Gifting economy

Hello,

I've been trying to motivate people to put effort into a gifting economy.  To me the permaculture ethics of earth care and people care lead to this.  Return our excess into earth care and people care leads to gifting.

So I attempted to do this with milk cows with a neighbor.  I tried to express the idea that if you want to join in with me on this then we will apply a few concepts with it all.  With baby females we will keep them and try to breed them true to type, keep them purebred.  With the males they can be banded and turned into beef.  But with the males talk with people doing this and see if we need any more bulls for breeding.  If any females are majorly problematic she can be turned into beef if you find it necessary.  Once you have more cows than you want gift your excess out to others and try to spread this idea.

As time went on the first neighbor I have tried this with started having problems.  They came up with hypotheticals and justifications to not commit to doing any of this.  Before this ever took place I let them know there is no penalties.  No punishment if you do not follow any of this.  the only mild penalty is a natural one, where anyone who does not follow this would just go down in priority to gift further cows to.

I don't want people to just take advantage of this.  For example just sell all the cows I gift.  I want people to desire these cows and treat them well.  The potential here is pretty great.  People can put more money and effort into the things needed to raise the cow rather than on the cow itself.  An extra $500-$3,000 going into a barn, hay, and whatever else is nice.  And for the person with the excess cows it is nice to be done with the labors towards a cow you don't need.  It seems like a win/win type of situation and keeping money out of it elevates the operation in my view.  Gifts are great.

Anyways, I'm throwing the gist of this idea on here to see all of your reactions.  If I were to gift you a cow and asked that you in turn would gift them when you don't want them anymore or have an excess of babies would you do that?  Would you feel this too burdensome and why?  Keep in mind the only punishment for not following this would be you might not get another free cow from me.  Is this fair?  Is this a good idea?  Would you like to be involved in this?  I'm trying to invite people I know to join in on this idea, so far it's been mediocre.  Would you join in?  If so maybe you can do this on your own and help the gifting society idea spread.

Food for thought anyways.

There's a psychology I've observed -- if it's offered free people think there must be a glitch -- something is wrong with it. Or, it's a sneaky obligation -- now I owe you something, and I'm uncomfortable with that. But if it's offered for half the going rate, paid in cash, they are thrilled about the incredible good deal. And they may reciprocate with good deals in the other direction. My 2c.

Douglas Alpenstock wrote:There's a psychology I've observed -- if it's offered free people think there must be a glitch -- something is wrong with it. Or, it's a sneaky obligation -- now I owe you something, and I'm uncomfortable with that. But if it's offered for half the going rate, paid in cash, they are thrilled about the incredible good deal. And they may reciprocate with good deals in the other direction. My 2c.

I get that and you are correct.  However I really want to keep money out of it, at least on my end.  It feels degrading to me involving money in this passion of mine.  It's like turning cows into slaves, they are my friends and I want that friendship shared not tainted with money.  I hope I'm not wrong on this, but I think the relationship that people build while laboring with a cow will build up the value of that cow in their mind.  Even if at first they are a little psychologically off on the whole thing.  But how to get over the initial resistance is tricky without using the normal systems people are used to -- money exchanges for something.

Welcome to the forum.

If you approached me with your idea I would be more comfortable with using the concept of sharing.

I willingly share with friends and neighbors though I am just not into gifting.

As Douglas suggested gifting might mean an exchange of gifts.  I willingly share not gift.

Anne Miller wrote:Welcome to the forum.

If you approached me with your idea I would be more comfortable with using the concept of sharing.

I willingly share with friends and neighbors though I am just not into gifting.

As Douglas suggested gifting might mean an exchange of gifts.  I willingly share not gift.

Do you think the word sharing might mean that the item or animal will be passed around?  What if I want to keep it for my family but we are sharing and then the person who shared it with me wants it back?

What about the word giving?  I'm giving this to you.  I invite you to join in on paying it forward with this item/animal if you no longer need it.  If it has babies it would be great if you considered giving it to someone who would appreciate it as well.

Do those ideas resonate with you all?

To me I am completely fine with gifts, charity, giving, sharing, and whatever other words.  I really like the idea of us moving past money and giving one to another in love and charity.  So how do I help move towards that?  What are the words that do not offend?

Lol.  I almost feel like an alien.  

What if some being from another planet who did not understand the worlds systems of exchange came here and wanted to gift things.  How would you teach them the correct language to do such a thing.  They refused to use money or barter as part of this.  But desired to help humanity move towards a gifting society, However they were completely open to changing those words if they were the incorrect language to help move forward.  They had a perpetual 3D printing machine (cows, chickens, turkeys) that only took grass and grains to operate and wanted to share the printed gifts with others.

Joseph I love your idea and your thinking.
I would absolutely participate, but I also can entirely envision your situation and both your desire to awaken interest in gifting and also perhaps some frustration with people who don't see it the same way.

I often do kind of 'feeling out' with friends and even clients and colleagues to see who i want to work with or spend effort on. If someone doesn't get it, then fine, it was a gift (and when it leaves my hands, it's out of my control). But sometimes the seed falls in the right soil, so to speak, and the whole idea sprouts beautifully. Sometimes it just takes the right person. I love what you're doing and hope you continue. Wish you were my neighbor, I'd make you some bread.

Tereza Okava wrote:Joseph I love your idea and your thinking.
I would absolutely participate, but I also can entirely envision your situation and both your desire to awaken interest in gifting and also perhaps some frustration with people who don't see it the same way.

I often do kind of 'feeling out' with friends and even clients and colleagues to see who i want to work with or spend effort on. If someone doesn't get it, then fine, it was a gift (and when it leaves my hands, it's out of my control). But sometimes the seed falls in the right soil, so to speak, and the whole idea sprouts beautifully. Sometimes it just takes the right person. I love what you're doing and hope you continue. Wish you were my neighbor, I'd make you some bread.

I share the same vision about all of this. We may be few, but we are here.

I have a related situation, though not nearly as complex as gifting cattle.

I scrounge and repair free hand tools, yard tools. The world is awash in it, literally drowning in this stuff. Shovels, rakes, hoes, loppers, etc. etc. I have the skills to restore them -- and the treasure hunt of finding them provides cheap entertainment.

But of course it's always slightly awkward when gifting these restored tools to neighbours. Most people are more comfortable with a transactional mindset.

So I'm thinking of an approach: for people who want to pay me, I'll say don't pay me, I don't really need the money, but flip a few dollars to the local food bank instead. Pay it forward to people who really need it, who don't have the resources I have. This adds value all around. And it's enough of a transaction to put people at ease.

What do you think? Is this a win-win approach?

Douglas Alpenstock wrote:I have a related situation, though not nearly as complex as gifting cattle...

I like your idea Douglas, that's an awesome skill to have.  I think that will likely work out well.  I think it could cross over to the idea I'm working on, but it might not have the results I'm hoping for.  It could be a part of it though.  

I've been mulling things over and talking with my wife and a friend a little more on the topic.  Still no solid plan on it all yet.  I'm going to try and write up some of the details and try to get my wording better.  I think part of the challenge is cultural and social, another funny thing is language.  So many words are loaded and bring to mind many things that don't flow together with this concept.

Today we talked about perhaps using words like.  "I'd like to gift this to.  I have hopes that..."  And go into some of the ideas tied to it all.  but I don't know.  I think with some people it might make sense and resonate and work well, and I think with some people it might get hung up on the details.  It's a fairly foreign idea.  A gift is a gift and typically has no real hopes tied to it.  My hopes are not bound to any contracts or punishments or anything like that, they are only hopes.  But without specifying those hopes I doubt much of it would have a chance to take place.  Charity is loaded with many people feeling like they are then needy which many people don't like.  Sharing, borrowing, lending, all feel like they aren't quite the right words either.  So far I'm at a loss for the best words to get the ideas across without triggering some people into thinking of it in a way I don't really mean.  I have not tried with all that many people yet, so it's still early and can be refined over time.

I've appreciated people's feedback it's been good food for thought.  I don't know if it can be overly simplified because there is a bit more to it with cows.  I'm hoping in time to get partners, or a team of sorts on this.  Breeding programs could flourish with more involved, and I really don't want it a monetary operation.  Of course I can just let others do whatever with selling and still have that.  But the overall point isn't about the cattle, it's about an alternative economy that is not based on money or even barter.  It's about a gifting society returning excess into earth care and people care.

It should be a fun adventure no matter how it turns out.  My hope is that I can find some that like it and it can blossom through example more than words.