Long term apple trees in a pot maybe?

Hi folks.

Last year I planted out about a dozen apple trees of various types which in theory should produce in my northern Scottish location. Peaty soil, lots of rain and lots of wind create a few difficulties.
We had some strong wind last year at just the wrong time which blew most blossom off. No big deal just yet on young trees.
In time most directions of wind will be sheltered for them but not 100%, I'm not after big returns in the short term.
In a seperate area I have also dug a a bit of a hole and used the soil to create a bund almost all the way round with a view to put a 5mx4m polytunnel in but that is maybe not now required. The soil I dug out is poor, and very little top soil anyway. The bottom of the hole is essentially rock.
So I was wondering about buying some crab apples which I believe is MM106 and should grow here, creating my own supply within one tub, and then grafting from the trees I already have onto the crab apple rootstock.
I know MM106 isn't dwarf, but as something that will grow here, can be trimmed, described as in theory not needing to be staked so I assume is a stronger plant?
So, if all that is ok and makes sense, can I put those base tree stocks in a tub with the locally garden centre available peat based compost out of bags, mixed with some blood and bone and maybe some shell sand, topped with chicken pellets and a seaweed liquid feed over time? What volume and depth of tub to be tree home for it's life?
I could put a similar volume of compost in raised beds but wouldn't be as deep. Is that better?
Any topsoil I could scrape up is full of creeping buttercup and a grass that spreads and has such tough centres you could realistically use an axe to get the clumps up.
The hole in question has a fall, has some water running through from a heather and grass covered slope which I could divert to spread through the tub or bed bases. And a nice big pipe outlet so water and cold can drop away.
200m from the sea, sun all day in the summer, sun up, to maybe 2pm in winter.
Any help gratefully received.

MM106 is a variety used as a rootstock so its not the same as crabapple but it should also make a similar sized trees when used as rootstocks. Though I must admit I have not tried using a crabapple as a rootstock.

Not 100% sure what you are going for but I would try and get them in the ground if you can.

You are going to want to stake apple mm106 and presumably crab apple rootstocks based trees too. The question is for how long... If you get them in as early first year whips the time for staking will be less as they are not so likely to topple over. As you are on an island in Scotland and persumably thinking about growing them in pots for a few years you might be looking at leaving them with some kind of support for quite a while.

RHS recommends 5 years staking; longer in exposed locations. I have achieved less than 5 years but then I am a lot less wind exposed than you. I weigh the tree down with rocks on the rootball area and let them them loose when possible securing them again if needed.

I would add some mycorrhizal fungi to the pots if you can.

We get very high and prolonged wind here, trees grow at 45 degree angles, MM106 is my prefered rootstock, giving a tree that is 5m tall, fast growing and strong.  It would not be at all suitable for a pot grown tree, you would want a dwarfing rootstock for that. My previous house had acidic waterlogged soil ontop of solid clay, fruit trees managed to grow for around 20 years and then they got to big and fell over. the only trees that managed to stay standing were some wild cherries and alders.
If you want to try in the ground you'll want to get them in the ground as young as possible, if you get 1 year old trees they won't need staking at all.

I don't understand your use case for potted apples,,as you only mention the potting in the title.
WHY do you need potted apple trees?

You want to keep them in the pot temporarily or permanent?
I suppose it is temporarily, as you mention your soil conditions.
Edit:

jason holdstock wrote: What volume and depth of tub to be tree home for it's life?
I could put a similar volume of compost in raised beds but wouldn't be as deep. Is that better?

Ok, so if you want the trees to prosper, the ground is always better than a tub.
But compost should be spreaded evenly on the ground, not in one big pile where the
tree sits, because the root crown has to be put on undistirbed ground.
In a compost pile it would sink in with time.

Then why not start them in the ground and graft you varieties on later?

Still an apple tree from seed is the best root system as it does not loose the tap root,
which is otherwise (started in  pot) inevitable lost (source: Paul's starting apples from seed tread which i could not find right now) .
And you WANT the taproot in your conditions, as there is a tendency for a spot with more water or even a crack to deeper groundwater in rocky soil,
and the taproot can find that spot (i suppose, no proof here, only deduction).

But still there is evidence for the advantage of apples from seed, lock up Pauls thread on that.

There is no reason to start an apple tree in a pot, so why would you do it?

Also plant some WINDBREAK trees/hedge, this seems to be more important right now than more apple trees.

If you really have to have them in pots for some time, build some that air-prune the roots.

Thank you for the replies.

I am hoping for some long term apple production for domestic use in a spot with no topsoil but the best wind protection I can provide without wall building. The only soil I can buy is bagged compost or maybe topsoil a ton at a time in a trailer, but only in the summer.

I am, perhaps ignorantly, ignoring what is generally said about tree size. I don't believe a tree will reach its described maximum considering the bashing it will get.
The most exposed direction of where I'm considering has a shelter belt planted which may get 2-3m high, and the hole to put the trees in is about 1.5m deep, so if I keep whichever apple trees they end up as trimmed to about 2.5m then hopefully they won't blow over.
When I asked The Woodland Trust about tree planting generally they said spacing should be 1.5m throughout regardless of type, although there may not be a huge variety that will actually survive in the open.
I watched a UK YTube clip where he describes crabapples as MM106 and I hadn't thought to query that, so thank you for the headsup.
Some of the trees I previously bought came from the Agroforestry Reseach Trust in the UK, whose page for James Grieve for instance says

"M27 is very dwarfing, making a tree about 1.5-2 m (5-6½ ft) high. Requires staking where exposed and good growing conditions.

M26 is a useful all-round semi-dwarf rootstock, making a bush tree growing 2.5-3.5 m (8-12 ft) high, also good for cordons. Requires staking for the first few years.

MM106 is slightly more vigorous than M26, making a bush or half standard around 4 m (13 ft) high, also good for cordons. Doesn’t usually need staking"

When I say compost I mean commercial bagged soil/peat with some short term food that you could plant anything in, hanging flower baskets to veg. I don't mean composted garden and kitchen waste.
Bagged compost is all I can buy here, apart from a commercial source of topsoil, screened to some extent, but our island's bridge has a temporary weight restriction meaning no lorries this season. So maybe I could get that a trailer load at a time. But he can only access it when the ground isn't too wet, summer only.
There is minimal topsoil on my ground, most is actually peat or rock. The soil there is has a lot of very persistant weeds.
So a tub/pot of about 65 litre volume for each tree I hope would be ok, with compost out of a bag and fed and watered.
I can't see much point in making a pair of raised beds 5m long and maybe 1.5m wide to each put three trees in if those trees will only make use of a similar volume of soil (?) if they were in 65l tubs assuming they are fed and watered? The raised beds from similar compost would still require the same feeding even if they may hold water for longer.
The tubs I thought of using are plastic horse feed tubs, quite sturdy, so I could cut the bottom off to give the trees a chance of eeking out anything in the ground they can find. The digger bucket was scraping rock when I dug the hole though.
I hadn't thought of growing from seed, i will try it too, if I get any apples! :)

jason holdstock wrote:
I am hoping for some long term apple production for domestic use in a spot with no topsoil but the best wind protection I can provide without wall building. The only soil I can buy is bagged compost or maybe topsoil a ton at a time in a trailer, but only in the summer.

Why buying topsoil, when you can create it? Have you read basic permaculture literature?
If not, "Gaia's Garden" is a good entry.

Furthermore there is an excellent soil thread series by Dr. Redhawk,
so before you randomly drop ammandments on your site, better read his threads and go for something that actually works efficently on your site.

https://permies.com/wiki/redhawk-soil#637639

I have no spare soil structure to build from.
Peat is not soil. I could build from its organic matter, but I'd have to buy and import a lot of material. In the past, seaweed and shell sand was added to areas where there was soil, not peat, to grow on. The areas of soil I have will be or are used and nurtured. And there isn't much.
Does Dr. Redhawk have any experience with peat?

R. Han wrote:

jason holdstock wrote:

Why buying topsoil, when you can create it? Have you read basic permaculture literature?
If not, "Gaia's Garden" is a good entry.

Furthermore there is an excellent soil thread series by Dr. Redhawk,
so before you randomly drop ammandments on your site, better read his threads and go for something that actually works efficently on your site.

https://permies.com/wiki/redhawk-soil#637639

jason holdstock wrote:I have no spare soil structure to build from.

You do not need "spare soil" to create topsoil. Also you do not have to do large imports, you can grow it in place.

If you feel your situation is very special, then you might have to become the expert for your situation.
For achieving this you should have some soil knowledge.
If you can tell us on which soil literature you have read, we can propose sources to fill eventual gaps,
to help you find the right approach for your situation.

R. Han wrote:

jason holdstock wrote:I have no spare soil structure to build from.

You do not need "spare soil" to create topsoil. Also you do not have to do large imports, you can grow it in place.

If you feel your situation is very special, then you might have to become the expert for your situation.
For achieving this you should have some soil knowledge.
If you can tell us on which soil literature you have read, we can propose sources to fill eventual gaps,
to help you find the right approach for your situation.

I would like to know-

"can I put those base tree stocks in a tub with the locally garden centre available peat based compost out of bags, mixed with some blood and bone and maybe some shell sand, topped with chicken pellets and a seaweed liquid feed over time? What volume and depth of tub to be tree home for it's life? "

I do not have soil worth speaking of. I have peat. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peat

If you know how to turn peat into soil without importing anything then please enlighten me.

I have read some Dr Seuss if that helps?

jason holdstock wrote:

R. Han wrote:

jason holdstock wrote:I have no spare soil structure to build from.

I do not have soil worth speaking of. I have peat. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peat

Did you have that soil tested? What was the result of the test?

Can you post a picture of your place? It really helps to visualize the situation.