• Post Reply Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic
permaculture forums growies critters building homesteading energy monies kitchen purity ungarbage community wilderness fiber arts art permaculture artisans regional education experiences global resources the cider press projects digital market permies.com private forums all forums
this forum made possible by our volunteer staff, including ...
master stewards:
  • Nicole Alderman
  • r ranson
  • Anne Miller
  • paul wheaton
stewards:
  • Jocelyn Campbell
  • Mike Jay Haasl
  • Burra Maluca
garden masters:
  • James Freyr
  • Joylynn Hardesty
  • Steve Thorn
  • Greg Martin
gardeners:
  • Carla Burke
  • Dave Burton
  • Pearl Sutton

Wide hybridization between different species/genera

 
steward
Posts: 4678
Location: Cache Valley, zone 4b, Irrigated, 9" rain in badlands.
1558
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I love making crosses between different species and/or genera. How about you? Any of you involved in that sort of thing? How about crosses between domesticated species and their wild ancestors?
 
pollinator
Posts: 1331
Location: RRV of da Nort
160
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Great to hear of the continuing success on these projects and the interesting types emerging from the efforts!

In case it's of interest to the hybridization enthusiast, the somewhat technical article in the link below reinforces the notion that neighboring plants, sometimes rather divergent ones, are contributing to genetic variation in saved seeds via hybridization and subsequent acquisition of genes and chromosomes.  Suddenly I'm envisioning yet MORE weeds, not less, in the garden to foster this possibility.

http://www.plantphysiol.org/content/plantphysiol/173/1/65.full.pdf
 
Joseph Lofthouse
steward
Posts: 4678
Location: Cache Valley, zone 4b, Irrigated, 9" rain in badlands.
1558
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Thanks John: I have been a follower of the work of Alan Kapuler for some years. He introduced me to an idea that I think of as "kinship gardening", growing things together that are somewhat distantly related, in hopes that every once in a great while they might find a way to hybridize.

I sure am in the muck up to my eyeballs with inter-species hybrids. Just today I planted  two different inter-species squash hybrids right next to each other. Hoping to get some offspring that are: [moschata X maxima] X [argyrosperma X moschata]. I might even attempt hand pollination to make this cross, even though I set it up to encourage bee-pollination. I'm also intending to attempt to cross pepo into [moschata X maxima] this summer.

I'll be watching the tomatoes closely for any hybrids that are [S lycopersicon X S habrochaites] X [S lycopersicon X S pennelliii]. I stopped trying to keep peruvianum complex tomatoes as separate species. They all got lumped together and inter-crossed. Eventually I may identify some hybrids between Solanum habrochaites and Solanum pennellii.

Other inter-species hybrids that I am working on  are perennial wheat, perennial rye, perennial watermelon, corn, cactus, various bean crosses. When I was breeding sunroots, I kept watch for crosses between H tuberosum and H annuus. That would have a lot of potential!
 
gardener
Posts: 817
Location: Galicia, Spain zone 9a
184
dog duck chicken cooking food preservation fiber arts pig bike bee solar ungarbage
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I find your work exciting, Joseph! My approach is plant everything together, save the best seeds this year. Or drop the newly sewn seed tray of fwo different types, sfamp feet and swear, scrape it up off the floor back into tray, plant out resulting mix and ses what happens.  Volunteer crossing!  I just hope to get varieties of beens and tomatoes that suit our horrid soil on a north east facig old neglected paddock that we ars trying to drag back to production.  I do keep my flint and sweet corns separate though. Am I right to do so?
 
Joseph Lofthouse
steward
Posts: 4678
Location: Cache Valley, zone 4b, Irrigated, 9" rain in badlands.
1558
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Mandy Launchbury-Rainey wrote:I do keep my flint and sweet corns separate though. Am I right to do so?



I like to keep my sweet corn and the flint corn separate for use in the kitchen.

One of my favorite corn varieties has flint, flour, sweet, pop, and wild corn all growing together. I don't use it in the kitchen though. I use it for plant breeding, and to feed the chickens.
 
John Weiland
pollinator
Posts: 1331
Location: RRV of da Nort
160
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Joseph Lofthouse wrote:I love making crosses between different species and/or genera. How about you? Any of you involved in that sort of thing? How about crosses between domesticated species and their wild ancestors?



Unfortunately, the only thing I can lay (accidental) claim to is having planted some Chenopodium amaranticolor in my garden that went rogue, crossed with the lambsquarter already present as a weed, and formed clear hybrids.  The upshot is the generation of large-leafed lambsquarter with varying shades of purple through pink.  All of it very edible and now more succulent as a possible consequence of the hybridization.  And no planting needed.....all emerge as volunteers each spring.  Still working on a more annualized swiss chard.....but the end product is a ways down the road.
 
Posts: 201
Location: North Coast Dominican Republic
19
forest garden trees tiny house
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Joseph Lofthouse wrote:I love making crosses between different species and/or genera. How about you? Any of you involved in that sort of thing? How about crosses between domesticated species and their wild ancestors?


Haven't had a chance to try this, but I have been curious: we know that Queen Anne's lace is just a carrot reverted to the wild (Daucus carota). I have hear of people re-domesticating it through careful selection over the years. Now, parts of North America have their own native species, Daucus pusilla. I have long been curious as to whether this, too, can be domesticated into a garden carrot.
 
pollinator
Posts: 436
Location: Montana
139
forest garden trees
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
That's a interesting question. When I lived in California for a few years the first few months I was there I was weeding non-natives out of around some natives. One of the natives I found was a Daucus pusillus plant. Not much to it. Just a small annual flower.
 
John Weiland
pollinator
Posts: 1331
Location: RRV of da Nort
160
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
In case this didn't get linked earlier.   Really interesting discussion on the extent of wild genome introgression on the improvement of crop plants.

As a summarizing statement, consistent with what Joseph and the others have been observing over the years, --  "... it is important to stress out that adaptive introgression has higher opportunities to occur in (i) traditional farming systems where landraces are used and farmers select seed stocks over generations and (ii) low input systems where wild resistance traits could favor crop fitness (crop higher fitness). In intensive systems with no nutrient/water limitation and use of pesticides (i.e. more typical large-scale monocultures), it would be more difficult to identify and thus select for wild advantageous alleles."  [from the article.....my clarification added in the last set of parentheses]

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpls.2019.00004/full
 
Posts: 120
Location: Northern Colorado
31
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I'm working on [domestic watermelon x citron melon]  hybrids.

https://www.experimentalfarmnetwork.org/project/24
 
Posts: 68
11
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I'm tinkering with crossing tepary beans with other Phaseolus beans. Kind of expanding on Carol Deppe's discovery that led to her "Beefy Resilient Grex".

What I'd love to try is crossing Theobroma with something like okra, to make an annual chocolate source :) But that's going to have to wait until my greenhouse is built so I can grow the cacao plants.
 
Joseph Lofthouse
steward
Posts: 4678
Location: Cache Valley, zone 4b, Irrigated, 9" rain in badlands.
1558
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Ellendra Nauriel wrote:I'm tinkering with crossing tepary beans with other Phaseolus beans. Kind of expanding on Carol Deppe's discovery that led to her "Beefy Resilient Grex".



The best information that we have regarding the origins of Carol's Beefy Resilient Grex, is that the black "tepary" bean that she started with was not a tepary bean at all, but a common bean that has been mis-named in the seed industry for decades. As a result of our investigation, seed companies are updating their catalogs to call Black Mitla by it's proper species.

I think that it would be valuable to make acutifolius X vulgaris hybrids, but Black Mitla wouldn't be an appropriate starting point. We are having good success with vulgaris X coccineus crosses with vulgaris as the mother of the cross.

comparing tepary bean leafs to common bean leafs
Black Mitla (vulgaris) bean compared to a true tepary bean.
 
Ellendra Nauriel
Posts: 68
11
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Joseph Lofthouse wrote:

Ellendra Nauriel wrote:I'm tinkering with crossing tepary beans with other Phaseolus beans. Kind of expanding on Carol Deppe's discovery that led to her "Beefy Resilient Grex".



The best information that we have regarding the origins of Carol's Beefy Resilient Grex, is that the black "tepary" bean that she started with was not a tepary bean at all, but a common bean that has been mis-named in the seed industry for decades. As a result of our investigation, seed companies are updating their catalogs to call Black Mitla by it's proper species.



I know there's been a lot of debate about that. And I've seen a lot of people talking about how easily Black Mitla crosses with other common beans. But what I haven't seen (or else it was there and I missed it) was how easily does it cross with true tepary beans?

Even if it can't be used as a bridge between the species, there are other ways to cross them. Life happened the last few years, putting my experiments on hold. But I'm hoping to try again next year.
 
William Schlegel
pollinator
Posts: 436
Location: Montana
139
forest garden trees
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I grew Lofthouse scarlet runners packed for 2017, scarlet runners from some other source (no seed back), and Dakota Bumble Bean together in a tiny patch this year. I thought I had recalled that Dakota Bumble Bean was an interspecies hybrid but the variety description just says Jacobs cattle as an ancestor. Wonder if any crosses will show up.

Also decided recently I want to grow 5 species of Camassia together in the hopes of hybrids.
 
Joseph Lofthouse
steward
Posts: 4678
Location: Cache Valley, zone 4b, Irrigated, 9" rain in badlands.
1558
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
It's easy to spot crosses between common beans and runner beans. Just watch the common bean patch for (somewhat washed out) scarlet flowers. The cross pretty much only works if common bean is the mother.

Another easy way to spot crosses even earlier is to watch the cotyledons. Runner bean cotyledons stay underground. Common bean cotyledons are high in the air. Hybrids are near ground level.
 
Do you want ants? Because that's how you get ants. And a tiny ads:
dry stack retaining wall
https://permies.com/t/85178/dry-stack-retaining-wall
  • Post Reply Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic
Boost this thread!