Miller
  • Nicole Alderman
  • Pearl Sutton
  • r ranson
stewards:
  • paul wheaton
  • Mike Haasl
  • Burra Maluca
master gardeners:
  • Greg Martin
  • jordan barton
  • Carla Burke
  • Leigh Tate
gardeners:
  • Jay Angler
  • John F Dean
  • Steve Thorn

Satoyama: Carp as kitchen assistants

 
Posts: 33
Location: Urban, Zone:6b, Rainfall:49in
8
urban medical herbs ungarbage
  • Likes 4
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I came across this BBC documentary some years ago about Japanese satoyama villages. There are a number of documentaries/videos on the subject of Satoyama, but something in this one particularly struck me.

Here is what I am referencing, the scene between 11:40–13:33:



Each home has a built-in pool or water tank that lies partly inside, partly outside its walls; in the pool lounge friendly, ornamental carp. A continuous stream of spring water is piped right into a basin so fresh water is always available. The carp are not purely ornamental nor are they to be eaten. People rinse out pots in the tanks and clean their freshly-picked vegetables. If they simply pour the food scraps back into the water, they risk polluting the whole village supply. However, carp can scar out even the greasy or burnt pans. They do the washing up in satoyama villages.

This traditional arrangement is called the riverside method: it's used all over Japan. Cleaned up by the carp, the tank water eventually rejoins the channel.



The documentary is worth watching in its entirety and I am sure that would influence this conversation. I am not sure if this is the right forum for the discussion to expand beyond this particular scene, but it may help inform the discussion to understand the surrounding circumstances of this village. I think the use of carp as kitchen assistants is an interesting focal point, and partially definitive of the anthropogenic environment.

Does anyone here incorporate a similar system in their homestead? How so? Have you heard of the riverside method in this context?

I find it intriguing, to be used in the right circumstances.
 
gardener
Posts: 1095
Location: Western Kentucky
450
dog gear foraging trees hunting food preservation cooking fiber arts woodworking wood heat rocket stoves
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Apparently, some places also use fish to exfoliate people's feet!
 
pollinator
Posts: 1830
Location: Denmark 57N
473
fungi foraging trees cooking food preservation
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Not with fish, but letting dogs clean the plate is the same idea. we also get them to clean the recycling we can recycle the butter containers but only if there is no butter remaining, washing in hot water with soap uses more energy than will be saved by recycling so washing with a dogs tongue is perfect.
 
master gardener
Posts: 1078
Location: Coastal Salish Sea area, British Columbia - USDA zone 8-9
493
goat books chicken food preservation pig solar wood heat rocket stoves homestead ungarbage
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Skandi Rogers wrote:Not with fish, but letting dogs clean the plate is the same idea. we also get them to clean the recycling we can recycle the butter containers but only if there is no butter remaining, washing in hot water with soap uses more energy than will be saved by recycling so washing with a dogs tongue is perfect.




Yea our cat is our pre wash. It works great. She gets the oily/fatty dishes. butter wrappers. She is always nonchalantly sitting there in catlike form, waiting for that dish to be put on the floor. than she jumps at lightning speed to start contributing to the dish washing..
 
Joshua Tarantino
Posts: 33
Location: Urban, Zone:6b, Rainfall:49in
8
urban medical herbs ungarbage
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

jordan barton wrote:Yea our cat is our pre wash. It works great. She gets the oily/fatty dishes. butter wrappers. She is always nonchalantly sitting there in catlike form, waiting for that dish to be put on the floor. than she jumps at lightning speed to start contributing to the dish washing..



That's a great way to do it, though I tend to lick my plate clean before an animal could get to it heheh...

I am curious about the other instances that this specific method would be useful, in an extended permaculture system. Any ideas? I imagine large communities that produce a significant amount of used kitchenware at once (say, through the preparation of a communal meal) might actually benefit from something like this. And for those who produce commercially, by decreasing labor and waste. It makes sense here in this satoyama village, in this particular environment. I like to keep in mind that it was intentionally designed and developed on that scale, seemingly over a long period time. The water tanks in these wet rooms must hold all sorts of purposes!
 
Joshua Tarantino
Posts: 33
Location: Urban, Zone:6b, Rainfall:49in
8
urban medical herbs ungarbage
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
In further considering the particular use of carp to clean and make use of used kitchenware, I think it would pose an obstacle for large-scale application (ie. community events, commercial kitchens). Through reading about others' trials, I am not sure carp would be able to handle a high capacity with a fast enough turnaround for it to be truly efficient. However, if there is an interconnected system of small tanks that make up a greater system, as done in Japan, it seems to work in a wonderful way. Perhaps there are other bottom feeders and small organisms that could contribute to the high capacity of the aforementioned situations. Crayfish?

Its potential use in aquaponics is something to marvel at as well.

I found a documentation entitled The Village of Living Water through a very similar post on the forums (in which I found an abundance of ideas on this topic). This account demonstrates the use of Japanese kabatas in the village of Harie. Basically, a network of springs is created from mountain and lake water, guided by waterways that run through the village and eventually to homes. The kabata—essentially a water tank with a basin and pool containing carp—is used for all sorts of kitchen purposes, including food preparation, food scrap management, and drinking. This contribute to the larger system, supporting life in Harie's waterways. Each kabata is incorporated in a different way, which both diversifies the system and addresses specific needs.

By this account, there are clearly some permaculture principles at work. I think it is a beautiful example of the community aspects of permaculture and whole systems thinking!
 
girl power ... turns out to be about a hundred watts. But they seriously don't like being connected to the grid. Tiny ad:
Greenhouse of the Future ebook - now free for a while
https://permies.com/goodies/greenhouse
reply
    Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic