Phaseolus interspecific / interfamilial hybrids

I've been making some posts on my general Garden / hybrids, experimentation thread.


Frankly, I figured I should make a thread for this.


I also didn't feel that this would fit properly elsewhere.



As mentioned elsewhere, I have some probable P. vulgaris x P. lunatus.


The parents would probably be Succotash and Alma's PA Dutch.


I've grown the seed out before. It gives me beans with thicker pods, bizarre growth.


I'd be growing seed from the F2, I believe. Considering I saved seed from some bizarre plants out in the garden (They grew all funky), and a ton from a pole that I had for hummingbirds.


If this is an Alma's PA Dutch x Succotash, I probably won't see much seed variation.




I also have maybe 4 or 5 different non white seeded bush Scarlet Runner bean varieties that I imported using a small lots of seed years back now. They're growing well enough.


I'm growing some Sunset Runner beans near them too. I'm hoping to see if they'll be able to pollinate or be pollinated by them.

I'd also like to see if they're able to accept pollen from common beans to any degree. They're all stabilized Common x Runner hybrids from different lines.


Their flower formations resemble Scarlet Runner beans, at least one variety so far does. And they all have nearly underground seeds, Common beans have their grow upwards with the stem. I am seeing red flowers. Yay.




Back to the probable Lima x Common beans. The mother would be Succotash beans if they're indeed a cross.


I think the flowers were yellow or a unpleasant yellowish color, which made me confused as I wouldn't plant those up the hummingbird pole.


Very thick pods, larger non-dry seed than usual. Granted it's usually never used when the pods are green.


Some Runners also grew funky, but I planted those beans late.


The garden, I went out of the country and it went out of control. I ended up leaving it but I did collect some odd Succotash beans there as well.


I just now got back around to remembering that these existed.



There aren't any flowers yet. But, one plant has two sets of cotyledons. Another, put out two tendrils in the center of the plant and they've just been climbing each other, but are now too long and are finally agreeing to attach to a pole.

Honestly, multiple cotyledons doesn't sound like a great thing.



I took some images yesterday and today again. I probably won't post more till I get flowers.




Peruvian cow print lima bean, Paul's jungle lima bean, Deep maroon and white. (Phaseolis lunatus). I ordered some of these from Brian Laufer. He's on an expedition or whatnot.

I don't expect them to be packaged and things for a bit.


If I have Lima hybrid, I'd very much like to grow multiple varieties.

Just like common beans, Limas had multiple domestications. There are true annual limas, and then there are limas that can't withstand frost but they're from the tropics and are actually perennials.


So, I'd like to cross some Limas into any potential interspecific hybrids. Just because I refuse to stabilize something and risk it not being able to cross back into one species.



Willowleaf colored pole lima is probably a variety that  I'd grow as well. I went "Oh, neat a mutation."

Then I remembered that Joseph added a carrot leaf mutant into some of his Tomato lines.


Mutants are pretty cool things.

Potawatomi Pole is another bean that I'd grow, as well as Sadies Baby Lima, Worchester Indian Red Pole, Simmons Red Streak Semi Pole and Ceceilia Davis Family Pole.


There are others, namely wild or Peruvian / South American landraces.


The same story applies to Common beans.

I'm growing Lohrey's Old Tasmanian - the beans have a natural salt taste, possibly pulling salt up from the soil. Plus black seeded Marvel Of Venice. And Red Swan bush beans.


I also picked up Jackson Wonder Lima at the store a few weeks back and they're growing well enough. Their cotyledons have some white veins or striping similar to some species of squash. Only seems to happen with the first set of leaves.



I just figured that I'd make a dedicated post.


I'm going to add some more posts, some with Strophostyles, Psophocarpus, Lotus, Vigna and other species.


If those don't get traction or anything they'll just be single posts here.


I'll also mention Phaseolus polystachios and probably tepary beans eventually too.



Ideally, I'll end up with a Common x Runner bean at some point and mix that in with a Common x Lima.

I will select for open flowers that are likely to be promiscuous. Meaning, they'll accept pollen from things like P. polystachios or other species, easily.

Others have mentioned that they have two different Phaseolus species elsewhere on Permies. That's also quite cool.


Native seed search has Sycamore Canyon wild tepary and Santa Catalina wild tepary, bunch of other cool types of tepary.



Now onto Strophostyles.

I'm copy pasting this from my Instagram:



My @experimentalfarmnetwork and Prarie Moon Nursery seeds came in today.

@nancyjondra seeds came in a while back now. I also got Strophostyles helvola from her, on Hayefield.

In this post, I'll be mentioning Strophostyles helvola and Strophostyles leiosperma.

The image on the far left has Prarie Moon's Strophostyles helvola in the colorful packet, followed by The Experimental Farm Network's type - which is actually a mix of different accessions.


I actually have sandpaper just set aside for seeds. Knives and tweezers are a pain when I encounter small seeds.

I may sand my fingers a bit doing this. But, in the future, I'll also probably have bulk seed, or it'll reseed itself. Sanded fingers, don't hurt much because it barely does anything.

Sharp objects on rounded seeds or beans. I saw someone online mention sandpaper and decided to never try nicking any seed.

The Experimental Farm Networks types are varied in their outer colors, possibly due to ecotypes or accessions being mixed in. They're all about the same size.

Hayefield's type, I noticed, has a trait that I've read about on the seeds. They get a wooly / fluffy coating on their beans / seed. I felt it very slightly when I opened up the packet and touched them. And it sounds different from the others when placed back into the packet.



I'd have to ask The Experimental Farm Network's collectors if they purposefully didn't seek out / collect smaller Amberique / Woolly Bean types or if they simply didn't find them on the coasts. I'd also have to ask Prarie Moon Nursery and The Experimental Farm Network if they cleaned their seeds really well, and the beans simply lost the fluffy coating.

It's entirely possible that not all populations have the coating. According to some research, it helps prevent the beans from molding or being damaged by temperate climates. While I'm sure some people may see it as an odd thing and breed against it, it's actually a very nice adaptation. Especially if someone is looking to try any crosses into Phaseolus with Strophostyles.
Then, there's an image with The Experimental Farm Networks mix again. Along with Hayefield's type from Bucks County, PA.

The last image has Hayefield's type next to Strophostyles leiosperma from Prarie Moon Nursery.

Firstly, both of the Strophostyles ecotypes / accessions that Prarie Moon Nursery sells. Compared to Hayefield's and The Experimental Farm Networks types, they're both incredibly small.

Both their S. helvola and S. leiosperma types are glossy and shiny on top of being small.

I was also reading that their site recommended doing cold moist stratification. I figured that I'd scarify them with sandpaper. Which I'll still do. It won't be fun, but I can do that.

Extra:

The Experimental Farm Network did respond rather quickly. Most of what they found was uniform for their coats and bean size.

Their beans are a bit woolly / rough. It's possible that they cleaned off the film, or coastal populations don't have it. Hayefield's has a semi peelable white film on the seeds.

Lotus purpureus / tetragonolobus, Lotus corniculatus, Lotus berthelotii.


The first two, are edible.



I thought that I mentioned Vigna species somewhere and was gonna copy / paste that stuff.


Anyways, I made a large list of edible species somewhere. I'm probably going to grow out a large amount of species together at some point, but not right directly next to the other legumes.




My one friend told me that Vigna angularis and Lotus tetragonolobus / purpureus can cross with simple pollination - bees and whatnot. But the crosses don't always take, and you'd probably need to grow them close together.


He's from Japan. Said that he's allowed to talk about the stuff, but he can't reuse the seed from that project. Seems they just immediately lost funding and it went elsewhere.


His higher ups have it so that he and others can discuss it but not actually talk about what accessions were used or anything else. And they can't take seed themselves to do whatever. Its probably shelved away forever.


He was encouraged to tell others I guess.



So, I went "Oh, guess I'll have to try finding wild adzuki beans, or all sorts of varieties and grow them by Adzuki beans."



I'll also be growing a ton of different Vigna species side by side. I have some of what's probably sea island "peas" growing / just now coming up.

Then the general idea is to grow multiple accessions and hope that some species end up being just compatible enough to cross.

Some Psophocarpus hybrids would be cool.

Some Vignas of interest:


Vigna lanceolata

Vigna vexillata

Vigna umbellata

Vigna trilobata

Vigna aconitifolia

Vigna angularis

Vigna unguiculata

Vigna radiata

Vigna mungo

Vigna subterranea



https://www.researchgate.net/publication/307632448_Interspecifi_C_hybridization_of_Vigna_radiata_13_wild_Vigna_species_for_developing_MYMV_donar


Vigna umbellata seems to cross well with other Asian Vigna species.



V. radiata and Vigna vexillata have been crossed and there's been segregating F2 offspring.


Based off this data, it's possible that some Asian species can cross with African ones. Sweet.


"Vigna mungo is easily crossable with Vigna umbellata." is also mentioned on there.


There's also some mention that some species could be listed into genepools or something.



Some crosses did have pod set, but their pods shriveled up after pollination.


When I grew my potentially hybrid Succotash x Alma's PA Dutch, I actually had a lot of pods abort on some plants.


It's highly possible that some plants will self correct or just up and form pods, with fertile seed in low amounts while other pods die off.



I wasn't aware that Vigna species were known for crossing into each other so easily.



Granted, I haven't read anything on Cowpea interspecifics and that's probably what a lot of people would be looking for.


Some Vignas like Adzuki beans, are thought to have been domesticated in Japan.


Japan has a lot of climates. The beans are even found on some islands with no wild populations or where there aren't many wild types.

I think they've been thought to have been domesticated thousands of years ago before spreading elsewhere.


Japan has similar climates to a lot of the United States. I've found that most natives there do well enough to immediately become weedy here.


So, I'd be interested in somehow crossing some Adzuki beans over to cowpeas at some point.



There is the eventual goal of obtaining Vigna x Phaseolus hybrids.


That's way far down the road.

If I'm reading things correctly, some Vigna species are somewhat promiscuous.


I'll try finding some places that offer harder to find species.

I am enjoying the posts about your breeding projects.

I have been reading some research that hypothesizes that Amphicarpaea is closely related to Glycine. American Hog Peanut Amphicarpaea bracteata seems to have the same number of chromosomes as Soybean Glycine max, which has been rolling around in my mind since I read about it.

Not Phaseolus, but I wondered if Amphicarpaea is among the candidates you have looked at for your work.

Amphicarpaea bracteata, is a species that I've looked into. It's a very nice species as well.


My only problem with soybeans, is that they have a few chemicals that give people some not so great symptoms.

Soybean allergies.


I'll probably end up getting a bunch of soybeans just to grow and whatnot at some point along with Hog peanuts.



Maybe next year even.



Plus there's a very small chance of getting interspecifics in the first place.

It's just a worry.


A Pea hybridizing with anything gives me a worry that it could mix some chemicals with beans or something and become a problem.


Peas are probably one of the more unlikely things to ever cross over, though.



But, I didn't know Glycine and Amphicarpaea was so closely related to soybeans.


To me, growing multiple closely related species that can't cross with each other creates disease vectors.


They're all grown in plantations in monocultures usually which breeds disease in the first place. That can easily spread to related species, or viruses can adapt to infect related species.


Honestly, soybeans are healthy if you take out some bad chemicals. Very healthy.


"Soy, it turned out, contains estrogen-like compounds called isoflavones. And some findings suggested that these compounds could promote the growth of some cancer cells, impair female fertility and mess with thyroid function." - from a site called good house keeping. There's other sources out there too.

It doesn't seem to cause any bad effects other than that. Though studies have also shown that people who eat a lot of soy have lower cancer risks and live longer. Though, there are multiple types of cancers.


And soy has a lot of nice chemicals that do other fun stuff.



But yeah, I'll probably end up growing those too.

Thanks for the suggestion.

I appreciate your thoughtful response! I have a large native population of hog peanuts here, and I do have a few soybeans in my 'bean mix' but it would be a miracle if I had a cross that I also managed to plant out.

I should try direct seeding soybeans into an area with wild hog peanuts each year, if I would plan it out it would be low effort.

Dwarf Scarlet Runner bean.

This first variety to start doing its thing, doesn't have a great looking flower. Well, it's nice but actual runners look nicer.


The flowers insides are all exposed. This means that it'll probably be able to accept pollen from a Runner bean at the very least. Maybe even a common bean.


This is also the first flower to open, later flowers may be different.



The Strophostyles, Hayefield's and The Experimental Farm Networks ones are starting to germinate.

I'd say that these germinate faster than beans. Granted, I did scarify a few.


I'm hoping that Alma's PA Dutch and the Thicket Beans also come up soon.

Does anyone here happen to have any Simmon's Red Streak Lima for sale or trade? It's extremely difficult to find. This is one of the few places I've found it mentioned.