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some questions from a newbie  RSS feed

 
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Hi, Iam new to this forum , my name is Yiannis and iam form cyprus.
I have some questions about building an RMH.
Iam very happy that finally i find a very good solution to heat my house.
What is the difference of 6'' , 7'' and 8'' exhaust pipe models.
Is there a difference in performance, and heat area that each model covers?
My home is about 250 square meters. Our winter is mild , we don't have snow ,
temperature is always above zero.
I plan to build the one with 8'' exhaust pipe, do you think is enough for my house??

How to join firebricks.Is it ok to use mixture: one part clay with 3 parts sand.

Can i use hay instead of Straw. What is the difference, how can i distinguish them.

Can exhaust pipe exit below the 55 gallon barrel or i have to make a hole at the lowest end of barrel and connect
the exhaust pipe.

What is your opinion if i use galvanized instead of stainless steel exhaust pipes or if you have any other idea.
(Stainless steel are very expensive, for 6 meters i have to pay more than 500 dollars.

For stainless steel barrel, What quality of stainless steel and thickness i have to use??

If i use fine wire mesh + clay + Perlite for the insulation of Heat riser, will wire mesh burn??

What is the dimensions of firebricks to build 8'' RMH??

Can i transfer the hot air from the room that RMH is installed to another room(different floor) using fans and
Plastic or wooden channels??
Thank you very much and sorry if my message is too large.
 
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Hi Yannis.

Well, for the clay and sand, i don't know.

Galvanised pipe, if offgased outside before, or embeded in the cob bench, it doesn't matter much. You could also check the half barrel system.

Your mesh won't burn on the outside of the heat riser. It wouldn't work on the inside tho. An eight incher should do the job, with enough mass. You can use hay, straw, wood fibers, horse hair and pretty much whatever for your cob.

You can exhaust bellow the barrel. Most of thye people do it this way. Carefull, make the transition area big enough.

You don't necessaryly need a stainless barrel.

Hth.

Max.
 
Yiannis Ioannou
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Hi max,
thank you for your fast response.Ι may use galvanized pipes especially in cob but I wonder if galvanized pipes will destroy due to creosote much faster than stainless steel and finally the investment on stainless steel is better? What do you think?
For the rest questions if anyone else can answer i will be very grateful.

What is the difference, if i build my RMH with dimensions appropriate for 6'' exhaust pipe Vs 8'' exhaust pipe.
Is there a difference in performance, and heat area that each RMH build covers?
My home is about 250 square meters. Our winter is mild , we don't have snow ,
temperature is always above zero. I plan to build the one with 8'' exhaust pipe, do you think is enough for my house??

What mixture can I use to join firebricks? Can i use 1 part clay with 3 parts sand or i must use something better with masonry cement?

Can i use concrete or metal pipes embedded in cob?
Thanks.
 
pollinator
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Yiannis Ioannou : Max will do a good job of taking care of you, I will try to add a few thoughts, but it is very hard to understand the differences in the resources
available to you, our best advice will often be useless if you do not have a way to get the materials locally !

With your climate, and the size of your house, you could easily heat the whole thing with a 6'' system, again In your case you may have to build with what you get,
Within the first 10 minutes of operation the internal temperatures in your Rocket will be above the ignition point of Creosote ~335dC~, you will never have to
worry about Creosote again ! Within the Cob thermal bench you can use the lightest weight of stove pipe you can find, The Cob that you surround the piping with
first, will seal everything and retain the form and mechanical strength of the piping, even if it should rust out, again once you get a meter deep into your Cob
Thermal Mass you can go with the cheapest pipe you can get locally

We have a sister site richsoil.com, go there and click on the rocket stove information post, this will take you to a good set of videos that you should watch
every one of them, you will learn how to prepare your barrel and the first few feet of your Galvanized stove pipe to change the way the galvanizing is mechanically
bonded to the stove pipe, rendering it safe to use in your Build, only about 2 lengths need to be treated, the rest of the Cob Thermal mass will never get hot
enough to make a problem !

Usually you can find a good local clay that can be mixed about 30% clay and the rest sand, and use that to mortar your fire bricks together, you will have to tell us
what size, shapes, and dimensions and weights you can get locally for Kiln/fire Bricks

You can use local dense stone, old chunks of Concrete, and chunks of metal like the head off of a gas or diesel motor after you have first covered the ducting with
cob but we need to try very hard to not add air bubbles into our Cob Thermal Bench as it slows the transfer of heat !

Keep coming back here to Permies.com and to richsoil.com, if there is a rocket mass heater in your Future, your fellow members will help you find IT!
For the Crafts ! Big AL
 
Yiannis Ioannou
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Thank you vary much both of you for your valuable info. I am sure that Max is one of the best.
I have read many documents and see many videos about RMH but now iam confused what is the best for my case. So I need your valuable help and experience. Sorry if sometimes I become boring.
I would like to clarify me some points of your answer.

Max,
I didn’t know about half barrel until you mention it. Wonderful idea. Now I have to think about it, as is an easy and cheap solution. I would like to ask what is the efficiency and the consumption of wood compared to typical RMH (with vertical feed , the design of Ianto Evans). From the video that I saw I didn’t understand whre is the supply of primary air when door is closed.
Can I use half barrel only for thermal mass heater combined with typical RMH build with firebricks?
The reason I prefer vertical feed is that I believe with horizontal feeding I will have problems with smell and some spill in room when opening the door to load wood. Also ashes spill in room when trying to clean them(main problem for electronic equipment). Now I have a wood stove and these are my main problems.


Allen,
if I understand (sorry for my English) it’s good to insert pipe for thermal mass one meter deep into cop, to keep heat longer time?

I told you that I think to build an 8’’ system because I will install it in Pergola. outside my home. Pergola will close round with a tent System. Only one side will contact with wall of house. The whole room will be about 30 square meters. I have to heat tent first and then my home. So I believe the best way to heat my 2 storey building is to send hot air via two fans( one for every floor) through ducts. What type of ducts do you suggest. Do you agree or you have a better idea. Note Pergola is about 1 meter lower than my home. Do you think that a 6’’ system is still enough?

To prepare my barrel I have to burn wood inside after cover it with damp newspaper dipped in mud to remove paint? I have to do the same for galvanized pipe?

What do you mean two lengths , 2 meters or no?

Are there many types of firebricks and I have to select Kiln firebricks

What is head off of gas and diesel engine. Can you show me some photos.

You told me I can use local dense stone , old chunks of concrete … , after I have first cover the ducting with cob. Are all of these good to store heat or reflect heat? I saw a
Video (http://www.youtube.com/attribution_link?a=kyfRdhrfrchTCaNJwqnNGg&u=/watch?v%3DNYJyxptclos%26feature%3Dshare) that tells you to put all these materials under the pipes to create the bench. Which is correct?


Does the cob must be put in layers and every time wait to dry before apply a new layer?
To create with cob the back of a sofa you need a mold?

Thanks a lot.

 
Satamax Antone
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Yannis, sorry, you haven't found the right "half barrel system"

http://donkey32.proboards.com/thread/609/heated-seating-nyc-restaurant

Most important, look at thoses pics.

http://s65.photobucket.com/albums/h228/mremine/NYC%20Rocket%20Stove%20Build/

and

http://donkey32.proboards.com/thread/560/half-barrel-system

You use a normal barrel and rocket at one end, to heat the flue/bell made out of half barrels.

What you must have found, is a "barrel stove", which isn't great by any means.

Another nice developpement, imho, is the batch rocket http://donkey32.proboards.com/thread/511/adventures-horizontal-feed
 
allen lumley
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Yiannis : You are going to heat treat the first meter of your galvanized stove pipe, around here stove pipe comes 30 inches long or 3/4 of a meter, you will have
to heat treat two sections, to have 1 meter of piping.

It will be different for you if you go with 1/2 barrels, you will need less pipe. I have not built with '1/2 barrels' myself, I will watch and learn if you build that way !
I also do not use ductwork, relying on the thermal mass to heat my living space, I live very close to the Canadian Border !

You will still need galvanized stove pipe to help create the manifold that channels the vertically falling hot exhaust gases from the barrel turning them 90 degrees
to flow into the horizontal Run of pipe or barrels in your Cob Thermal Mass Bench !

You need to remeasure the areas of your house you want heated, 6'' is too small for your Pergola, and 1st and second floors, however, you must find out what sizes
you can get locally for materials!

If you do not remove the paint and oils from the barrel before - you will be breathing them while tending the rocket mass heaters RMH Fire!

Please consider going to rocketstoves.com, to download a PDF Copy $18.ooUS, of the brand new 3rd addition of 'rocket mass heaters'. With ~100,000~
built word wide most of them have been made following 'The Book' and 95% of all the first builds (That Worked ) were made following 'The Book'

Feel free to check with "max'' on 'The Book' and I do not make a penny off of Recommending "The Book'' !

I do not know what is available to you for fire brick, you must do the finding on your end, go talk to a potter/ceramist !

If you had a junk motor, it would be worth something as salvage, heavy dense rocks are free !

Ideally to hold the most amount of heat within your thermal mass, the pipes should be deep within the mass, I have no problems with their way !

Ideally you should plan on doing a little every day, 10 cm -15 cm deep is enough to finish in a day, you want the pipes to be covered with 5cm -8 cm of Cob First,
before adding your other Heavy Dense materials !

You can take small green branches, 2cm-4cm, as long as possible the ends are stuck into the soft cob, and then the Green branches are woven together rather
like basket making, and then covered with more Cob Look up'' Wattle-and-Daub'', this makes a permanent back on your bench, and allows you to have warm air
circulating around your bench and not heating an outside wall !

Think like Fire, flow like a Gas, Don't be the Marshmallow ! As always your comments, and questions, are Solicited and Welcome! PYRO - Logically Big AL

Late note : you are going to want several clean outs , I can not tell until we have settled on a design, plan for your construction Good luck ! A. L.
 
Yiannis Ioannou
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The system with half barrel horizontal loading that i was referring was the one with two half barrels. This system has horizontal loading.
http://donkey32.proboards.com/thread/560/half-barrel-system .

The system for a restaurant/bar in NYC is the system that is best for me. Traditional rocket stove at the one side connected to thermal heat mass using half barrels. That system is great.
I don’t want to put barrels directly on my floor, any idea what to put first? Is it good to put 5-8 cm cob with straw first and then half barrels?
I read that straw is a good heat insulator and so we put straw only in cob under barrels but no in cob above barrels, do you agree?
Does firebricks that need to build heatriser are different from the firebricks of Burn chamber?
How to create a cleanout for ashes near burn chamber in the side of mass heater with half barrels?

I need help if anyone can help me, how to heat rooms of another floor. One solution that I think to use is with air ducts. If anyone else has any other idea is welcome.
Max please tell me your opinion for the following solutions:
The first solution is to pass air ducts through barrel. See picture:
Air ducts inside barrel
http://postimg.org/image/rygamiu7r/

The second solution is to pass air ducts outside barrel. See picture:
Air Ducts outside barrel
http://postimg.org/image/hn3xtv2if/



I agree it’s very important to remove the paint and oils from the barrels before use. Since iam going to use half barrel system for thermal mass, from what you said it will be better to remove paint from main barrel and the first half barrel of thermal mass, because heat may be high at this position. Do you agree?
If i understand well for the heat mass is good to put materials with high thermal conductivity and cob that holds heat for hours?

Tomorrow I will download the pdf file try to find all the materials and if I need more help I will contact again.
Thanks a lot , very useful information.
 
Satamax Antone
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Cob or concrete on ground before the half barrels, stick the barrels on top when wet.

No opinion on the pipes in or out the barrel, me not likey!

Heavy dense firebricks (half ones is best) for the feed tube and begining of the burn tunel, insulating firebricks for the rest if you can.
 
Yiannis Ioannou
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Max i have another few questions about half barrel system for a restaurant/bar in NYC.
Does wood round heat mass limits heat transfer? Is wood use only for aesthetic reasons.
Wood is very beautiful but does mass heater perform better leaving it without wood?
Any dimensions about the radius of the half circle that is cut on barrel for exhaust gasses?
(55 gallon Barrels)
Thanks
 
Yiannis Ioannou
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I paid for rocket mass heaters 3rd edition but i don't know how to download it.
Please help.
 
Satamax Antone
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Yiannis Ioannou wrote:Max i have another few questions about half barrel system for a restaurant/bar in NYC.
Does wood round heat mass limits heat transfer? Is wood use only for aesthetic reasons.
Wood is very beautiful but does mass heater perform better leaving it without wood?
Any dimensions about the radius of the half circle that is cut on barrel for exhaust gasses?
(55 gallon Barrels)
Thanks



Yanis, woodwise, wood is more insulative than cob. So, in this case, it was just used to hold the earth, which wasn't cob. Bout the cutout of barrel ennds, well, it all depends what you want to do! Make a bell, or several bells.
 
Yiannis Ioannou
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Max, by earth you mean soil and what type of soil. I think it's simpler for me for beginning to use earth for
my heat battery. The second question about barrels connection i mean the connection of the main barrel with
the first half barrel see picture: http://postimg.org/image/kiclxip4p/.
Make a bell you mean to connect only one half barrel and make several bells , you mean to connect several half barrels
with exhaust flue at the end to enlarge heat mass?
If I can’t heat Pergola and ground and first floor about 205m² I think to build a 6’’ system with 55gallon barrel to heat only my pergola or an 8’’ system with 55 gallon barrel to heat my pergola and ground floor. an area of 25+90=115m².

About the area that i want to heat.
Note my Pergola will be closed with vertical tents, see picture as example(not actual picture):http://postimg.org/image/owiskhn09/
Also pergola is located to South of house and all day is getting hot by sun.( at Cyprus we have sun about 300 days of the year).
The problem is mainly during night that temperature is between 3-10 degrees celcious.

Also in the following picture:http://postimg.org/image/llwq9h9rt/ you can see a schematic diagram with dimensions of the areas that I want to heat. Please advise me if it’s possible to heat Pergola and ground floor using a fan to push hot air from pergola to ground floor of my home through the door that connects them.

Soon i will let you know about the materials and sizes i can find locally.anks.
Thanks


 
Satamax Antone
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Yannis, a bell is a closed chamber that you heat. You can have either one, where the whole heat is distributed evenly across the whole surface, or have separate bells, where the first is hotter than the second, which in turn is hotter than the third etc.

For single bell, you cut all the barrels like this a 4.27



If you want several bells, you cut like this between barrel one and two, for example, but link barrel two and three with a cutout at the bottom instead. The cutout in this case should be system size or a little larger. Earth/soil/ground, all is equal to me.

The picture you showed of the barrel is the linkage between vertical barrel and the first horizontal one. Could be done differently. Without having the barrels inside the house, i doubt you could heat the house. About ISA of the bell for a 8 incher, i don't know. For a 6 incher, you can do 4 square metres. Which is about 4 half barrels. Let say you could have 8 half barrels with an 8 incher.
 
Yiannis Ioannou
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Max, what is ISA. The system for the restaurant/bar in NYC is 6'' or 8'' system?

My conclusion is, the best for me, is to build in pergola an easy constructed system to make some tests.
Possible System to heat my pergola:
6'' system build with firebricks and insulate with cob.
Thermal mass: 4 Half Barrels in wooden mold
wooden mold fill with earth
on the top of earth one inch sand
on the sand glue slate rocks using clay(Sand+portland Cement)

Questions:
1.What is better to use on top of thermal mass, slate rocks or ceramic tiles or .......?
2.What type of soil is better to use for thermal mass?
3.Do you suggest to implement P-Channel and tribwire.
4.For base layers please see photo below and tell me any suggestions?
http://postimg.org/image/t744l0mh7/

Also what is build felt? ernie and erica suggest to put it first on your floor.

Please make any other suggestions to improve the system.
Any suggestion is welcome.
Thanks.
 
Yiannis Ioannou
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Hi,
I have some questions.
I would like someone to help me how to build firebricks with Clay. What is the best
mixture and procedure? Is there any video or give me some info that will help me?

I've found in internet to use: 1 cup clay + 3 cup sand + 1 handfull straw.
A local ceramist told me to use 2cup clay + 1 cup red soil + 1/2 cup sand + straw
You can see the clay that i found in my area in following photos:
http://postimg.org/image/mq8gviy0v/
http://postimg.org/image/aabr1s4ov/


How to cut concrete tiles and steel barrel without angle grinder?
 
Satamax Antone
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yannis, i don't know much about clay! That stuff doesn't exist where i live!

Tho, there's one thing, i think firebricks need chamotte. You can make some easily by crushing roof tiles And there's aplenty of people wanting to get rid of old roof tiles in euroland usualy . For your thermal mass, use what you want, as long as it's heavy and dense, doesn't rot or emits noxious particles.

And yes use tripwire and P chanel.

One question, why make bricks? Where you live, i'm prety sure there's firebricks to be had secondhand for free or dead cheap.
 
Yiannis Ioannou
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No you didn't understand what i mean to build firebricks, i mean how to join firebricks together to build wood
feeder , burn tunel and heat riser. How to glue firebricks together.

Also i have another few questions that are not answered , so if Max or someone else can answer i will be very grateful
1.If i decide to use simple earth for heat mass what type of soil is better to use for thermal mass?
2.How to cut concrete tiles and steel barrel without angle grinder?
3.what is build felt , can you show me an example, where can i buy it?
4.Is there any problem if i build 8'' system with only 4 half barrels?
5.If i build RMH with firebricks , how can i construct tripwire?
 
Satamax Antone
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Yannis.

Any earth will do the job, better if it has high clay content. Add as much stones as you can. Pebbles are nice, because they're round ans mud can stick on the whole surface. Tamper as much as you can.

http://donkey32.proboards.com/thread/485/trip-wire

8 incher with just 4 half barrels is no good. You need more ISA (internal surface area) To extract the heat well, you need at least 6 or 7 half barrel aranged in a flue. May be you could get by with just the four aranged as separate bells, linked with bottom tubes. But you need flat low tubes. Otherwise you have just 10cm on top of the 8 inch tube which is working as a bell. Not much!

Cutting barrels is possible with a hacksaw blade, but takes forever. Bricks or tiles, with cold chisel, lump habmmer, trowel etc. But it takes skill, and many wasted bricks before you atain that skill.
 
Yiannis Ioannou
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Pepples you mean the small stones found near sea. What is the size, can you show me a picture?

What do you mean is no good to extract the heat well. What is the actual problem , the half barrel heat mass may overheat or i may loose heat through exhaust pipe or the burn may be incomplete and i may have too much smoke in exhaust pipe?

Does anyone try to cut barrels with a jigsaw?
Does anyone knows what is build felt , can you show me an example, where can i buy it?

 
Satamax Antone
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http://hof.povray.org/images/pebbles.jpg

Not enough heat exchange surface i you don't have enough barrels. You need aproximately 6 to 7 square metre heat exchange after an 8 incher rocket. You can go up to 9 in certain conditions. Jigsaw with proper blades works.

https://www.google.fr/search?q=building+felt&safe=off&rlz=1T4SAVJ_enFR550FR551&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=LLgZU5eFKIa47Abzv4HoDg&ved=0CC4QsAQ&biw=1216&bih=515

Yannis, please, do search; from time to time.

 
Yiannis Ioannou
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For the 8 inch system you din't answer my question. With not enough heat exchange surface , i would to tell me like if you know what will be the problems ?

I do a lot of search, but If you search for pebbles you see from very small to medium size. I think that is better to use medium size as the ones that you send me in photo because small size will have air in between them and so they will act as insulation. Do you agree with me?
Also for building felt, i hear this from Ernie and Erica video and is not a tar paper . In search you can see roof tar paper. I think it's kind of cloth to protect your wooden floor from the first layer of bricks.
Thanks for your patience.
 
Satamax Antone
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Well, patience i don't have anymore!

Pebbles from fist to head sized stones, but rounded, like that mud can stick to all surfaces. After, it's up to you to decide what you want to do. If you don't have enough heat exchange surface, you will waste heat, and therefor waste wood.

And if my building felt you don't like, you know what to do?


Search, search and search, untill your bleemin eyes peel and your fingers turn bloody!
 
Yiannis Ioannou
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Thanks a lot, sorry for any inconvenience.
Remember¨
Patience is bitter, but its fruit is sweet

be patient with the weaknesses of others

“Peace begins with a smile..”
― Mother Teresa
Thanks again
 
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https://permies.com/t/92034/permaculture-projects/days-natural-building-wofati-cob
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