I'm looking for advice/opinions on a Timber Framing project

In my earlier posts I had pictures of my shops,which i made myself.A potential customer saw them and asked if I could make her one.I've attached a picture of what they will be looking for.The barn will be 20'x30' with atleast a 9:12 pitch,with 4/4 boards under steel roof.. I'm looking for advice on how many bents and timber sizes to use.I'll be using either hemlock or larch should we procede with this.I know there are different grades of wood ,so just figure average with no serious knots.I'd like to stay at 8x8 or smaller if at all possible ,even if it means another bent.I'll most likely be putting this up by hand with a couple helpers.To keep their cost down some ,I'll be figuring on using draw peg jointery on the lower structure and most likely spiked or lagged roof structure.I'm thinking a queen post design on each bent to help support the cross beams,allowing for a free span inside.
I'll even consider paying someone to draw things up for me .This will be going up in upstate NY if that comes into play.Thanks in advance.

Hello Paul, et al,

Paul Ebert wrote:In my earlier posts I had pictures of my shops,which i made myself.A potential customer saw them and asked if I could make her one.

This type of query is coming up more and more each year from folks. In the past I have given probably more advice than I should have (as I have been told I shouldn't give it at all.) As soon as a move from "DIY" work to "commercial/residential" is made...an entirely new set of standards and understanding is required...for both legal and safety reasons.

The first thing I can say for sure Paul, if a contractor does not already know from experience all the questions posed (now or in the future) needs to have a PE be part of every project until they have acquired the experience to know them out of their head, and collected documents. I have been a Timberwright for over 35 years and would say that still more than 50% of my frames are signed off on by a PE (the same one I have worked with for almost that entire time.) A PE...especially one that is also a Timberwright themselves in good standing is a "must have," and not just any PE will give the project or client the best service.

Now...not to sound all gloom and doom (sorry for that by the way if the above reads that way.) This project presents as straightforward, common and rather a simple one. Should you choose to hire a designer/architect this will add cost (one of them much more than the other) and either way (if they are worth their salt) will insist on a PE signing of on the project. Now I (as well as several of my students...one being in N.Y. in the Albany area) does this type of work for and with clients and other contractors with less Timber Frame experience. I try to only be a "mentor" here at Permies, and not ever solicit work, yet your question is a "retail one," and now gets in to "pricing modalities" and other logistical aspects of the timber framing business.

So...we can (I don't mind and would rather like to) keep all this public for others to learn, or you can contact me at my links. I am sure your next question is, "How much?"

Professional/traditional Timberwright charge by set metrics of one form or another...usually board foot (which average for the frame as described, is about $5 to $10 per board foot materials included but not raising the frame usually) The other common metric (what we usually use...but not always) is by the square foot which starts at about $20 and goes up to $50 dollars...this may or may not include materials, raising, and other sundries to get to later.

Design fees are about 6% to 12% of "turn key value" very much like a real estate broker on most projects.

Hope that gives some insight, and/or things to consider.

thanks Jay.you gave me alot of information there.I appreciate it.I'm good with either keeping this here or going private.After all ,you didn't solicit me for the work originally.I did you.I'm going to talk to the person and get exactly what she wants as far as clear span or if we can figure a couple support posts inside for the two inner bents.I'll get back to you and we can go from there.
Just to be clear.:this is a 20x30 ft.=600sq.ft. add two 10 x20 lofts so a total 1000 sq.ft used for calculating price? ie: 1000 x 25 sq.ft.= $25000 including but plus roofing steel?I'm just doing the frame and roof.

Hey Paul,

Often we don't include the loft unless a complicated project. Smaller frames are often more expensive than larger frames as they have almost the same amount of joinery. So using our "square foot" metric the price range (depending on design) would land between $12K and $30K.

If they want a clear span on this frame I would suggest ether a double cord truss spanning the frame (Asian modality) and/or "king Post" truss...more European.

Just let me know what I may do. Keeping it here will be fun for folks.

Regards,

j

This is interesting..... I cheated! Bought a 30 X 32 post and beam barn from 2 guys who only wanted the siding. Took down frame, built new footing and foundation, re-erected barn, converted to our home. Even though the guys who took it down labeled stuff, we had at one point, to rely on the original Roman numerals pounded into the wood, to figure out what went where. THIS is a project I'd do differently if I could, but it all turned out well, and visitors claim to like it....Has been our home for 25 years... Good luck fellows! Best, TM

Well,We might not get too far.I talked with the potential customer and they may have unrealistic budget goals.
The good news is a pole under each of the inner bents is Ok,so smaller dimension timbers can be used.They're hoping for a max of $10k from the sounds of it.The materials alone will eat a lot of that figuring in the roofing materials and steel.We'll probably have to go with common rafters.I'll compare the prices of those and timber trusses and purlins.Now,that i know we can use a post under the long cross beams ,it's just a matter of over building everything .I tend to do that anyways.Meeting their budget may be the biggest challenge.
**Pardom my LACK of terminology here.
I'm thinking 8x8x10' for the 8 posts,8" x 8" x 8' for the support posts,6x8,6x6 or 8x8 for the almost 20' tie beams? 6x6 for the gerts between the bents[H 's]
4x4 for the angle braces[knee braces?] 4x6 x12' loft floor joists on 2' centers on each end.[open middle bay] 2x6 common rafters on 2' centers[if used] A 3x8 set of rafter plates on the side wall tops OR 6x6 for queen style trussses and 4x6 purlins,if we go this route. 4/4 roof boards.
This is the style of my shop build but quite a bit heavier overall.
Let the feedback begin.thanks

I'm curious about what specific things you need for planning this structure. You said you need to sort the frame, I'm assuming that you need to determine the truss details before you can suss out the remainder of the structure. I'm just guessing that you're looking for something like the following?