Perennial kale

I've been gifted 2 plants of perennial kale. So have a few questions on growing.
1. Can it be grown in shade (with only a couple of hours of sun)?
2. How much space do they really need and can they be kept smaller? My garden is already bursting with plants so need to manage better.
3. Is one perennial kale enough for a family of 4 or do I need two? I was planning to gift one to our tidy towns for an edible landscaping project I am pushing to start in our local park this year but can just get cuttings when these two mature.
4. They've already been attacked by the cabbage white caterpillars (I only got them in September). How do you deal with that problem? Do you net them or share the harvest with the wildlife? Can they survive the slug/snail/caterpillar damage (that's a more pressing question for the edible landscaping project obviously as would be left to tend to itself)?

P.S. And yes, I would love Alan Carter's new book as his blog inspired me to grow aralia cordata and a couple of other plants that I haven't considered for my urban garden. I am based in Ireland and plants that grow in his Scottish garden seem to be a better fit for my climate than what's advised in Martin Crawford's books.  

It looks like a Daubenton's kale, which grows to make a mound the best part of a metre high and across. Its shoots will arch over and root at the tip, at which it becomes a bit of a sprawling mess. I wouldn't let it do that, but deliberately pot up a new cutting every few years as individual plants only live 5-6 year in my garden. They'll take a moderate amount of shade - 2 hours of full sun should be enough. I find them more pest-resistant than other kales, but you do seem to have a problem there! I'd pick off the caterpillars until it gets established, when it should be more resistant. It might be that they do better in a pest-predator-rich forest garden than in a pot. I've never netted mine and they do sometimes get hammered by pigeons in hard winters, but they always recover and I feel that their need is greater than mine at that point.

https://www.foodforest.garden/2012/10/12/daubentons-kale-growing-and-cooking/

I'm glad you've found the blog helpful: good luck winning the book!

Alan Carter wrote:It looks like a Daubenton's kale, which grows to make a mound the best part of a metre high and across. Its shoots will arch over and root at the tip, at which it becomes a bit of a sprawling mess. I wouldn't let it do that, but deliberately pot up a new cutting every few years as individual plants only live 5-6 year in my garden. They'll take a moderate amount of shade - 2 hours of full sun should be enough. I find them more pest-resistant than other kales, but you do seem to have a problem there! I'd pick off the caterpillars until it gets established, when it should be more resistant. It might be that they do better in a pest-predator-rich forest garden than in a pot. I've never netted mine and they do sometimes get hammered by pigeons in hard winters, but they always recover and I feel that their need is greater than mine at that point.

https://www.foodforest.garden/2012/10/12/daubentons-kale-growing-and-cooking/

I'm glad you've found the blog helpful: good luck winning the book!

Thanks Alan, that's really helpful. I'll plant them in the ground then to increase their chances and hopefully now that there are unlikely to be more caterpillars in October I hope the plants will have a chance to establish during the winter

My beautiful Taunton Deane kale was badly chewed by caterpillars this year too, to the point where even with regularly picking off the pesky things I thought I'd lose the plant. But it's bounced back beautifully now! Hoping yours does too!

Elana, good questions about the perennial kale! I've have some perennial collards and have been wondering some of the same things.

Elena Brooks wrote:They've already been attacked by the cabbage white caterpillars (I only got them in September). How do you deal with that problem? Do you net them or share the harvest with the wildlife? Can they survive the slug/snail/caterpillar damage (that's a more pressing question for the edible landscaping project obviously as would be left to tend to itself)?

I find that daily checking and hand picking the caterpillars helps a lot. I've also make a spray that is very effective against cabbage moths.

3 C fresh mint
2 bulbs fresh garlic
1 or two fresh cayenne peppers or 2 tsp cayenne powder
3 qts water
biosafe dishwashing soap

Chop garlic (no need to peel), mint, and cayenne peppers (wear gloves for fresh cayenne!) Place these in the water in a pot and bring to a simmer. Cool and strain into a spray bottle. Add a squirt of soap.  Spray it on your cabbages, kale, collards, etc., undersides of leaves too. It has to be re-applied after rain or watering. I've brought badly eaten plants back to thriving with this spray.

Jane Mulberry wrote:My beautiful Taunton Deane kale was badly chewed by caterpillars this year too, to the point where even with regularly picking off the pesky things I thought I'd lose the plant. But it's bounced back beautifully now! Hoping yours does too!

Thanks. One hasn't yet. The other one is doing well. Will keep an eye on it.

Leigh Tate wrote:Elana, good questions about the perennial kale! I've have some perennial collards and have been wondering some of the same things.

Elena Brooks wrote:They've already been attacked by the cabbage white caterpillars (I only got them in September). How do you deal with that problem? Do you net them or share the harvest with the wildlife? Can they survive the slug/snail/caterpillar damage (that's a more pressing question for the edible landscaping project obviously as would be left to tend to itself)?

I find that daily checking and hand picking the caterpillars helps a lot. I've also make a spray that is very effective against cabbage moths.

3 C fresh mint
2 bulbs fresh garlic
1 or two fresh cayenne peppers or 2 tsp cayenne powder
3 qts water
biosafe dishwashing soap

Chop garlic (no need to peel), mint, and cayenne peppers (wear gloves for fresh cayenne!) Place these in the water in a pot and bring to a simmer. Cool and strain into a spray bottle. Add a squirt of soap.  Spray it on your cabbages, kale, collards, etc., undersides of leaves too. It has to be re-applied after rain or watering. I've brought badly eaten plants back to thriving with this spray.

Thanks so much for the recipe! That's really helpful.

Hi everyone
Recently I  sprayed my kale with dipel -bacillusthuringiensis. It’s supposed to be organic friendly. I’d been picking off 8 or 9 caterpillars a day but haven’t found any for a week.
Even better about an hour ago I noticed a spider on the kale eating a adult white cabbage moth.
Smiles Max